Grand Central Discussion

[devon_metro]

I notice that FGW is trying to sell me:

Tomorrow

LONDON KINGS CROSS 11:27 Train GRAND CENTRAL TRAINS SUNDERLAND 14:50

Full service finally arrived?

 

[1D53]

1127 KGX should be terminating at York tomorrow, unless they've gone to a full timetable without updating their website.

 

[Donny Dave]

It's still a limited service currently. I'm sure BOSCH or Sir_Clagalot will be along to confirm this though.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

David is correct. Also, if NRES or whoever tell you that the fare is 20 or so quid don't believe it, as that is the senior rate!! (booking offices are selling senior rate tickets to people in their twenties!!! )

 

[paul1609]

From the GC website;
* Weekend timings, particularly Sundays, are subject to variation due to essential track maintenance. More specific timetables will be available nearer to the operational start date.
when is the operational sate date then?

 

[matt]

David is correct. Also, if NRES or whoever tell you that the fare is 20 or so quid don't believe it, as that is the senior rate!! (booking offices are selling senior rate tickets to people in their twenties!!! )

Oh dear nationrail.co.uk is saying its £32 return London to York which as you say is a "Grand Central Standard Senior Return"

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

They have been told!! IIRC NRES finds the cheapest fare? But it doesnt differentiate between normal and senior rates! Needs sorting ASAP

 

[yorkie]

David is correct. Also, if NRES or whoever tell you that the fare is 20 or so quid don't believe it, as that is the senior rate!! (booking offices are selling senior rate tickets to people in their twenties!!! )

Oh dear, not sure how that can be fixed, but it needs fixing ASAP as it's a legally binding contract, and therefore has to be honoured.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I entered York to London single, with a Young persons railcard, on thetrainline and was able to book one of these tickets, on the screen where it tells you the validity of the ticket it simply states:-

Ticket: GRAND CENTRAL STD SENIOR SGL ticket This is a Single ticket
Route: This ticket allows travel on Grand Central services only
No. of adult passengers: 1
General Conditions: When refunds apply (see Ticket Restrictions) they are are subject to a cancellation fee of GBP10.00. Some ticket types carry further penalties for changes or refunds. When a change of journey is allowed (see Ticket Restrictions) they are subject to a charge of up to GBP10.00.

Nowhere does it say that the ticket is for seniors only, and it was allowed to be displayed with a YP card selected. GC would have to accept it as it's legally binding in consumer law.

I do have some serious concerns about GC ticketing policy, and it looks like my initial concerns were just the tip of the iceberg. Railcard holders will not be used to the idea that non-railcard holders over 60 can get cheaper fares than them, and all ticket issuing systems are not used to the idea that over 60s get half price travel without a railcard, so GC are attempting to do something that is not supported by the system, while not doing things that are expected of them by customers.

I also have had conflicting information from different people, I was told Savers were accepted without supplement during the Xmas period, by a friendly guard here, yet on the train I was told it wasn't valid, when in fact all Saver restrictions were lifted and this was endorsed and advertised by ATOC so GC had to follow suit. I wasn't charged extra because I was "let off" but it made me think that some guards have been misinformed and have a fundamental misunderstanding of how savers are priced (e.g. they would have to accept a Saver to/from Gretna as that is Code 8A - I will have to put them to the test some time!) I do not blame the on-board staff whatsoever, and I think GC overall is a great company, BUT the ticketing policy is a shambles and it needs sorting *ASAP* if GC is to be a success.

I am also very confused by the use of Mobix which is specifically designed for cheap singles, there are only 2 possibilities here 1) GC are planning cheap tickets despite saying they aren't (I hope they had a change of mind) or 2) again, a fundamental lack of understanding of ticketing.

If GC revised their ticket policy, they could really fill their trains a lot better instead of being empty even on days when NXEC are wedged.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

"Nowhere does it say that the ticket is for seniors only, and it was allowed to be displayed with a YP card selected. GC would have to accept it as it's legally binding in consumer law."

"Ticket: GRAND CENTRAL STD SENIOR SGL ticket This is a Single ticket"

Obvious enough for you?

ALL restrictions were lifted over the Christmas period. However, they are now back in force, so on the 0646, outward portions of SVR tickets are not valid, and on the 1650, RTN portions of SVRs are not valid, same for outward portions of Business SVR tickets. likewise railcards not valid. We had two guys on yesterday evening, KGX-DUR with YP railcards on SVR RTNs, they heard the announcement, and also admitted to having done it before!! "That'll be £xx please, each!"

 

[djw1981]

But how is a normal punter to know what that means. Senior is not a term widely used (in my experience) outside the rail industry - 'concessionary fares' is how they are described up here. Senior could be seen as an alternative for first class..

I o see Yorkie's point that by having a ticket based on age not entitlement card (railcard) the ticket does not fit the normal NRES search criteria. Interestingly the NX engine didnlt offer me that ticket type when I looked the other day. Possibly becasue I had not said I had a senior RC?

 

[Max]

Looks like the staff simply haven't been trained properly in ticketing restrictions! Even on the NYMR where I work staff have to be aware of a number of different ticket types, restrictions and discounts, so it's rather unencouraging that paid staff on mainline TOCs are unaware of key restrictions (or in this case, the lifting of restrictions!). The ticketing structure for GC appears to be a bit of a mess really. However, the problems with the senior tickets could in theory be fixed. Another 'railcard' needs adding to the system - advertised as something like 'tickets for 60+ travellers' with a note in the restrictions that it is only valid for people aged 60 and above. Of course there wouldn't be a physical 'railcard', but it would allow discounts to be applied with no confusion with tickets for normal passengers.

*EDIT*

Just to confirm, these senior singles are available in the system, however:

GRAND CENTRAL STANDARD SENIOR SINGLE
DESCRIPTION Standard Class Senior single valid on Grand Central services only.

BOOKING DEADLINES Walk-up ticket: can be purchased either in advance or on date of travel.

DISCOUNTS Only available to senior citizens over 60 - no railcard required.

REFUNDS If no seat available 50% discount off applicable single fare given immediately. Full refund minus the cancellation fee if wholly unused.

CHANGES TO TRAVEL PLAN Not applicable

CONDITIONS Single journey must be on the date of the ticket. Reservations are not essential but are recommended for longer journeys.

BREAK OF JOURNEY Break of journey is allowed, but travel is only permitted on GC services.

AVAILABILITY Available on all journeys.

VALIDITY Valid every day. No time restrictions.

So presumably people could be chinged for not reading the Ts & Cs? The validity needs to be made clearer in the ticket name really (ie 'Grand Central 60+ Single' or something like that).

 

[djw1981]

"We had two guys on yesterday evening, KGX-DUR with YP railcards on SVR RTNs, they heard the announcement, and also admitted to having done it before!! "That'll be £xx please, each!"

Do they change at York? Or just travel to Sunderland and grab a bus?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Looks like the staff simply haven't been trained properly in ticketing restrictions! Even on the NYMR where I work staff have to be aware of a number of different ticket types, restrictions and discounts, so it's rather unencouraging that paid staff on mainline TOCs are unaware of key restrictions (or in this case, the lifting of restrictions!). The ticketing structure for GC appears to be a bit of a mess really. However, the problems with the senior tickets could in theory be fixed. Another 'railcard' needs adding to the system - advertised as something like 'tickets for 60+ travellers' with a note in the restrictions that it is only valid for people aged 60 and above. Of course there wouldn't be a physical 'railcard', but it would allow discounts to be applied with no confusion with tickets for normal passengers.

Or given that pensioners get free local bus travel soon, ATOC / DfT could win a big publicity coup by giving a free senior RC to all pensioners. the cost would be not that high - basically just offering all pensioners 1/3 of most fares. Far too logical to happen though.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

Max, we have been well trained. We know our tickets, and our own booking office is due to open next week at River House, with our own staff. I know it is the booking office's job to sell the cheapest ticket, but surely if it comes up with SENIOR on the system, and it is obvious that the person buying the ticket is in their 20s... Why would people confuse Senior with 1st Class, when we have 1st Class tickets anyway?!

They were changing at York.

 

[djw1981]

Because no other TOC has tickets available to 'anyone' (ie not a customer with a Railcard) which are in fact limited by age. Except for children's tickets - and these are ubiquitous and thus well understood. GC is bringing a new type of ticket, and other TOC's / NRES staff cannot be expected to fully understand it.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

We're working on that one!

 

[Max]

Max, we have been well trained. We know our tickets, and our own booking office is due to open next week at River House, with our own staff.

But your staff clearly didn't know about the lifting of saver restrictions, when it was clearly publicised that this was the case! I'm not saying you haven't been trained, but clearly there has been a breakdown in communications.

As for the sale of senior singles to people in their twenties, clearly the TOCs haven't been informed properly by GC about the ticket validity. As it is different from the norm (ie no railcards needed) staff are probably unaware of the age restrictions. Really, a memo should have been sent to every booking office clearly informing them of the restrictions.

 

[djw1981]

If a TOC sells the senior ticket to a normal customer, can GC then charge an upgrade?

 

[Max]

If a TOC sells the senior ticket to a normal customer, can GC then charge an upgrade?

Could probably do an excess I would have thought - it's perfectly possible on the portable ticket machines.

 

[djw1981]

That will please teh customers who bought them innocently.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

Erm, yes we did. We do know that restrictions were lifted, and The Train Line and the booking offices were told of our ticketing arrangements. They are being re-briefed on GC tickets.

Excessing them is an option, but it is down to our discretion at the end of the day.

 

[yorkie]

So presumably people could be chinged for not reading the Ts & Cs? The validity needs to be made clearer in the ticket name really (ie 'Grand Central 60+ Single' or something like that).

No, I don't think so, because it does not display that restriction by default, also the customer can rightly say "but I selected a YP card..."!

We had two guys on yesterday evening, KGX-DUR with YP railcards on SVR RTNs, they heard the announcement, and also admitted to having done it before!! "That'll be £xx please, each!"

Well fair enough that's an excess on the RTN portion to a BVR, which was £14.25 before the fares change, probably £15ish now, was that what the charge was (each)? if so that's what I'd expect, and passengers cant complain at being asked for £15.

Max, we have been well trained. We know our tickets, and our own booking office is due to open next week at River House, with our own staff. I know it is the booking office's job to sell the cheapest ticket, but surely if it comes up with SENIOR on the system, and it is obvious that the person buying the ticket is in their 20s... Why would people confuse Senior with 1st Class, when we have 1st Class tickets anyway?!

If a TOC sells the senior ticket to a normal customer, can GC then charge an upgrade?

In response to both of these, YES I think it's poor that ticket office staff are not thoroughly checking on a new product, but I know from experience that ticket office staff are not always as well-trained as you'd think and do make mistakes. However, a contract is then entered into by the TOCs and the customer, which must be adhered to. It's an internal railway matter, and GC have every right to argue with the issuing office, but in consumer law I am pretty sure they would have no right to charge the customer any extra. (equally if I buy something from a shop, once it's bought the shop can't then come round to my house and demand I pay more because they made a mistake).

It is difficult to suggest a solution to the problem without understanding how the system works exactly, but GC need to liase with ATOC/thetrainline etc and find a way to ensure that the senior tickets are more clearly marked as for over 60s only with clear warnings and preferably not to offer them to people who are not over 60 (certainly they should not be offered to anyone selecting a YP railcard or child fare and yes, the senior fares are offered even if you select child on thetrainline!)

 

[Mojo]

Or given that pensioners get free local bus travel soon, ATOC / DfT could win a big publicity coup by giving a free senior RC to all pensioners. the cost would be not that high - basically just offering all pensioners 1/3 of most fares. Far too logical to happen though.

Free local bus travel is already compulsory. It's free national bus travel in England, and making it compulsory in Wales that the 2007 Act introduced.

The whole way this is being organised is an absolute shambles. There is uneven funding between local authorities and a general lack of funding meaning shortfalls which are generally over £500k having to come from local authorities budgets, meaning socially necessary or "congestion busting" transport services can't be subsidised to the full extent.

As well as that, the rebate to private operators is falling meaning operators have to raise fares for those who pay, whilst at the same time struggle to cope with the capacity problems on the select few routes where free travel is so popular the buses are bursting at the seams!

 

[adambro]

The whole "Senior" ticket idea is very poorly thought out. Why they haven't based any concessions on railcards is beyond me, it would make life so much easier for both the company and their customers. How on earth does anyone decide whether someone qualifies as over 60 if no rail card is required? What if the person at the ticket office believes I'm over 60 and sells a ticket only for the conductor to dispute it whilst the customer has no way of proving this as it appears none is required.

I've read some business about them not being a member of ATOC but as a customer I don't care for issues like these and expect a clear ticketing system whereby I aren't going to be charged an excess for buying a ticket which appears valid.

I'd hope to see GC introducing some fares which recognise that there must be reasons why pretty much all other operators offer cheap advance restricted fares. Anyone able to specify services and who is concerned about spending too much money will at the moment choose NXEC and GC will get nothing.

 

[BOSCH]

To buy a GC Senior ticket you must provide documentation that you are indeed 60+ when purchasing this ticket,this applies whether you buy at a travel centre or indeed onboard.

 

[richa2002]

Soo, what's the state of play with the amount of stock at Heaton and how soon will another diagram start?

 

[voyagerdude220]

I'd hope to see GC introducing some fares which recognise that there must be reasons why pretty much all other operators offer cheap advance restricted fares. Anyone able to specify services and who is concerned about spending too much money will at the moment choose NXEC and GC will get nothing.

Which is exactly why I wouldn't touch GC with a bargepole at the moment!

Sample fare comparison: (Adult Full Fare)- Based on Tuesday 29th January 2008: 11:00-12:30 timeframe

London to York NXEC- Cheapest Std= £11.25- 11:30/12:30 ex KGX
Cheapest FC= £36.50- 11:00/11:30/12:30 ex KGX

GC= Cheapest Std= £39.00- 11:27 ex KGX
Cheapest FC = £78.00- " " "

Notes:

* The above NXEC fares have NOT been discounted by 10%.
+ It should be noted that the GC walkup FC single is 20p less than the NXEC saver single.


I'd love to experience GC's service, with non-MTU PC's, but seeing i've got a YP railcard, which i can't use with GC tickets, and also, i know exactly which services i'd use, and so would be able to get an AP single, but because i'm not over 60, I can't do so.

TBH, I've always been sceptical about GC, and have always tried to give them a good chance to make me feel happy about GC being a success story.

Yes, it's great they're doing bussiness, providing a direct link between Sunderland, and selected intermediate stations to York and London, but I just can't help but feel that GC could be doing far better, if they sorted out their fares, and made it alot clearer to the public, exactly how much it costs.

I say this, because they do have that fare table on their website, but as we all know, the GC journey planner/fare system automatically shows senior fares, with or without a railcard.

Tip to GC: Why not do what Eurostar does- Specify the traveller's age, when requesting an adult ticket, so that people aged 60+ get the relevant discount online, and those booking in person can show the documents, as Bosch says.

 

[Donny Dave]

Which is exactly why I wouldn't touch GC with a bargepole at the moment!

Sample fare comparison: (Adult Full Fare)- Based on Tuesday 29th January 2008: 11:00-12:30 timeframe

London to York NXEC- Cheapest Std= £11.25- 11:30/12:30 ex KGX
Cheapest FC= £36.50- 11:00/11:30/12:30 ex KGX

GC= Cheapest Std= £39.00- 11:27 ex KGX
Cheapest FC = £78.00- " " "

Notes:

* The above NXEC fares have NOT been discounted by 10%.
+ It should be noted that the GC walkup FC single is 20p less than the NXEC saver single.

Now compare walk-up fares.

 

[paul1609]

What sort of loadings are Grand Central achieving north of York?

 

[adambro]

To buy a GC Senior ticket you must provide documentation that you are indeed 60+ when purchasing this ticket,this applies whether you buy at a travel centre or indeed onboard.

Like a Senior Railcard say? :roll:

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

A quick look on NRES gives:
CHEAPEST: £39 (GC)
OPEN: 99.50
Saver/Cheap Day: £122.50/219.00(!!)
These are SIngle fares based on a journey after 8am tomorrow morning

Pax numbers north of York southbound are picking up. The Sunday service seems to be well patonised.