Govia Thameslink first class penalty fare dispute

[RJ]

It would be far better to just permanently fix one carriage as first class and make the other end standard class.

It wouldn’t. At the moment the location of the first class area is consistent, it’s at the front of the train. Doing this would take that consistency away.

The best way to handle the minority who want to use the First Class without a valid ticket as some sort of protest is probably to get them to pay the fare, as was done with the person in the article.

 

[soil]

It wouldn’t. At the moment the location of the first class area is consistent, it’s at the front of the train. Doing this would take that consistency away.

The best way to handle the minority who want to use the First Class without a valid ticket as some sort of protest is probably to get them to pay the fare, as was done with the person in the article.

It isn't consistent, since this was a Thameslink train on a Great Northern service

 

[bramling]

The current system is confusing and puts people who don’t travel frequently at a disadvantage to those in the know.

What’s the issue with that? In any case, it would cause a load of problems if everyone flooded to declassified first.

It would be far better to just permanently fix one carriage as first class and make the other end standard class.

No it really wouldn’t, it would create problems, for no good reason.

The handful of people travelling first class can then refer to the platform boards to see which end of the platform they need to be at if they aren’t sure.

Given how Thameslink trains don’t always face the same way, I’m not convinced we’d ever reach a situation where the displays could guarantee to give this information reliably.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2024 ==

It isn't consistent, since this was a Thameslink train on a Great Northern service

This makes no odds at all. Users of the Peterborough line are well aware that class 700s turn up on King’s Cross services, and treat these in the same way as they do Thameslink services. This has been going on since May 18, and the vast majority of people seem to cope just fine. I really don’t get why things should need to change just on account of one soppy student.

 

[Lewisham2221]

The lads entire argument is seemingly not based around any genuine confusion, but simply that it's his belief that if GTR are going to let standard class ticket holders sit in a first class section, then they must allow standard class ticket holders to sit in all first class sections as there is no difference in the product being provided - plus a bit of "I'm a poor student" and "I'm dyslexic" thrown in for sympathy. Frankly, he comes across as bitter that first class exists in the first place.

Edit: To clarify, I'm not belittling the guys dyslexia. It's just the way he throws into the ring towards the end, after spending ages ranting about the seats being the same at the front and the rear.

 

[jon0844]

I assume that was thrown in after realising he wasn't getting the sympathy he wanted.

And having the Telegraph writing about you isn't the win you think it is either!

 

[rocrat]

Is there a way for us to write a consensus email to say, yes, we agree with you GTR. I regularly use this service the full length Cambridge to Brighton, and I'd change in London if this got removed as the lack of sockets in standard is unhelpful at best...

 

[bramling]

Is there a way for us to write a consensus email to say, yes, we agree with you GTR. I regularly use this service the full length Cambridge to Brighton, and I'd change in London if this got removed as the lack of sockets in standard is unhelpful at best...

I wouldn’t worry about it, as I can’t see anything changing off the back of this.

The bigger issue is the horrible standard class on the 700s. If the whole train was done out like first is then they wouldn’t be nearly as bad.

 

[soil]

I assume that was thrown in after realising he wasn't getting the sympathy he wanted.

No, the reaction is about 95% in his favour.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Zero sympathy, and the usual railway-bashing rags (Hello Manchester Evening News! and one specific reporter in particular) have ran with it. Don’t sit in First Class with a Standard ticket. If in doubt, be safe and don’t sit there…

 

[bramling]

Zero sympathy, and the usual railway-bashing rags (Hello Manchester Evening News! and one specific reporter in particular) have ran with it. Don’t sit in First Class with a Standard ticket. If in doubt, be safe and don’t sit there…

Why is Manchester Evening News running with a story about a Peterborough-London train?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I’ve never heard it either, but I mention it because that does appear to be the person’s claim

I’d say he was lying, or at the very least wilfully misrepresenting what he was told. Fascinating that he took a photo of the sign at the rear of the train prove his point.

Again, just a chancer and I have no sympathy.

I still maintain that having first class on commuter trains is ludicrous though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Dec 2024 ==

Why is Manchester Evening News running with a story about a Peterborough-London train?

Retch plc have centralised their clickbait factories.

 

[jon0844]

No, the reaction is about 95% in his favour.

Why though? Are people of the opinion they should be allowed to sit in first class? Do they think it's unfair to have a higher class that excludes them? Do they feel that way on a plane too? Do they go to football or a theatre and demand to sit in a hospitality box?

If the complaint was to be taken seriously, it would likely be that first class would be enforced at both ends of the 700 to be consistent with other rolling stock and remove any chance of confusion (except there is no confusion; anyone who didn't know about declassification wouldn't be there in the first place).

Or is it that someone who HAS paid for first class might feel aggrieved that they opted to sit in the declassified portion which was full of people who hadn't paid the extra? If they got a seat, is it a problem? Should they get a refund as they didn't sit in an actual first class coach? Again, the solution is to not declassify it - so now the 'hack' won't work for anyone and thank you very much Mr Want-to-get-famous-for-15-minutes guy.

The DfT isn't going to fund removing those seats and replacing with regular standard class seats, and as has been stated above, the DfT must feel there's a market for first class on some of these routes. On others, first class is declassified just as happens daily on loads of services throughout the country and did on FCC and WAGN before GTR on the ECML.

Why no fuss about all the trains you can look up on OpenTrainTimes or RealTimeTrains and see as having no first class?

The dumbest thing is that this guy KNEW the score, yet seems to have gone out of his way to do something that resulted in this outcome - so must have done it to get famous and go viral, and I really can't believe 95% of people are supporting him. Even if they are in some way to 'stick it to the railway' I am convinced none of them are sitting themselves at the front of a 700 waiting for a revenue check.

 

[bramling]

Why though? Are people of the opinion they should be allowed to sit in first class? Do they think it's unfair to have a higher class that excludes them? Do they feel that way on a plane too? Do they go to football or a theatre and demand to sit in a hospitality box?

If the complaint was to be taken seriously, it would likely be that first class would be enforced at both ends of the 700 to be consistent with other rolling stock and remove any chance of confusion (except there is no confusion; anyone who didn't know about declassification wouldn't be there in the first place).

Or is it that someone who HAS paid for first class might feel aggrieved that they opted to sit in the declassified portion which was full of people who hadn't paid the extra? If they got a seat, is it a problem? Should they get a refund as they didn't sit in an actual first class coach? Again, the solution is to not declassify it - so now the 'hack' won't work for anyone and thank you very much Mr Want-to-get-famous-for-15-minutes guy.

The DfT isn't going to fund removing those seats and replacing with regular standard class seats, and as has been stated above, the DfT must feel there's a market for first class on some of these routes. On others, first class is declassified just as happens daily on loads of services throughout the country and did on FCC and WAGN before GTR on the ECML.

Why no fuss about all the trains you can look up on OpenTrainTimes or RealTimeTrains and see as having no first class?

The dumbest thing is that this guy KNEW the score, yet seems to have gone out of his way to do something that resulted in this outcome - so must have done it to get famous and go viral, and I really can't believe 95% of people are supporting him. Even if they are in some way to 'stick it to the railway' I am convinced none of them are sitting themselves at the front of a 700 waiting for a revenue check.

Perfectly put. I just don’t see what all the fuss is about on this one.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why though?

Because the railway is full of arcane rules and has attracted a reputation for being rapacious and unfriendly in order to make up its funding shortfall. It doesn’t matter too much what the facts are, the railway has an image problem, and that matters more.

 

[bramling]

Because the railway is full of arcane rules and has attracted a reputation for being rapacious and unfriendly in order to make up its funding shortfall. It doesn’t matter too much what the facts are, the railway has an image problem, and that matters more.

I don’t disagree with the notion that the industry has become increasingly hostile when it comes to going after soft targets, and I don’t think they should be doing that to the extent they often now do.

But I don’t agree this is one such case - the guy seems to have tried it on, either because he couldn’t get a seat, or perhaps he fancied a superior one. He’d have ended up with a similar outcome in many other facets of life. I’d say the bigger issue here is his lack of life experience and poor judgement.

And it isn’t like his penalty fare was massive.

 

[jon0844]

As someone who enjoys being able to sit in 'first class' on 700s, I would be rather upset if he ends up getting the benefit removed for everyone else.

Trains with first class areas that aren't in use have existed for decades and anyone who does some research can benefit, while others are going to have no idea.

A more important issue would be the 387s going around with a very poorly advertised first class compartment, with many seats missing the antimacassars entirely and the '1' stickers having been peeled off the windows.

 

[soil]

Why though? Are people of the opinion they should be allowed to sit in first class? Do they think it's unfair to have a higher class that excludes them? Do they feel that way on a plane too? Do they go to football or a theatre and demand to sit in a hospitality box?

Specifically, it seems people think that the rules are complicated and unclear, with 'first class' not being first class depending on route and train.

 

[Haywain]

Specifically, it seems people think that the rules are complicated and unclear, with 'first class' not being first class depending on route and train.

Some people, there are plenty who have no problem understanding the system, such as the guy in the article. His problem was not the "confusing" system but getting caught and issued a Penalty fare.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Why is Manchester Evening News running with a story about a Peterborough-London train?

There is one journalist at the MEN who ran with a story about Northern & railcards, got a load of press off it and now thinks it’s his god given right to crusade against the railway basically

 

[Lewisham2221]

Specifically, it seems people think that the rules are complicated and unclear, with 'first class' not being first class depending on route and train.

Much of his "support" falls into three categories:

• People claiming that the first class/declassified situation is confusing. They are literally acknowledging that they are confused about when they can and can't sit in which first class section; simple solution - don't sit there at all!
• I've bought a ticket, I will sit wherever I like.
• You've not broken any laws. You don't have to give anybody your details. You don't have to pay anything. Ignore everything and it will all go away. Send a cease and desist notice.

So, basically, all his support is from people who don't know what they're on about. From his Twitter X account, he seems to be into politics and/or journalism - and this just seems to be an attempt to generate a lot of noise about something and try and make a name for himself.

 

[soil]

There is one journalist at the MEN who ran with a story about Northern & railcards, got a load of press off it and now thinks it’s his god given right to crusade against the railway basically

AKA 'the journalist who exposed Northern illegally prosecuting tens of thousands of people'.

 

[dodecahedron67]

AKA 'the journalist who exposed Northern illegally prosecuting tens of thousands of people'.

Exposed is a bit of a big word. Stumbled across a metaphorical pot of gold might be better. Doesn’t make his other “work” any more credible

 

[Tetchytyke]

AKA 'the journalist who exposed Northern illegally prosecuting tens of thousands of people'.

No, that was Tristan Kirk at the Evening Standard and his target was the Single Justice Procedure not just the railway's use of it.

There is one journalist at the MEN who ran with a story about Northern & railcards, got a load of press off it and now thinks it’s his god given right to crusade against the railway basically

That journalist works for a publisher that uses online engagement with articles as a key performance metric.

If they are reporting on these matters it is because the readers want to read about these matters and it is because the readers feel strongly about these matters.

The railway, as an industry, really does need to consider why this might be the case.

 

[WesternLancer]

AKA 'the journalist who exposed Northern illegally prosecuting tens of thousands of people'.

wasn't that actually a member of this forum who got that to happen (as opposed to the person who then reported it of course...)

 

[AlterEgo]

I don’t disagree with the notion that the industry has become increasingly hostile when it comes to going after soft targets, and I don’t think they should be doing that to the extent they often now do.

But I don’t agree this is one such case - the guy seems to have tried it on, either because he couldn’t get a seat, or perhaps he fancied a superior one. He’d have ended up with a similar outcome in many other facets of life. I’d say the bigger issue here is his lack of life experience and poor judgement.

And it isn’t like his penalty fare was massive.

Oh I'm fairly certain this guy was indeed trying it on - just explaining why the public seem to be supporting him, if only on Twitter.

 

[soil]

wasn't that actually a member of this forum who got that to happen (as opposed to the person who then reported it of course...)

He's written about various issues, but this one was where he first went viral

x.com

x.com

Realised I forgot my portable charger so asked if there's a way to get my return portion of my
@northernassist
printed off in case my phone dies.

Apparently there is not, so I'm just going to put this here for posterity to show I tried to do the right thing

 

[The_Train]

The PIS screens are not clear at all. You have to wait in the rear carriage for it to cycle through all sorts of nonsense before you’d notice the message saying standard class ticket holders can sit there and I imagine the front carriage is similar.

Like everything else on the railway it is unnecessarily complicated and designed to catch customers out

Thameslink should have the same policy on all their trains.

Or instead of waiting for this long process of the PIS screen cycling round, you could spend 20 seconds googling it. You don't even have to leave the Google results page to find the answer

AKA 'the journalist who exposed Northern illegally prosecuting tens of thousands of people'.

No, the one who has basically given free reign to anyone using the time restricted teen/youth railcards to go and pick a later train on their ticketing app at a cheaper price and travel earlier in the day to avoid the min price!

 

[FOH]

Oh I'm fairly certain this guy was indeed trying it on - just explaining why the public seem to be supporting him, if only on Twitter.

You defended him in post #3

 

[AlterEgo]

You defended him in post #3

Imagine reading people's posts on an internet forum and simply changing your opinion on something as things are pointed out to you instead of trying to score Internet Points.

 

[Cdd89]

Oh I'm fairly certain this guy was indeed trying it on - just explaining why the public seem to be supporting him, if only on Twitter.

Indeed, perhaps there's a reason why despite being aware of the forum and tagging the forum's Twitter account, he hasn't actually come here for advice.

To be fair, attempting to cause a PR stink for the TOC via sympathetic journalists is probably the best solution when you're bang to rights. Slightly surprised GTR haven't relented tbh.