GEML franchise 2016

[DasLunatic]

The size of them are way beyond our small loading gauge...

I'm not so sure.

The V250 is 2.87m wide by 201m long. This is just 5mm wider than a 321, and fits within a W9 loading gauge, which is the gauge provided from London all the way to Norwich. I also assume that Breda have fixed the trains in the three years they've been out of use...

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I'm not so sure.

The V250 is 4.08m tall by 2.87m wide by 201m long. This is just 5mm wider than a 321, and fits within a W9 loading gauge, which is the gauge provided from London all the way to Norwich. I also assume that Breda have fixed the trains in the three years they've been out of use...

Kinematic envelope issues may well come into play.

What's the carriage overhang, what's the vehicle end throw, what's the cross sectional profile, what's the underfloor taper like etc.

 

[J-2739]

I'm not so sure.

The V250 is 4.08m tall by 2.87m wide by 201m long. This is just 5mm wider than a 321, and fits within a W9 loading gauge, which is the gauge provided from London all the way to Norwich. I also assume that Breda have fixed the trains in the three years they've been out of use...

It's not only width, it's also the length.The length of the driving car is nearly 27m, the intermediate ones 24.5m with a width of 2.87m. Compare that to the Hitachi Super Express, which has car lengths of 26m and a width of 2.7m.

It wouldn't work, its too oversized, it would give off a massive overhang, not healthy for tunnels and probably rip the train in pieces.

They are also taller than the standard British unit and will need modifications to the overhead wire and you can't just do that because the railway is not a 'giant lego set'.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I'm not so sure.

The V250 is 2.87m wide by 201m long. This is just 5mm wider than a 321, and fits within a W9 loading gauge, which is the gauge provided from London all the way to Norwich. I also assume that Breda have fixed the trains in the three years they've been out of use...

The bigger issue is that the GB loading gauge is narrower below platform level. All sorts of things have been put in the platform space across the network so it wouldn't even be a matter of rebuilding just the platforms.

 

[samuelmorris]

I think the concept itself is a way out of the question anyway for all sorts of reasons, but if by some magic they could be made to work, looking at the history of the V250s I wouldn't want them anywhere near the UK network. With the order officially cancelled there's no obligation for AB to have them rectified unless they have another buyer, which i see no evidence of. Based on their past reputation the units are probably turning to rot at an alarming speed. An utter waste as I'm sure a lot of people worked very hard on those units but with more than three years since their withdrawal, I can't see them ever being used again, I suspect the product is destined to be a railway industry white elephant.

 

[J-2739]

I think the concept itself is a way out of the question anyway for all sorts of reasons, but if by some magic they could be made to work, looking at the history of the V250s I wouldn't want them anywhere near the UK network. With the order officially cancelled there's no obligation for AB to have them rectified unless they have another buyer, which i see no evidence of. Based on their past reputation the units are probably turning to rot at an alarming speed. An utter waste as I'm sure a lot of people worked very hard on those unitsbut with more than three years since their withdrawal, I can't see them ever being used again, I suspect the product is destined to be a railway industry white elephant.

I doubt they were even trying with the design. That thing is a pretty ugly beast to me.

 

[samuelmorris]

Yeah it looks very outdated, both inside and out in my opinion, though there are plenty of relatively high quality trains out there that I think many would say are ugly (things like the Class 380 come to mind). My point is that just because a project was a catastrophe doesn't mean every single member of its team was slacking off - hence the word 'some'

 

[J-2739]

Yeah it looks very outdated, both inside and out in my opinion, though there are plenty of relatively high quality trains out there that I think many would say are ugly (things like the Class 380 come to mind). My point is that just because a project was a catastrophe doesn't mean every single member of its team was slacking off - hence the word 'some'

To be fair, the 380's look rather neat with the curved front and sleek headlamps. The ones that really disgust me on this network are the ones with flat ends (444, plastic pigs)

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I think the concept itself is a way out of the question anyway for all sorts of reasons, but if by some magic they could be made to work, looking at the history of the V250s I wouldn't want them anywhere near the UK network. With the order officially cancelled there's no obligation for AB to have them rectified unless they have another buyer, which i see no evidence of. Based on their past reputation the units are probably turning to rot at an alarming speed. An utter waste as I'm sure a lot of people worked very hard on those units but with more than three years since their withdrawal, I can't see them ever being used again, I suspect the product is destined to be a railway industry white elephant.

There's no AnsaldoBreda anymore, it's now Hitachi Rail Italy, and they've not pursued the V250 range. If the units don't go for scrap, they might be used as demonstrators for things like the HS2 rolling stock order.

 

[J-2739]

There's no AnsaldoBreda anymore, it's now Hitachi Rail Italy, and they've not pursued the V250 range. If the units don't go for scrap, they might be used as demonstrators for things like the HS2 rolling stock order.

A withdrawn TGV Sud-est set probably has a higher chance of being a demonstrator for HS2 than the V250. I honestly see zero-future in that thing.

 

[chubs]

Somebody would have to be completely insane to take on the V250's. The catalogue of faults was horrendous, for some units it ran into the hundreds! If NS decided it wasn't feasible to have them brought up to standard then that is pretty damning evidence.

 

[LAX54]

It's not only width, it's also the length.The length of the driving car is nearly 27m, the intermediate ones 24.5m with a width of 2.87m. Compare that to the Hitachi Super Express, which has car lengths of 26m and a width of 2.7m.

It wouldn't work, its too oversized, it would give off a massive overhang, not healthy for tunnels and probably rip the train in pieces.

They are also taller than the standard British unit and will need modifications to the overhead wire and you can't just do that because the railway is not a 'giant lego set'.

Even NC64 set had to be modified before AGA could use it, until then, it ran as an 'X' when it moved when ECS, even 360's are barred over quite a bit of the Anglia Region

 

[Philip Phlopp]

A withdrawn TGV Sud-est set probably has a higher chance of being a demonstrator for HS2 than the V250. I honestly see zero-future in that thing.

The bodyshells are perfect for demonstrating seating and interior fit out options, catering options and for static testing of air conditioning, doors, PIS systems, that sort of thing.

 

[306024]

Somebody would have to be completely insane to take on the V250's. The catalogue of faults was horrendous, for some units it ran into the hundreds! If NS decided it wasn't feasible to have them brought up to standard then that is pretty damning evidence.

So we're in with a chance then

The GEML has a history of cast offs. All we need is a modern class 309, though something less suitable will doubtless be ordered.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

So we're in with a chance then

The GEML has a history of cast offs. All we need is a modern class 309, though something less suitable will doubtless be ordered.

Class 230s?

 

[J-2739]

There are very few trains in use outside of GB that would fit our loading gauge. There are passenger trains in use in South Africa and Thailand which were based on GB designs, while some of the GB-compatible Eurostar sets ended up in use on domestic TGV services. Compatible locomotives aren't as uncommon since there's no real reason to redesign a GB locomotive for use elsewhere.

Even the Thailand units (class 360 variety) wouldn't fit due to them having larger roof-mounted equipment pods.

Class 230s?

Oh don't you start!

 

[asylumxl]

The bodyshells are perfect for demonstrating seating and interior fit out options, catering options and for static testing of air conditioning, doors, PIS systems, that sort of thing.

Even the body shells had all kinds of issues. They're only good for scrap.

 

[TheEdge]

There is always the elephant, or maybe pig, in the corner we could have over here...

 

[Mordac]

Even the body shells had all kinds of issues. They're only good for scrap.

Fire training?

 

[asylumxl]

Fire training?

They're great for that. They set themselves on fire sometimes.

 

[J-2739]

They're great for that. They set themselves on fire sometimes.

That's assuming they're bare 'n broken

 

[dsc17]

Noticed yesterday that the 321 refurb unit and demonstrator were on GEML yesterday on trials, maybe an indication that an announcement is due

 

[northwichcat]

Noticed yesterday that the 321 refurb unit and demonstrator were on GEML yesterday on trials, maybe an indication that an announcement is due

I doubt that would mean an announcement is due, it's more likely to mean DfT have allowed bids to be revised with alternatives being examined.

 

[dk1]

Noticed yesterday that the 321 refurb unit and demonstrator were on GEML yesterday on trials, maybe an indication that an announcement is due

Ready for introduction on WA?

 

[Dave1987]

I've given up with rumours as apart from the delay in the announcement all of them have been false. But if you do like a good rumour the latest from a management type person is we should hear either way by mid August. I'm certainly starting to believe another extension is around the corner. I think there will be a few very unpopular MP's in the East if that does happen considering all the PR they have put out about the new franchise. Then again considering most of them campaigned in favour of Brexit then I think it's good comeuppance for them. With the uncertainty of the next few years I don't think any company would want to on the massive bill for the new fleet that's expected.

 

[northwichcat]

I've given up with rumours as apart from the delay in the announcement all of them have been false. But if you do like a good rumour the latest from a management type person is we should hear either way by mid August. I'm certainly starting to believe another extension is around the corner. I think there will be a few very unpopular MP's in the East if that does happen considering all the PR they have put out about the new franchise. Then again considering most of them campaigned in favour of Brexit then I think it's good comeuppance for them. With the uncertainty of the next few years I don't think any company would want to on the massive bill for the new fleet that's expected.

One rumour is one of the bidders proposed replacing every train in the Anglia fleet. We don't know if that's true or not - one consistent DMU fleet and releasing DMUs for bidders of other franchises like LM and EMT had logic to it, one consistent EMU fleet and having 94 x 321s off-lease doesn't. However, if someone has submitted a bid which includes replacing 321s it doesn't sound illogical that they want to reconsider and state Brexit for wanting to reconsider.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

One rumour is one of the bidders proposed replacing every train in the Anglia fleet. We don't know if that's true or not - one consistent DMU fleet and releasing DMUs for bidders of other franchises like LM and EMT had logic to it, one consistent EMU fleet and having 94 x 321s off-lease doesn't. However, if someone has submitted a bid which includes replacing 321s it doesn't sound illogical that they want to reconsider and state Brexit for wanting to reconsider.

Greater Anglia needs a clear out, it's just a mess in terms of stock. What possessed National Express to order Electrostars instead of Class 350 Desiro stock, for example ?

You would need to accept some stock being scrapped - probably all of the Class 317 units, but we're at that stage already, aren't we. We've certainly accepted they're expendable. The Class 321 stock, as you say, is an issue.

The only thing I can think of is for the 94 x Class 321 units to re-tractioned and re-geared to 75mph, working in pairs for the South Wales Valleys, 8 x 20m platforms rather than the proposed 6 x 23m might be do-able and you get something fairly similar to the Glasgow Class 320 units (albeit a coach longer per unit) which would work well there.

I'd assume you would send the Class 360 units to London Midland, the 21 Class 360 units from Greater Anglia plus the 5 from Heathrow Connect/Express could either provide additional capacity, or maybe even release the dual voltage Class 350/1 fleet for South West Trains, adding in some additional flexibility if there's to be any progress on schemes such as the North Downs electrification at 25kV AC.

The remainder of the fleet at Greater Anglia would presumably then be backfilled by Bombardier EMU stock, a mixture of 5 x 23m 125mph stock and 4 x 20m 100mph/110mph stock, all of which is compatible with the existing Class 379 units.

DMU stock - do you dump a new CAF fleet at Greater Anglia, or do you infill the missing electrification and expand the EMU fleet instead, or a combination of both so as infill electrification makes the new CAF stock redundant, it can transfer to Northern, allowing older stock to be replaced ?

It's all terribly expensive though, very dependent on works capacity, and ultimately needs decisions on electrification which aren't going to come soon enough to make it all fall into place, even if someone was that ambitious.

 

[grumblingalong]

Rumour is that, with an Abellio win, Alstom are the preferred manufacturer for any new stock.

 

[BuryBlue]

Greater Anglia needs a clear out, it's just a mess in terms of stock. What possessed National Express to order Electrostars instead of Class 350 Desiro stock, for example ?

You would need to accept some stock being scrapped - probably all of the Class 317 units, but we're at that stage already, aren't we. We've certainly accepted they're expendable. The Class 321 stock, as you say, is an issue.

The only thing I can think of is for the 94 x Class 321 units to re-tractioned and re-geared to 75mph, working in pairs for the South Wales Valleys, 8 x 20m platforms rather than the proposed 6 x 23m might be do-able and you get something fairly similar to the Glasgow Class 320 units (albeit a coach longer per unit) which would work well there.

I'd assume you would send the Class 360 units to London Midland, the 21 Class 360 units from Greater Anglia plus the 5 from Heathrow Connect/Express could either provide additional capacity, or maybe even release the dual voltage Class 350/1 fleet for South West Trains, adding in some additional flexibility if there's to be any progress on schemes such as the North Downs electrification at 25kV AC.

The remainder of the fleet at Greater Anglia would presumably then be backfilled by Bombardier EMU stock, a mixture of 5 x 23m 125mph stock and 4 x 20m 100mph/110mph stock, all of which is compatible with the existing Class 379 units.

DMU stock - do you dump a new CAF fleet at Greater Anglia, or do you infill the missing electrification and expand the EMU fleet instead, or a combination of both so as infill electrification makes the new CAF stock redundant, it can transfer to Northern, allowing older stock to be replaced ?

It's all terribly expensive though, very dependent on works capacity, and ultimately needs decisions on electrification which aren't going to come soon enough to make it all fall into place, even if someone was that ambitious.

It would be nice to see the 153's banished once and for all, have to say. I can't see electrification being particularly challenging, either. However maybe some displaced DMUs should stay with Anglia to strengthen services elsewhere.

 

[Dave1987]

Greater Anglia needs a clear out, it's just a mess in terms of stock. What possessed National Express to order Electrostars instead of Class 350 Desiro stock, for example ?

You would need to accept some stock being scrapped - probably all of the Class 317 units, but we're at that stage already, aren't we. We've certainly accepted they're expendable. The Class 321 stock, as you say, is an issue.

The only thing I can think of is for the 94 x Class 321 units to re-tractioned and re-geared to 75mph, working in pairs for the South Wales Valleys, 8 x 20m platforms rather than the proposed 6 x 23m might be do-able and you get something fairly similar to the Glasgow Class 320 units (albeit a coach longer per unit) which would work well there.

I'd assume you would send the Class 360 units to London Midland, the 21 Class 360 units from Greater Anglia plus the 5 from Heathrow Connect/Express could either provide additional capacity, or maybe even release the dual voltage Class 350/1 fleet for South West Trains, adding in some additional flexibility if there's to be any progress on schemes such as the North Downs electrification at 25kV AC.

The remainder of the fleet at Greater Anglia would presumably then be backfilled by Bombardier EMU stock, a mixture of 5 x 23m 125mph stock and 4 x 20m 100mph/110mph stock, all of which is compatible with the existing Class 379 units.

DMU stock - do you dump a new CAF fleet at Greater Anglia, or do you infill the missing electrification and expand the EMU fleet instead, or a combination of both so as infill electrification makes the new CAF stock redundant, it can transfer to Northern, allowing older stock to be replaced ?

It's all terribly expensive though, very dependent on works capacity, and ultimately needs decisions on electrification which aren't going to come soon enough to make it all fall into place, even if someone was that ambitious.

Mr RF's sources from the train manufacturers were certainly under the impression that there was going to be large orders placed for a variety of stock. But in the latest column he has pointed out that Brexit will have a pretty significant impact on the cost of trains and future growth in revenues. I believe the whole 321 refurb/retraction is a bit of a red herring from what I've heard from some of the fitters. It's all a complete mess. If there is another extension I would be interested to hear the response from the MP's, especially considering a lot of Tory seats are not 'safe seats'.