Future of 22x Units

[krus_aragon]

Were the 170s likely to be cascaded anywhere?

Northern have got loads of 15x units that will need replacing during the coming years. If some 22x units displace 170s, they won't go wanting.

 

[Class455]

Of course, yes, that will reduce it a little, but even so there aren't many of those.
Were the 170s likely to be cascaded anywhere? I know use of longer trains was ruled out for the Stansted services but not sure about Cardiff.

Why was this ruled out?

 

[krus_aragon]

Why was this ruled out?

Issues of platform length at Stansted. The only platforms that are long enough to take a Voyager are currently in use by other services; the 170s use a smaller bay platform instead.

 

[greatvoyager]

Northern have got loads of 15x units that will need replacing during the coming years. If some 22x units displace 170s, they won't go wanting.

That's true.

 

[Class455]

Issues of platform length at Stansted. The only platforms that are long enough to take a Voyager are currently in use by other services; the 170s use a smaller bay platform instead.

I've never been down that way before so I wouldn't know too much about this but couldn't they extend that bay platform at Stansted to at least be able to accommodate a 5 car Super Voyager?
Another thingXC could also use the additional stock for if they were to get both the ex Avanti 221's and all 222's is to launch new services to the south east, as it's the only part of the country they don't serve. They could relaunch the Brighton route and if they really didn't want to run through London they can always extend existing Reading services via the North Downs Line to call at Guildford, Redhill (for passengers to connect with stations towards London) Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges and Brighton. They could also do with running something on the South Eastern Network, such as down to Canterbury, Margate or Ramsgate.

 

[greatvoyager]

I've never been down that way before so I wouldn't know too much about this but couldn't they extend that bay platform at Stansted to at least be able to accommodate a 5 car Super Voyager?
Another thingXC could also use the additional stock for if they were to get both the ex Avanti 221's and all 222's is to launch new services to the south east, as it's the only part of the country they don't serve. They could relaunch the Brighton route and if they really didn't want to run through London they can always extend existing Reading services via the North Downs Line to call at Guildford, Redhill (for passengers to connect with stations towards London) Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges and Brighton. They could also do with running something on the South Eastern Network, such as down to Canterbury, Margate or Ramsgate.

That's an idea I think should be considered. The south east has been out of XC services for a while, but I'm not sure if there would be enough paths available for a regular service.

 

[Class455]

That's an idea I think should be considered. The south east has been out of XC services for a while, but I'm not sure if there would be enough paths available for a regular service.

There should be enough paths available on the north downs line for a regular service, the BML could be an issue though with the increase of Thameslink services but I'm sure a path would be found.
For me personally I could definitely do with a direct service between Redhill or even East Croydon and Leeds/Manchester!

 

[greatvoyager]

There should be enough paths available on the north downs line for a regular service, the BML could be an issue though with the increase of Thameslink services but I'm sure a path would be found.
For me personally I could definitely do with a direct service between Redhill or even East Croydon and Leeds/Manchester!

If XC do get the remaining 22x units, I hope that they look at a few services, maybe an express to Liverpool? Then again with Avanti looking to introduce a second hourly service, and Virgin's open access application, that's probably wishful thinking.

 

[Class455]

If XC do get the remaining 22x units, I hope that they look at a few services, maybe an express to Liverpool? Then again with Avanti looking to introduce a second hourly service, and Virgin's open access application, that's probably wishful thinking.

They could do. I'm hoping a CrossCountry service via Huddersfield is introduced sometime in the future when the Castlefield Corridor is finally sorted out!

Any idea what happened to the eVoyager project (not Project Thor) that the DfT were considering for CrossCountry back in 2011?

 

[greatvoyager]

They could do. I'm hoping a CrossCountry service via Huddersfield is introduced sometime in the future when the Castlefield Corridor is finally sorted out!

Any idea what happened to the eVoyager project (not Project Thor) that the DfT were considering for CrossCountry back in 2011?

The eVoyager, much like Project Thor, was deemed to be too expensive and difficult.
I wish that another project, called Project Omega, had been done though. Part of it would've included the 4-car 220 and 221 units to 5-cars, bringing them in line with the other 221s.

 

[greatvoyager]

Is there no viable re engine program for them?

 

[greatvoyager]

They could do. I'm hoping a CrossCountry service via Huddersfield is introduced sometime in the future when the Castlefield Corridor is finally sorted out!

Any idea what happened to the eVoyager project (not Project Thor) that the DfT were considering for CrossCountry back in 2011?

Huddersfield would have potential.

 

[class26]

I thought this would be down to a gauging issue not speed differentials. Surely this is something that can be sorted?

It may well be gauging but it is also due to the weight of the 221`s over the fens. The speed differential for them there is very low, something like 45 mph max, others may wish to correct me.
To counter this though they could of course run at the full 125 between Grantham and Peterborough.
Nottingham to Cardiff would be a better bet.

 

[greatvoyager]

It may well be gauging but it is also due to the weight of the 221`s over the fens. The speed differential for them there is very low, something like 45 mph max, others may wish to correct me.
To counter this though they could of course run at the full 125 between Grantham and Peterborough.
Nottingham to Cardiff would be a better bet.

Agreed.

 

[gingertom]

Is there no viable re engine program for them?

I'm sure Cummins has a suitable replacement, as would all the other engine manufacturers.
2 issues: 1 the replacement engine system s likely to have exhaust aftertreatment (adblue) which will need storage tanks on the train and at depots (if they're not there already) which will take up space under the body of the train where there is little. And 2 this represents a significant investment by the train owners / leasing companies,who will want to see the cost of the work recouped: They aren't going to do it if there is no guaranteed long term future use for them.

 

[greatvoyager]

I'm sure Cummins has a suitable replacement, as would all the other engine manufacturers.
2 issues: 1 the replacement engine system s likely to have exhaust aftertreatment (adblue) which will need storage tanks on the train and at depots (if they're not there already) which will take up space under the body of the train where there is little. And 2 this represents a significant investment by the train owners / leasing companies,who will want to see the cost of the work recouped: They aren't going to do it if there is no guaranteed long term future use for them.

Ah, okay.

 

[Mogz]

If XC do get the remaining 22x units, I hope that they look at a few services, maybe an express to Liverpool?

I hope so too!

Even if it’s just

Liverpool-Brum-Thames Valley-South Coast

and

Liverpool- Brum- Bristol- Devon

That were lost in 2003- it would be a start!

 

[greatvoyager]

I hope so too!

Even if it’s just

Liverpool-Brum-Thames Valley-South Coast

and

Liverpool- Brum- Bristol- Devon

That were lost in 2003- it would be a start!

Hopefully more capacity and more routes.

 

[TheBigD]

It may well be gauging but it is also due to the weight of the 221`s over the fens. The speed differential for them there is very low, something like 45 mph max, others may wish to correct me.
To counter this though they could of course run at the full 125 between Grantham and Peterborough.
Nottingham to Cardiff would be a better bet.

There's not a great deal of SP differentials on the Peterborough - Ely - Cambridge route. The big SP differential is on the long stretch (10+ miles?) from Ely North Junction to Lakenheath (on the line to Norwich) where it is 45 vs 75mph.

 

[greatvoyager]

There's not a great deal of SP differentials on the Peterborough - Ely - Cambridge route. The big SP differential is on the long stretch (10+ miles?) from Ely North Junction to Lakenheath (on the line to Norwich) where it is 45 vs 75mph.

Fair enough.

 

[greatvoyager]

I hope so too!

Even if it’s just

Liverpool-Brum-Thames Valley-South Coast

and

Liverpool- Brum- Bristol- Devon

That were lost in 2003- it would be a start!

It does seem odd that Liverpool was removed from the network, although I believe they didn't have a frequent service, and only a couple of trains each day.

 

[greatvoyager]

I wonder what will be decided and when an announcement will be made.

 

[quantinghome]

Lots of suggestions to expand the cross country network mentioned on this thread. While they may have their merits I think it's more important to get the existing service up to scratch, using the released 22Xs from other franchises to double up or otherwise lengthen services. This is the lesson from the Northern and Transpennine franchises where attempts to increase service frequency have foundered due to infrastructure constraints. Simple pictures are best; let's not overcomplicate the network.

 

[greatvoyager]

Lots of suggestions to expand the cross country network mentioned on this thread. While they may have their merits I think it's more important to get the existing service up to scratch, using the released 22Xs from other franchises to double up or otherwise lengthen services. This is the lesson from the Northern and Transpennine franchises where attempts to increase service frequency have foundered due to infrastructure constraints. Simple pictures are best; let's not overcomplicate the network.

The idea of doubling up is always good for XC.

 

[sprinterguy]

Lots of suggestions to expand the cross country network mentioned on this thread. While they may have their merits I think it's more important to get the existing service up to scratch, using the released 22Xs from other franchises to double up or otherwise lengthen services. This is the lesson from the Northern and Transpennine franchises where attempts to increase service frequency have foundered due to infrastructure constraints. Simple pictures are best; let's not overcomplicate the network.

Hear hear. As I've noted previously, the twenty ex-Avanti 221s would be sufficient to allow the majority of XCs' Scotland - South West services to be formed of 8-car pairs of 220s, and every other XC service that's currently 4 cars to be 5 instead. Get the day to day "bread and butter" of providing sufficient seats to suit demand right first and foremost. The LNR May 2019 timetable debacle has already demonstrated the shortcomings and performance issues of splitting more trains at New Street, and that there is no margin for error in times of disruption.

 

[greatvoyager]

Hear hear. As I've noted previously, the twenty ex-Avanti 221s would be sufficient to allow the majority of XCs' Scotland - South West services to be formed of 8-car pairs of 220s, and every other XC service that's currently 4 cars to be 5 instead. Get the day to day "bread and butter" of providing sufficient seats to suit demand right first and foremost. The LNR May 2019 timetable debacle has already demonstrated the shortcomings and performance issues of splitting more trains at New Street, and that there is no margin for error in times of disruption.

Could be even better with some, if not all 222s as well.

 

[ExRes]

I'm certainly not going to read 625 posts to see if someone has asked the question before, but if 222s were used then how do people expect XC to split the services up? it's extremely well known that 220s & 221s can't work with 222s so there would have to be quite clear areas of work so that the two groups don't come together

 

[43096]

I'm certainly not going to read 625 posts to see if someone has asked the question before, but if 222s were used then how do people expect XC to split the services up? it's extremely well known that 220s & 221s can't work with 222s so there would have to be quite clear areas of work so that the two groups don't come together

No different to having HSTs as a different type of stock, though, is it really?

 

[greatvoyager]

I'm certainly not going to read 625 posts to see if someone has asked the question before, but if 222s were used then how do people expect XC to split the services up? it's extremely well known that 220s & 221s can't work with 222s so there would have to be quite clear areas of work so that the two groups don't come together

That wouldn't necessarily be a problem, they could allocate them toba specific route or give them dedicated diagrams. I did suggest about it in the past, and if the need was there they probably could update the software to allow for it, but 222s interiors are different to 220/221 units which could make seat reservations difficult to allocate and stating plans more complex in a mix 220/221 + 222 formation.

 

[Nym]

They're also completely different traction systems. Kinda presents an issue...