Future of 22x Units

[greatvoyager]

There would be a good case for replacing all the engines with more modern ones.

Agreed, but I bet that would be seen as too expensive.

 

[The Ham]

the other thing to throw into the mix is, would the transformer car(s) be equipped with a diesel genset? If it isn't, the others will have the dead weight of another coach to haul, reducing the performance on diesel. If it is equipped with a diesel, would it have grandfather rights and be allowed to be a 750bhp Cummins 19QSK like the rest of the rake, or, if it is classed as a new build, would it have to be different conform to the latest emission regs? I can't see maintenance staff being happy with a mix of engine types in same rake.

It depends, there certainly could be a case to provide a feed which allowed the pantograph coach to power the other coaches, in which case do the other coaches have enough power generation to power more motors?

Even if the answer is that they aren't quite powerful enough there could be things done to give them a boost. For instance the new coaches could have batteries added which charge as the trains break, given the trains a boost to get them going again.

Of course as others have said, all this wouldn't be exactly cheap (not least needing new depots for the longer/extra units), and so you're probably best opting for a new build.

Especially given that any new coach would only see service for half their typical lifespan.

Having said that, if there was a need for more units (which is fairly unlikely) you could do something to overcome that problem.

In my previous post we'd for to 114 central coaches, therefore if we also built 29 new units with 5 coaches each we could then the new coaches put into the Voyagers could then be recycled at the end of the Voyagers life by being put into the 29 new units to make them 8 or 9 coaches long. (Other lengths could be possible, so it could be 23 units and 9/10 coaches long or 19 units and 11 coaches long).

However even then there's big costs and substantial risks.

Which could back to what I've said for sometime now, which is either:

- Scrap some end units, make the Voyagers longer and get extra units to be able to run the diagrams needed (either 80x or other 22x units).

- Get 80x and reallocate the 22x's elsewhere, probably on lower speed services where acceleration isn't so critical and so you can turn off some of the engines, maybe even take out one engine totally so as to reduce the weight of one coach so as to improve fuel efficiency further. Assuming that 2 engines in a 4 coach or 3 engines would still be able to get a 5 coach unit to broadly keep to 15x timings if an engine was out.

 

[greatvoyager]

Is first class ever packed on a 4/5-car 22x?

 

[squizzler]

There would be a good case for replacing all the engines with more modern ones.

Funny, as I have in the past suggested that the mechanicals of the voyagers were okay and a possibility might be to create body shells which would be lighter than the heavy steel voyager body and provide more roomy accommodation. My idea didn't fly (at least amongst forum users), but you effectively suggest the opposite.

 

[greatvoyager]

Funny, as I have in the past suggested that the mechanicals of the voyagers were okay and a possibility might be to create body shells which would be lighter than the heavy steel voyager body and provide more roomy accommodation. My idea didn't fly (at least amongst forum users), but you effectively suggest the opposite.

Would the ROSCO want to spend money modifying them though? Wouldn't modifying them to that extent mean a higher lease price to recoup the costs?

 

[Meerkat]

Even if it was theoretically economical to spend serious money on the 22x through to life end would any ROSCO be willing to risk it?
Political announcement of a whole new bimode XC fleet and they are left with a load of trains with very few other route options.

 

[greatvoyager]

Even if it was theoretically economical to spend serious money on the 22x through to life end would any ROSCO be willing to risk it?
Political announcement of a whole new bimode XC fleet and they are left with a load of trains with very few other route options.

That's the problem, once their replacement is announced, not that I expect that to be soon, there will be no real work for them.

 

[MarkyT]

There would be a good case for replacing all the engines with more modern ones.

Good suggestion. Could be cleaner and perhaps have slightly lower output, as the trains are somewhat overpowered today, especially the 220s. Could be combined with adding batteries in a hybrid configuration for cleaner and quieter urban running, and new bogies on the 221s to save weight. A 'plug in' feature (using short switchable sections of 3rd rail) could be optional at depots, stabling points and a handful of stations where long layovers are scheduled, so trains could always start the operating day on a full charge as well as a full tank. The shoes thus provided could also allow electric running on existing 3rd rail equipped lines in the south.

 

[greatvoyager]

Good suggestion. Could be cleaner and perhaps have slightly lower output, as the trains are somewhat overpowered today, especially the 220s. Could be combined with adding batteries in a hybrid configuration for cleaner and quieter urban running, and new bogies on the 221s to save weight. A 'plug in' feature (using short switchable sections of 3rd rail) could be optional at depots, stabling points and a handful of stations where long layovers are scheduled, so trains could always start the operating day on a full charge as well as a full tank. The shoes thus provided could also allow electric running on existing 3rd rail equipped lines in the south.

That sounds like a great idea and I'd like to see it, but it would probably be deemed too expensive.

 

[greatvoyager]

Whatever replaces them will probably be equipped with 3rd rail shoes and pantographs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whatever replaces them will probably be equipped with 3rd rail shoes and pantographs.

I would be surprised if it had shoes but it will pretty certainly have a pantograph and be made by Hitachi

 

[greatvoyager]

I would be surprised if it had shoes but it will pretty certainly have a pantograph and be made by Hitachi

Very true.

 

[Rich McLean]

Is first class ever packed on a 4/5-car 22x?

I have been on one with Standing passengers in 1st a while back, so it can happen. On Fridays when I used to travel Oxford to New Street in 1st, there was a healthy loading with nearlly all seats taken.

 

[greatvoyager]

I have been on one with Standing passengers in 1st a while back, so it can happen. On Fridays when I used to travel Oxford to New Street in 1st, there was a healthy loading with nearlly all seats taken.

So double formation would helpful for 1st class too.

 

[greatvoyager]

I have been on one with Standing passengers in 1st a while back, so it can happen. On Fridays when I used to travel Oxford to New Street in 1st, there was a healthy loading with nearlly all seats taken.

People suggest end cars could be scrapped, but that is where 1st class is located at one end, so that could cause problems.

 

[daveshah]

Whatever replaces them will probably be equipped with 3rd rail shoes and pantographs.

Whilst fitting shoes does seem sensible particularly as attitudes towards diesel trains in electrified areas change; I do wonder whether the power supply would actually cope with them in addition to the current service which seems to be about the limit.

 

[greatvoyager]

Whilst fitting shoes does seem sensible particularly as attitudes towards diesel trains in electrified areas change; I do wonder whether the power supply would actually cope with them in addition to the current service which seems to be about the limit.

Good point, didn't think of that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People suggest end cars could be scrapped, but that is where 1st class is located at one end, so that could cause problems.

Voyagers are modular (like near enough every modern train), you'd just fit the First Class seats into a former Standard coach and First Class is then there instead.

 

[greatvoyager]

Voyagers are modular (like near enough every modern train), you'd just fit the First Class seats into a former Standard coach and First Class is then there instead.

That would reduce standard class though. I thin it'd be easier to just run in pairs.

 

[MarkyT]

Whilst fitting shoes does seem sensible particularly as attitudes towards diesel trains in electrified areas change; I do wonder whether the power supply would actually cope with them in addition to the current service which seems to be about the limit.

With assistance from their engines and batteries the rebuilt Voyagers might regulate how much current they drew from the third rail, perhaps based on measured supply voltage. In particular, the surge on starting away from rest could be mitigated by the battery, just as it could in non-electrified territory where extreme cycling of the diesel engine could be avoided, with maintenance and longevity benefits that Prius and similar hybrid car owners would understand.

 

[The Ham]

That would reduce standard class though. I thin it'd be easier to just run in pairs.

It wouldn't need to reduce the overall number of seats, all that would happen is that part of a coach would be first class and the other part would be standard class (as one example of many, think the 444's as originally built).

The problem with (say) running all units as 5 coaches, is that to get the same capacity you need 10 coaches rather than 9.

Now whilst there's something too be said for running short units on the outer edges of the network, you can always fill empty trains with cheap tickets, especially if there's not too many services. For instance the effort to join/divide units at Reading for the sake of saving one or to units when you already need a lot of units to run those services isn't likely to make a big difference either way in terms of costs, but could make a big difference to the income available to you.

 

[greatvoyager]

It wouldn't need to reduce the overall number of seats, all that would happen is that part of a coach would be first class and the other part would be standard class (as one example of many, think the 444's as originally built).

The problem with (say) running all units as 5 coaches, is that to get the same capacity you need 10 coaches rather than 9.

Now whilst there's something too be said for running short units on the outer edges of the network, you can always fill empty trains with cheap tickets, especially if there's not too many services. For instance the effort to join/divide units at Reading for the sake of saving one or to units when you already need a lot of units to run those services isn't likely to make a big difference either way in terms of costs, but could make a big difference to the income available to you.

Either way, replacing some standard seats with first is a bit risky.

 

[greatvoyager]

With assistance from their engines and batteries the rebuilt Voyagers might regulate how much current they drew from the third rail, perhaps based on measured supply voltage. In particular, the surge on starting away from rest could be mitigated by the battery, just as it could in non-electrified territory where extreme cycling of the diesel engine could be avoided, with maintenance and longevity benefits that Prius and similar hybrid car owners would understand.

That could work.

 

[daveshah]

Although it further increases the cost and complexity of adding 3rd rail power whilst reducing the benefit (some diesel still used). Given that 3rd rail is a fairly small part of XC's mileage anyway I suspect they may not bother - unless perhaps they only fit a percentage of their fleet with it.

 

[greatvoyager]

Although it further increases the cost and complexity of adding 3rd rail power whilst reducing the benefit (some diesel still used). Given that 3rd rail is a fairly small part of XC's mileage anyway I suspect they may not bother - unless perhaps they only fit a percentage of their fleet with it.

Unless specified on whatever eventually replaces 22x units.

 

[option]

Good suggestion. Could be cleaner and perhaps have slightly lower output, as the trains are somewhat overpowered today, especially the 220s. Could be combined with adding batteries in a hybrid configuration for cleaner and quieter urban running, and new bogies on the 221s to save weight. A 'plug in' feature (using short switchable sections of 3rd rail) could be optional at depots, stabling points and a handful of stations where long layovers are scheduled, so trains could always start the operating day on a full charge as well as a full tank. The shoes thus provided could also allow electric running on existing 3rd rail equipped lines in the south.

Why wouldn't you just literally plug it in?
Ships are starting to use plug-in shore supplies whilst in port, so that they don't have to run engines in built-up areas.
Electric car charging is approaching 1000V DC at 125Amps & more.

 

[greatvoyager]

Why wouldn't you just literally plug it in?
Ships are starting to use plug-in shore supplies whilst in port, so that they don't have to run engines in built-up areas.
Electric car charging is approaching 1000V DC at 125Amps & more.

Anything to help reduce diesel usage.

 

[MarkyT]

Why wouldn't you just literally plug it in?

You could do this in stabling sidings, but with each vehicle a separate hybrid with its own battery that would be a lot of cables to connect manually, especially for a 2x4 coupled set. The 3rd/4th rail solution was something Vivarail proposed for fast charging of their battery trains and has the advantage of being instant and automatic. You just have to pull the train up in the correct position, and 'shazam' you're charging!

Although it further increases the cost and complexity of adding 3rd rail power whilst reducing the benefit (some diesel still used). Given that 3rd rail is a fairly small part of XC's mileage anyway I suspect they may not bother - unless perhaps they only fit a percentage of their fleet with it.

Adding shoes to the train is probably little different in cost to adding charging sockets and the train might have both to suit different locations. The extra charging rail in sidings would be a little more expensive than a flying lead arrangement, but only short sections are needed to align with the shoe positions on the vehicles. If shoes were fitted for static charging purposes primarily, then the the ability to use them on existing 3rd rail is a bonus feature for free.

 

[43096]

I can't believe we're even talking about third rail and Voyagers!

For a start, there is so little of their work over third rail (Basingstoke-Bournemouth, bits of Reading-Guildford if that still runs) that it just isn't worth it - if "Project Thor" wasn't viable 10 years ago, then it is going to be even less so now. And that's before you get on to what the HSE would make of installing more third rail in depots.

 

[MarkyT]

I can't believe we're even talking about third rail and Voyagers!

For a start, there is so little of their work over third rail (Basingstoke-Bournemouth, bits of Reading-Guildford if that still runs) that it just isn't worth it - if "Project Thor" wasn't viable 10 years ago, then it is going to be even less so now. And that's before you get on to what the HSE would make of installing more third rail in depots.

I repeat: If shoes were fitted for static charging purposes primarily, then the the ability to use them on existing conventional 3rd rail as well is a bonus feature 'for free'.

The new provision would be short sections of separately switchable 3rd rail only in sidings and possibly a small number of platforms where long layovers are scheduled. This is no different to what Vivarail are proposing for fast charging the battery version of their D-Train, although they promote a four rail system which keeps the return completely segregated electrically from the running rails introducing no compatibility issues with track circuits based train detection. As in the Vivarail proposal, each new rail section would only ever be energised when an appropriate train is standing over them.

This would be nothing like Thor or e-Voyager as an additional car with a 25kV stepdown transformer would not be required. Each car would remain as a self contained hybrid. There is no power bus along the train to share traction power between cars today, so the hybrid scheme would be broadly in line with the current system architecture.