Future of 22x Units

[greatvoyager]

Still an interesting idea.

 

[43096]

I repeat: If shoes were fitted for static charging purposes primarily, then the the ability to use them on existing conventional 3rd rail as well is a bonus feature 'for free'.

The new provision would be short sections of separately switchable 3rd rail only in sidings and possibly a small number of platforms where long layovers are scheduled. This is no different to what Vivarail are proposing for fast charging the battery version of their D-Train, although they promote a four rail system which keeps the return completely segregated electrically from the running rails introducing no compatibility issues with track circuits based train detection. As in the Vivarail proposal, each new rail section would only ever be energised when an appropriate train is standing over them.

This would be nothing like Thor or e-Voyager as an additional car with a 25kV stepdown transformer would not be required. Each car would remain as a self contained hybrid. There is no power bus along the train to share traction power between cars today, so the hybrid scheme would be broadly in line with the current system architecture.

It's still a vastly expensive project that is being proposed involving major engineering changes to the vehicles.

 

[greatvoyager]

Probably would've been better value if they had all these modifications from new.

 

[43096]

Still an interesting idea.

Interesting only in the sense of this being the "Speculative ideas" section. Overall it would probably be easier and better to replace the Voyager fleet with new build electro-diesels - it would make a much bigger contribution in terms of reducing diesel use and increase passenger capacity.

 

[greatvoyager]

Interesting only in the sense of this being the "Speculative ideas" section. Overall it would probably be easier and better to replace the Voyager fleet with new build electro-diesels - it would make a much bigger contribution in terms of reducing diesel use and increase passenger capacity.

Maybe so.

 

[greatvoyager]

I still hope they go to XC, even if short term. The capacity is a real issue.

 

[option]

Someone suggested replacing the bogies on the 221s, so they are the same type as those on the 220/222, which would reduce their weight.
At the same time, you would also be removing the tilt system.
If your doing that much work, then you could put in a power bus.

I suggested somewhere that they also be re-formed into 2+8 sets, so no doubling up.
The end cars could take pantographs & transformers, & batteries as suggested by someone else. Essentially they would become 'power cars'. If there's any space left in them, that would be used for non-passenger stuff, eg staff areas, maybe some more baggage/cycle space.
That would allow 'plug-in' charging at depots, stabling points etc.

It's also been repeatedly said that the existing sets are overpowered, & can easily run with an engine off. So a bigger 2+8 set could have 2 engines removed, reducing weight yet again. That would also give somewhere to shove some batteries. You might even be able to not have motors on those two cars.


Now I know that would be a lot of work, & money, & that it likely wouldn't be worth doing for a 20year life.
But what if the assumption that trains only last 40years is wrong?
That 40years figure comes from trains built mid 70s to early 80s, based on early 70s designs. (HST)
The 22x's are built 2000-, with 90s design (bogies etc)
What if they easily last 50 years?
Could a radical refurb then be financially worthwhile?

 

[krus_aragon]

Could a radical refurb then be financially worthwhile?

The killer point is that it would need to be more financially worthwhile than buying some new rolling stock instead.

 

[MarkyT]

Now I know that would be a lot of work, & money, & that it likely wouldn't be worth doing for a 20year life.
But what if the assumption that trains only last 40years is wrong?
That 40years figure comes from trains built mid 70s to early 80s, based on early 70s designs. (HST)
The 22x's are built 2000-, with 90s design (bogies etc)
What if they easily last 50 years?
Could a radical refurb then be financially worthwhile?

On the other hand, high speed Shinkansen vehicles in Japan are often scrapped after about 15-20 years in service, although some of the original series 0 lasted much longer, albeit relegated to secondary stopping services.
So Voyagers could go either way as they approach their third decade. Much will depend on how well their bodyshells have aged and whether any of the environmental mitigation measures suggested here for a mid life refurb actually stack up economically. I certainly can't see them continuing for another two decades totally unchanged.

 

[greatvoyager]

The future of XC will be the deciding factor.

 

[greatvoyager]

If XC are not permitted to take on any further 221s, and if the West Coast sets get scrapped, could they get some vehicles to make 221136/140/141/144 up to 5-car units?

 

[greatvoyager]

This has probably been asked before, but do 222s have the same problem with smells throughout the train that 220s and 221s have?

 

[greatvoyager]

On the other hand, high speed Shinkansen vehicles in Japan are often scrapped after about 15-20 years in service, although some of the original series 0 lasted much longer, albeit relegated to secondary stopping services.
So Voyagers could go either way as they approach their third decade. Much will depend on how well their bodyshells have aged and whether any of the environmental mitigation measures suggested here for a mid life refurb actually stack up economically. I certainly can't see them continuing for another two decades totally unchanged.

Over the next few years, we will hopefully find out.

 

[greatvoyager]

Could 22x units have a deep clean at some point? One I travelled on looked particularly bad.

 

[pro4600]

Could some of these units find work in Scotland once the 8xx come on stream for EMR and Avanti?

 

[JonathanH]

Could some of these units find work in Scotland once the 8xx come on stream for EMR and Avanti?

It seems unlikely given the amount spent on HSTs, the provision in the Scotrail franchising terms which ruled out 22x and the possible further extensions of electrification once the HSTs are finished with.

 

[greatvoyager]

It seems unlikely given the amount spent on HSTs, the provision in the Scotrail franchising terms which ruled out 22x and the possible further extensions of electrification once the HSTs are finished with.

I agree - ScotRail will probably end up with brand new trains.

 

[greatvoyager]

There must be a way to make them greener.

 

[43096]

There must be a way to make them greener.

Paint?

 

[greatvoyager]

Paint?

In a literal sense, absolutely lol.

 

[Class455]

If XC are not permitted to take on any further 221s, and if the West Coast sets get scrapped, could they get some vehicles to make 221136/140/141/144 up to 5-car units?

I highly doubt they will not take on the ex Avanti 221's. CrossCountry are suffering with overcrowding as it is so this is the perfect opportunity for them to receive more trains. The Voyagers are perfectly capable units to carry on so it would be a stupid decision to replace the entire XC fleet with Bi-Modes. I also think the Class 222's will end up at CrossCountry, they could either replace Class 170's on the Birmingham New Street to Stansted Airport route (certainly the 4 car 222's could be used on that) or be used on intercity services with four car Class 220's replacing the 170's. However since the 222's can't currently work in multiple with the XC Voyagers for electrical reasons, Bombardier could modify them appropriately so that they can do so.
What they could also do is make all Class 222's three or four car and make the Class 220 fleet five car using the spare 222 carriages. This will also give CrossCountry more options to replace Class 170's which in my opinion are inadequate for the franchise and would be better placed at somewhere like EMR or Northern who actually need the extra stock to replace Sprinters

On CrossCountry routes that use two car Class 170's (which my understanding is that they will be lengthened soon), is there any platform length restrictions or anything else that would prevent a four car Class 220 or 222 being used on them?

 

[D365]

I also think the Class 222's will end up at CrossCountry, they could either replace Class 170's on the Birmingham New Street to Stansted Airport route (certainly the 4 car 222's could be used on that) or be used on intercity services with four car Class 220's replacing the 170's.

Again... this would be difficult due to "Sprinter differentials" on the Peterborough-Ely section. Class 222s wouldn't be allowed to operate at the same top speed as the Class 170s.

 

[Class455]

Again... this would be difficult due to "Sprinter differentials" on the Peterborough-Ely section. Class 222s wouldn't be allowed to operate at the same top speed as the Class 170s.

I thought this would be down to a gauging issue not speed differentials. Surely this is something that can be sorted?

 

[greatvoyager]

I highly doubt they will not take on the ex Avanti 221's. CrossCountry are suffering with overcrowding as it is so this is the perfect opportunity for them to receive more trains. The Voyagers are perfectly capable units to carry on so it would be a stupid decision to replace the entire XC fleet with Bi-Modes. I also think the Class 222's will end up at CrossCountry, they could either replace Class 170's on the Birmingham New Street to Stansted Airport route (certainly the 4 car 222's could be used on that) or be used on intercity services with four car Class 220's replacing the 170's. However since the 222's can't currently work in multiple with the XC Voyagers for electrical reasons, Bombardier could modify them appropriately so that they can do so.
What they could also do is make all Class 222's three or four car and make the Class 220 fleet five car using the spare 222 carriages. This will also give CrossCountry more options to replace Class 170's which in my opinion are inadequate for the franchise and would be better placed at somewhere like EMR or Northern who actually need the extra stock to replace Sprinters

On CrossCountry routes that use two car Class 170's (which my understanding is that they will be lengthened soon), is there any platform length restrictions or anything else that would prevent a four car Class 220 or 222 being used on them?

To be honest, I think that 22x units will end up at XC, as it looks as if no one else wants them.
I believe that it would be nice to see more double formation running, as we know capacity is the biggest issue on XC.

 

[Aictos]

I highly doubt they will not take on the ex Avanti 221's. CrossCountry are suffering with overcrowding as it is so this is the perfect opportunity for them to receive more trains. The Voyagers are perfectly capable units to carry on so it would be a stupid decision to replace the entire XC fleet with Bi-Modes. I also think the Class 222's will end up at CrossCountry, they could either replace Class 170's on the Birmingham New Street to Stansted Airport route (certainly the 4 car 222's could be used on that) or be used on intercity services with four car Class 220's replacing the 170's. However since the 222's can't currently work in multiple with the XC Voyagers for electrical reasons, Bombardier could modify them appropriately so that they can do so.
What they could also do is make all Class 222's three or four car and make the Class 220 fleet five car using the spare 222 carriages. This will also give CrossCountry more options to replace Class 170's which in my opinion are inadequate for the franchise and would be better placed at somewhere like EMR or Northern who actually need the extra stock to replace Sprinters

On CrossCountry routes that use two car Class 170's (which my understanding is that they will be lengthened soon), is there any platform length restrictions or anything else that would prevent a four car Class 220 or 222 being used on them?

Well if the 222s do go to Cross Country then they should be used firstly to enable a internal cascade of 22Xs by doubling up services where possible and using 222s on specific diagrams both ex Voyager/HST workings and also some Class 170 workings between Cardiff and Nottingham which would free up some Class 170s to be used on the Birmingham to Leicester/Stansted Airport Route. Equally I believe should both the ex Avanti West Coast voyagers and the ex EMR medians should be cascaded to Cross Country which by jiggling around the diagrams should mean a lot more seats and the HSTs being retired to Scotland.

 

[greatvoyager]

Well if the 222s do go to Cross Country then they should be used firstly to enable a internal cascade of 22Xs by doubling up services where possible and using 222s on specific diagrams both ex Voyager/HST workings and also some Class 170 workings between Cardiff and Nottingham which would free up some Class 170s to be used on the Birmingham to Leicester/Stansted Airport Route. Equally I believe should both the ex Avanti West Coast voyagers and the ex EMR medians should be cascaded to Cross Country which by jiggling around the diagrams should mean a lot more seats and the HSTs being retired to Scotland.

That would be great for capacity.

 

[samuelmorris]

To be honest, I think that 22x units will end up at XC, as it looks as if no one else wants them.
I believe that it would be nice to see more double formation running, as we know capacity is the biggest issue on XC.

Is there room for that many extra units at XC? Will the formations of the longer units need adjusting down from 7 cars or can they operate the current XC routes as is?
Presumably the 20 221s will also be coming across from Avanti, which combined would represent almost a doubling in the fleet size.

 

[greatvoyager]

Is there room for that many extra units at XC? Will the formations of the longer units need adjusting down from 7 cars or can they operate the current XC routes as is?
Presumably the 20 221s will also be coming across from Avanti, which combined would represent almost a doubling in the fleet size.

It could account for the replacement of HSTs, maybe also a few Cardiff-Nottingham. The 7-car units wouldn't need to be changed (except for changing at least 1 first class carriage to standard class).
CrossCountry desperately needs more capacity, and this could mean most services can be doubled up if the 222s transfer across as well..

 

[samuelmorris]

It could account for the replacement of HSTs, maybe also a few Cardiff-Nottingham. The 7-car units wouldn't need to be changed (except for changing at least 1 first class carriage to standard class).
CrossCountry desperately needs more capacity, and this could mean most services can be doubled up if the 222s transfer across as well..

Of course, yes, that will reduce it a little, but even so there aren't many of those.
Were the 170s likely to be cascaded anywhere? I know use of longer trains was ruled out for the Stansted services but not sure about Cardiff.

 

[greatvoyager]

Of course, yes, that will reduce it a little, but even so there aren't many of those.
Were the 170s likely to be cascaded anywhere? I know use of longer trains was ruled out for the Stansted services but not sure about Cardiff.

Maybe the 170s could move to EMR? I think doubling the formation of at least 75% of the main line services could mean only a few 22x units being spare each day.