Future London Underground extensions and enhancements

[ShadowKnight]

I feel one interpretation of OP's question is where should there be a new tube/tfl extension. Perhaps a bit detached from some of the political/economic situation that often stops things from happening

 

[BrianW]

Love to see Pic extended to Windsor. It's about 4 miles from T5

I can see the Met extension to Watford Junction potentially happening in future if the funding issues were sorted out. Even if the new line would not be in London, it would still be beneficial to a lot of londoners along the route having easier access to the west coast main line.

Hillingdon Council about 12 years ago tried to get funding to extend the Central line to Uxbridge.

Why, why, why? The first two are outside the GLA area. The Piccadilly to Windsor- how many stops to Piccadilly Circus, let alone KX? Change at Slough to Lizzie Line. Maybe replace the train with tram shuttle Windsor- Slough,?
Folk can take the very frequent 207 Uxbridge- Shepherds Bush for the Central Line if its that important? Giving thanks I don't pay Hillingdon Council Tax.

Regarding Bakerloo extension southwards- I appreciate many 'good cause' targets- Lewisham, Peckham, Thamesmead ... maybe back under the river to Rainham-ish. What it needs is a big housing developer or consortium to 'stump up' serious Section 106 of Community Infrastructure monies

 

[telstarbox]

Reducing car use isn't an issue for the people who would potentially use any Bakerloo Line extension along the Old Kent Road, as few people have cars in that part of London anyway

Although I would expect that people who do have cars on the OKR probably use them more than people in central Lewisham or Greenwich where there is better public transport. It's outside the congestion charge and there are some quite low density estates with driveway parking like Rolls Close.

 

[Dstock7080]

Folk can take the very frequent 207 Uxbridge- Shepherds Bush for the Central Line if it’s that important? Giving thanks I don't pay Hillingdon Council Tax.

607 runs the whole distance

 

[Mojo]

Folk can take the very frequent 207 Uxbridge- Shepherds Bush for the Central Line if its that important? Giving thanks I don't pay Hillingdon Council Tax.

Presumably you mean the 607 as the 207 terminates just past Southall except at night when it’s the N207?

In any case; whilst that would possibly be of help to someone going from Shepherds Bush or White City, London Buses are painfully slow. The 607, despite being “express” and forming the centrepiece of Mayor Khan’s new showcase Hyperloop bus network, at peak times takes one minute shy of a whopping 1 hour 20 to go from White City to Uxbridge, meaning it would be quicker to go up to Baker Street and get the Met.

This doesn’t take into account the many people at intermediate stations who also want to go to Uxbridge - I was very surprised to see that most customers alighting in the morning gravitate toward the bus stop for connections to Uxbridge, this despite Ruislip to Uxbridge in morning peak being approx 25 minutes by bus!

Uxbridge is a very large location with a number of large organisations with offices or headquarters located there.

 

[NorthKent1989]

My fear with the Bakerloo extension is that it’ll continue being the can that will be kicked down the road for another few decades before anything is done about it.

Jago Hazzard did a very good video recently regarding the various Bakerloo extension proposals over the years, beginning of course with the proposed Camberwell extension in the 1940s, who knows where that would have ended up eventually.

Then he refers to a planned extension which would have diverted away from E&C after Waterloo to take the exact same route as the Jubilee line extension does now, only instead of ending up in Stratford it would have continued after North Greenwich toward Beckton along the same alignment the DLR Beckton branch does now.

Another option that I once read years ago was an extension over the Greenwich line as far as Charlton and second branch via the Bexleyheath line to Barnhurst.

And now we’re at the point of the line being possibly extended to Lewisham via OKR and New X Gate, again it’s in limbo, hope to see it actually open in my lifetime

 

[J-2739]

It is a very different time now compared to the mid-1980s. The future is unknown but there just isn't an agenda for future investment.

Will that be forever though?

 

[JonathanH]

Will that be forever though?

Yes. I don't really see why not.

 

[Horizon22]

My fear with the Bakerloo extension is that it’ll continue being the can that will be kicked down the road for another few decades before anything is done about it.

Jago Hazzard did a very good video recently regarding the various Bakerloo extension proposals over the years, beginning of course with the proposed Camberwell extension in the 1940s, who knows where that would have ended up eventually.

Then he refers to a planned extension which would have diverted away from E&C after Waterloo to take the exact same route as the Jubilee line extension does now, only instead of ending up in Stratford it would have continued after North Greenwich toward Beckton along the same alignment the DLR Beckton branch does now.

Another option that I once read years ago was an extension over the Greenwich line as far as Charlton and second branch via the Bexleyheath line to Barnhurst.

And now we’re at the point of the line being possibly extended to Lewisham via OKR and New X Gate, again it’s in limbo, hope to see it actually open in my lifetime

Crossrail was originally envisaged probably 50-60 years ago and started getting serious maybe 25-30 years ago for context, so this is nothing new!

 

[cle]

Good to hear on NXG not being an intended turnback, getting to Lewisham would be worthy in itself.

As part of that, my hope would be that they rebuild NXG to enable more Overground frequency (add a bay potentially) - knowing more ELL service is wanted, and line/platform capacity for more or all Thameslink trains to call. It could be a pretty significant interchange, in the vein of Highbury & Islington.

Beyond, the Hayes route seems certain. Removes a line from NR, gives 4 hourly paths E/W back for Southeastern services out of LB, it’s all within London and can probably stand more frequency. Catford and others may see intensification. With nippy new trains and no waits, people will adapt. And Beckenham as a spur / frequency overspill is interesting for outer connectivity. Gets both Croydon and Bromley, and their environs pretty close to the tube and DLR. It’s a reasonably busy town centre too.

 

[Jammy Dodger]

These are all the proposals I could think of at the top of my head. Some had partial funding, some have routes safeguarded and some are just aspirations. I don't think the Northern line will ever be extended to Clapham, mainly because it could be crush loaded and that area does not really need a service into London.

- Croxley rail link
- Bakerloo line extension
- Crossrail 2
- Northern line to Clapham
- Heathrow western and southern rail access links
- DLR/ London Overground to Thamesmead
- Tramlink to Sutton
- Holborn station upgrade
- Camden station upgrade
- South Kensington station upgrade
- Piccadilly line new stock (already underway)
- Bakerloo, Central line new stock
- Jubilee and Northern line new stock
- Piccadilly line new signalling system
- Piccadilly line to Ealing Broadway/ Chiswick Park to Richmond branch
- Hanger Lane/ Park Royal link

There is also Crossrail 3/Thameslink 2 (XR3/TL2) that I've heard about - new 2-tunnel NR route linking Croydon, Lewisham, Canary Wharf and Stratford. No idea how developed any plans are, or if planning has even started. Regardless, sounds like a good idea on the surface.

A second western branch of XR up the WCML to Tring has been proposed, which was cut from the original design (over costs I believe). The XR core is already going to be at capacity soon anyway, so a better idea IMO would be a new Crossrail route (XR4???) from Milton Keynes/Tring, along WCML, through the city, onto the SEML to Orpington and beyond...

 

[SynthD]

There is also Crossrail 3/Thameslink 2 (XR3/TL2) that I've heard about - new 2-tunnel NR route linking Croydon, Lewisham, Canary Wharf and Stratford. No idea how developed any plans are, or if planning has even started. Regardless, sounds like a good idea on the surface.

If you look up the name BML2 (Brighton mainline) you’ll find some non-industry plans for that route.

 

[PGAT]

There is also Crossrail 3/Thameslink 2 (XR3/TL2) that I've heard about - new 2-tunnel NR route linking Croydon, Lewisham, Canary Wharf and Stratford. No idea how developed any plans are, or if planning has even started. Regardless, sounds like a good idea on the surface.

No idea how the route could possibly exist. The only way to Lewisham would look to be the Mid-Kent Line which couldn’t fit TL2 if the Bakerloo line would be extended to Hayes. It’s also unclear where the line would go from Elmers End, as Tramlink is now occupying the former line to Addisckmbe

 

[telstarbox]

I feel one interpretation of OP's question is where should there be a new tube/tfl extension. Perhaps a bit detached from some of the political/economic situation that often stops things from happening

No, I was asking about realistic ones not BML2 or other such nonsense!

 

[HSTEd]

At some point in the future, maybe after CR2, it's possible that the Battersea branch of the Northern Line will be extended to Clapham Junction. I can't see the Morden line being extended, as that line is overcrowded enough without adding more passengers to it!

Indeed that's one of the reasons preventing existing lines being extended, that the inner London core couldn't cope with more passengers (e.g. The Victoria Line not going past Brixton). The Bakerloo is just about the only one with any spare capacity.

Is the situation so serious post coronavirus?
Hasn't that significantly cut peak travel on the underground or is that largely back to where it was? If its still down that provides opportunities for extensions that did not exist in 2019.

If the Northern Line is split (post Camden Town rebuild) it would also potentially provide additional capacity to extend the Morden branch.

I have crayoned various options, none absolutely stand out though. Could try to reach the Chessington Branch and use the theme park as a reverse-direction load generator.

 

[SynthD]

If the Northern Line is split (post Camden Town rebuild) it would also potentially provide additional capacity to extend the Morden branch.

It won’t have much uplift from where it is now, which is that people can’t board in Clapham iirc.

Covid caused a delay on predictions of 2-3 years, and a funding/decision delay of 5+ years. A net negative.

 

[HSTEd]

It won’t have much uplift from where it is now, which is that people can’t board in Clapham iirc.

My understanding is peak frequency would go from 24 trains per hour to 34?

 

[urbophile]

These are all the proposals I could think of at the top of my head. Some had partial funding, some have routes safeguarded and some are just aspirations. I don't think the Northern line will ever be extended to Clapham, mainly because it could be crush loaded and that area does not really need a service into London.

- Croxley rail link
- Bakerloo line extension
- Crossrail 2
- Northern line to Clapham
- Heathrow western and southern rail access links
- DLR/ London Overground to Thamesmead
- Tramlink to Sutton
- Holborn station upgrade
- Camden station upgrade
- South Kensington station upgrade
- Piccadilly line new stock (already underway)
- Bakerloo, Central line new stock
- Jubilee and Northern line new stock
- Piccadilly line new signalling system
- Piccadilly line to Ealing Broadway/ Chiswick Park to Richmond branch
- Hanger Lane/ Park Royal link

Pedant alert: the Northern Line already serves three stations in Clapham. The hoped-for extension is to Clapham Junction, which isn't in Clapham!

 

[Recessio]

I have crayoned various options, none absolutely stand out though. Could try to reach the Chessington Branch and use the theme park as a reverse-direction load generator.

Chessington Branch is reserved to be exclusively used by Crossrail 2 (along with most of the existing SW Metro area - a few lines will remained shared with NR services, or whatever NR is called in the future.)

CR2 routing is safeguarded so not sure how happy they'd be adjusting it to add any Northern line stuff.

 

[whoosh]

The Northern line extension to Sutton is dead and buried. They wouldn't even extend it just past the existing depot to connect to Morden South. Instead, it looks like an extension to/an additional tram line to Sutton and St Helier is TfL's preferred option.

My understanding is that the Southern Railway deliberately built the line incorporating Morden South to block the UndergrounD from a further extension onto it's turf!

 

[HSTEd]

Chessington Branch is reserved to be exclusively used by Crossrail 2 (along with most of the existing SW Metro area - a few lines will remained shared with NR services, or whatever NR is called in the future.

CR2 routing is safeguarded so not sure how happy they'd be adjusting it to add any Northern line stuff.

The proposed CR2 infrastructure ends just south of Wimbledon station. It is true that they had an idea where to send the trains in the consultation. However, there is no real infrastructure proposed to be built as part of the safeguarded programme that forces it to be actually operated like that.

Whilst CR2 is currently planned to take over the Chesington Branch, that does not mean that it has to do that.

The trains CR2 has chalked for Chessington can just go somewhere else in the SWML area, given that CR2 is nowhere near close to using up all the possible destinations. There are a lot more than 30 trains per hour on the SWML and the lines through Epsom after all.

 

[zwk500]

Good to hear on NXG not being an intended turnback, getting to Lewisham would be worthy in itself.

Fairly sure Lewisham is necessary for the construction plan, there's very limited space to sink shafts or launch TBMs in London.

As part of that, my hope would be that they rebuild NXG to enable more Overground frequency (add a bay potentially) - knowing more ELL service is wanted, and line/platform capacity for more or all Thameslink trains to call. It could be a pretty significant interchange, in the vein of Highbury & Islington.

Not going to happen, the tube extension would be underground anyway, and NXG is a National rail station with next to no space for expansion. The limiting factor on Overground capacity is the East London Line 'Core' section, with the remaining capacity earmarked for Clapham Junction services AIUI. A bay platform would be rarely used, bad value for money. Thameslink already stops every 2 minutes in the core, if you stop more at NXG you'll be extending journey times and blocking out badly needed Fast Line capacity.

Beyond, the Hayes route seems certain. Removes a line from NR, gives 4 hourly paths E/W back for Southeastern services out of LB, it’s all within London and can probably stand more frequency. Catford and others may see intensification. With nippy new trains and no waits, people will adapt. And Beckenham as a spur / frequency overspill is interesting for outer connectivity. Gets both Croydon and Bromley, and their environs pretty close to the tube and DLR. It’s a reasonably busy town centre too.

Hayes route would definitely benefit from tube frequencies. Beckenham junction would make sense although I could see it being a later enhancement due to budget problems. Conversion of the Hayes Line also allows NR to massively remodel the whole Parks Bridge/Courthill Loop area, smoothing out the gradient and massively simplifying the pointwork at the junctions to produce a serious maintenance saving.

 

[swt_passenger]

I think it is just a switching of the western Piccadilly and District line destinations that is discussed from time to time, usually in connection with signalling, automation, platform heights, or other rationalisation in mind.

The main reason is to provide additional terminating capacity for a Piccadilly significant increase in frequency through the central area. The displaced District line trains would then increase the frequencies to Wimbledon and Richmond.

 

[cle]

Not going to happen, the tube extension would be underground anyway, and NXG is a National rail station with next to no space for expansion. The limiting factor on Overground capacity is the East London Line 'Core' section, with the remaining capacity earmarked for Clapham Junction services AIUI. A bay platform would be rarely used, bad value for money. Thameslink already stops every 2 minutes in the core, if you stop more at NXG you'll be extending journey times and blocking out badly needed Fast Line capacity.

I think the first two were meant for Crystal Palace. The core has capacity for 24tph, currently 16. I would see a bay at NXG being equally useful to the one at New Cross - especially if Thameslink users were joining. Arguably with the Bakerloo at Lewisham, New Cross could be revised to NXG.

Extending journey times wouldn’t be that bad. It’s worth it for connectivity and tube/LB relief. It’s already happened on the BML (everything calls Burgess Hill etc) - our future is frequent and more semi fast. Direct comparison to NXG (in a post-BLE capacity) is Finsbury Park, where all TL trains rightly call.

Consider how many people FP keeps from the tube change at King's Cross - both NXG and Lewisham will do the same for LB, Waterloo and Charing Cross.

 

[zwk500]

I think the first two were meant for Crystal Palace. The core has capacity for 24tph, currently 16. I would see a bay at NXG being equally useful to the one at New Cross - especially if Thameslink users were joining. Arguably with the Bakerloo at Lewisham, New Cross could be revised to NXG.

20tph is the operable limit for LO, I've been instructed in no uncertain terms. I can assure you that Overground's *very* strong intention was for all 4 extras to go to Clapham. A Bay platform is unnecessary as the ELL trains form the slow line service on that section of the BML to West Croydon, so you wouldn't terminate anything additional at NXG unless there was disruption. The existing Down Platform provides emergency scope to spin services if necessary.

Extending journey times wouldn’t be that bad. It’s worth it for connectivity and tube/LB relief. It’s already happened on the BML (everything calls Burgess Hill etc) - our future is frequent and more semi fast. Direct comparison to NXG (in a post-BLE capacity) is Finsbury Park, where all TL trains rightly call.

Stopping trains further out is necessary because of the need to distribute those calls around. Finsbury Park is a reasonable comparison but East Croydon performs half that job already. The reason Finsbury Park is so effective is it has the Moorgate and Thameslink services to divert passengers away from King's Cross by offering a better route to the City, where jobs are. New Cross Gate doesn't offer the same distribution as all people will be able to do is change at Whitechapel.

Consider how many people FP keeps from the tube change at King's Cross - both NXG and Lewisham will do the same for LB, Waterloo and Charing Cross.

The layout of the networks is just fundamentally different. I can see Southern London Bridge services stopping at NXG but Thameslink will want to keep going, unless some fettling at Windmill Bridge allows them to recover the time in the schedules.

 

[PGAT]

A stop at NXG would probably be better justified with the Southern Caterham/Tattenham Corner and Epsom services where the time loss isn't as detrimental

 

[Western Sunset]

If the extension goes ahead it makes no sense to stop short at New Cross Gate

When does "sense" ever matter? Cf incomplete GWR electrification, as an example...

 

[zwk500]

When does "sense" ever matter? Cf incomplete GWR electrification, as an example...

Cutting the GW Electrification made perfect sense from one viewpoint.

 

[cle]

20tph is the operable limit for LO, I've been instructed in no uncertain terms. I can assure you that Overground's *very* strong intention was for all 4 extras to go to Clapham. A Bay platform is unnecessary as the ELL trains form the slow line service on that section of the BML to West Croydon, so you wouldn't terminate anything additional at NXG unless there was disruption. The existing Down Platform provides emergency scope to spin services if necessary.

Stopping trains further out is necessary because of the need to distribute those calls around. Finsbury Park is a reasonable comparison but East Croydon performs half that job already. The reason Finsbury Park is so effective is it has the Moorgate and Thameslink services to divert passengers away from King's Cross by offering a better route to the City, where jobs are. New Cross Gate doesn't offer the same distribution as all people will be able to do is change at Whitechapel.

The layout of the networks is just fundamentally different. I can see Southern London Bridge services stopping at NXG but Thameslink will want to keep going, unless some fettling at Windmill Bridge allows them to recover the time in the schedules.

Southern and TL aren’t and shouldn’t be intrinsically different.

Finsbury Park is one example of many. London has grown hugely and these zone 2/3 hubs (East Croydon is another beast entirely) - are much more important than historically.

Stratford, Highbury & Islington, Lewisham, Clapham Junction - all are so much more strategic to the network due to Overground and DLR options giving new orbital and radial connections. Plus the spread and diversification of economic activity in London. It is healthy to enable these places.

NXG with both Bakerloo and Overground routes would surely qualify. And no it doesn’t offer the City, which isn’t everything by the way - but Shoreditch is ostensibly that now, and is its own destination. But it will offer faster West End links than today, at high frequency. I bet you will be able to fit on a train, Vs the Jubilee at LB (which has a westerly trajectory - Bakerloo gives the jewel of Oxford Circus).

I’m not saying it’s justified today. But if all these things happened (higher frequency ELL, Bakerloo, some semi fast/fast calls) - it would absolutely be a major interchange and justify the calls. Including Brightons.

 

[zwk500]

Southern and TL aren’t and shouldn’t be intrinsically different.

Yes they are - there's a reason they're still separately branded. One goes into the traditional Termini and the other goes all the way across London to the other side.

Finsbury Park is one example of many. London has grown hugely and these zone 2/3 hubs (East Croydon is another beast entirely) - are much more important than historically.

The transport networks (but particularly the rail networks) north and south of the river are quite different beasts.

Stratford, Highbury & Islington, Lewisham, Clapham Junction - all are so much more strategic to the network due to Overground and DLR options giving new orbital and radial connections. Plus the spread and diversification of economic activity in London. It is healthy to enable these places.

I'm not saying ignore NXG completely, just choosing the right services will need care. The Cat & Tats are the services you want to focus on NXG, maybe the Uckfields as well (but they're VERY sensitive journey times). Lewisham isn't a destination in itself - there's no need to stop Sussex trains at NXG to allow connections into Lewisham.

NXG with both Bakerloo and Overground routes would surely qualify. And no it doesn’t offer the City, which isn’t everything by the way - but Shoreditch is ostensibly that now, and is its own destination. But it will offer faster West End links than today, at high frequency. I bet you will be able to fit on a train, Vs the Jubilee at LB (which has a westerly trajectory - Bakerloo gives the jewel of Oxford Circus).

The City isn't everything but it's still very important - and the route to the Docklands isn't simple from NXG either. East London is growing but mainly with jobs pivoting to WFH as well, so we'll have to see how that shakes out.

I’m not saying it’s justified today. But if all these things happened (higher frequency ELL, Bakerloo, some semi fast/fast calls) - it would absolutely be a major interchange and justify the calls. Including Brightons.

I don't think the Brightons would. You want the outer London suburbans calling at NXG.

(For reference, my parents live on the BML and I have an Aunt & Uncle in Haggerston, I have changed often at NXG and Norwood Junction or West Croydon and personally stopping a Brighton Train at NXG would serve me very well, so I'm advocating against myself in my position).