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Franchise bidding for 2011

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MidnightFlyer

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Anyone know the overall cost of, with the new franchise:
Republishing timetables, leaflets and charters etc in the new styles;
Buying new uniform for all staff members;
Replacing all signs on stations (like nameboards);
Repainting train sets;
Removing all evidence of the previous TOC from trains (safety posters, those window design things, network maps?

Also, why have EC repainted their sets and put all signs, and reuniformed staff in new styles? The trains being repainted now will only bear that livery for about 10 months!
 
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The Planner

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Just the bids themselves run into several millions, never mind actually what is spent if you win it.
 

tbtc

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Faster running and signalling that would allow trains to run closer to each other would solve a lot of pathing issues -

Best way to sort out the pathing would be to eliminate the speed differences between trains.

London Underground can manage a train every couple of minutes, because they all run at the same speed.

Having the same line for freight and for "High Speed" trains is a waste of capacity. For example, running at 140mph is great for East Coast, but they'll catch up with the Hull/ Grand Central service in front pretty quickly...
 

jon0844

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Yes, you'd hope that by upgrading the line you would work to upgrading the fleet of trains and increasing speeds.

Still, you could do one before the other. That's no reason not to begin investment, even if you might only be able to go from 125 to 140mph (or higher) gradually.
 

At_traction

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The only real answer for Durham is to reopen the Leamside and go around it (not very likely owing to the costs involved). Many of the curves could probably be taken at 100 with EPS, but I find tilt accross Durham Viaduct a bit unlikely. Berwick presents the same problems with the Royal Border Bridge.

Not even going into the sheer and awe-inspiring majesticity of the present approach to Durham (because who'd want to look at an olde pile o' stones on a promontory anyway ;)) from the south, but rerouting towards Leamside? Isn't the line's routing quite far from the city centre anyway. Not that there aren't stations farther from the city centre elsewhere, but still...

As for the bridge tilts, isn't the (ferro-)viaduct at both nevertheless an area where the train is already slowing considerably for a stop at the station, especially at Berwick-upon-Tweed?
Edit:
Correcting myself: Just looked through my recent GPS data (yes, no life and so on) and that particular XC service did go past Berwick without stopping (as opposed to preceeding XC and EC connections), but managed 112 kph through the viaduct anyway.
 
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Donny Dave

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I would bet serious cash on the fact the franchises wont be like for like in the near future. Ive no proof, but I reckon the areas will become larger and you will have less companies with a finger in the pie. It wont be a return to the "Big 4", but I reckon we will lose 3 or 4 of the current ones.

About bloody time !

Anyone know the overall cost of, with the new franchise:
Republishing timetables, leaflets and charters etc in the new styles;
Buying new uniform for all staff members;
Replacing all signs on stations (like nameboards);
Repainting train sets;
Removing all evidence of the previous TOC from trains (safety posters, those window design things, network maps?

Also, why have EC repainted their sets and put all signs, and reuniformed staff in new styles? The trains being repainted now will only bear that livery for about 10 months!

The cost will run into several millions, depending on the size of the franchise.

Oh, the livery on the EC sets won't be around for just 10 months, as DOR and the DfT want that to be the base livery for all franchises eventually (so I understand, correct me if I'm wrong). The mark 4 sets are being painted now, as they are due a repaint. Vinals don't hold the paint on the side of trains forever you know ....

Correcting myself: Just looked through my recent GPS data (yes, no life and so on) and that particular XC service did go past Berwick without stopping (as opposed to preceeding XC and EC connections), but managed 112 kph through the viaduct anyway.

Bang on the line speed of of 70mph then .....
 

tbtc

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Anyone know the overall cost of, with the new franchise:
Republishing timetables, leaflets and charters etc in the new styles;
Buying new uniform for all staff members;
Replacing all signs on stations (like nameboards);
Repainting train sets;
Removing all evidence of the previous TOC from trains (safety posters, those window design things, network maps?

Also, why have EC repainted their sets and put all signs, and reuniformed staff in new styles? The trains being repainted now will only bear that livery for about 10 months!

It'll cost a few quid, but then again timetables get published every six months (e.g. even though Virgin have run the West Coast franchise for many years, they revamp the design of the timetables regularly), trains get repainted every few years, maps can go out of date (with new stations being opened etc), staff uniforms are only meant to last for a few years...

You could come up with some scary big figure, but a lot of the money would have to be spent regardless of who takes over
 

WatcherZero

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Extreme minimum East Coast is a good example, simply paint over the old company name rebranding cost £634k
(Livery, Uniform, Stationary, website) no outside design agency and where possible (National Express doesnt appear) no changes.
 

Skimble19

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Extreme minimum East Coast is a good example, simply paint over the old company name rebranding cost £634k
(Livery, Uniform, Stationary, website) no outside design agency and where possible (National Express doesnt appear) no changes.
Are you sure its that much.. could swear I saw an article complaining about it being more in the region of 350k.. could be wrong, but definitely don't remember it being that high..
 

A60K

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Also, why have EC repainted their sets and put all signs, and reuniformed staff in new styles? The trains being repainted now will only bear that livery for about 10 months!
Repainting now is needed because the origimal GNER paint job is over 10 years old and wearing badly - patchy and occasionally down to bare metal. Silver is being used as a neutral colour which a new operator could apply their own branding to quite easily - only the purple stripe and East Coast logos needing to be removed. It will be at least 18 months before a new operator takes over I suspect, by which time all of the electric sets should have been repainted.


 

Aictos

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Extreme minimum East Coast is a good example, simply paint over the old company name rebranding cost £634k
(Livery, Uniform, Stationary, website) no outside design agency and where possible (National Express doesnt appear) no changes.

When National Express took over the ECML, all they did at Peterborough was cover the GNER text on signs with dark blue tape until they introduced their own white signs.
 

WatcherZero

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Are you sure its that much.. could swear I saw an article complaining about it being more in the region of 350k.. could be wrong, but definitely don't remember it being that high..

Tax payers paid £339k, previous operator picked up the rest but the total figure was what was relevant to the question asked about rebranding cost.
 

swt_passenger

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I thought the anti comp clauses were insisted on by the DfT.

The rail regulator has stated that the West Coast Moderation of Competition clauses will not survive the franchise change.

DfT possibly won't like it, but AIUI the decision has been delegated by them to the ORR...
 

317 forever

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I think East Anglia and c2c could be merged into a combined East of England franchise. As both franchises have good local management, and National Express are under new management with Dean Finch as Chairman, they ought to be allowed to bid for these franchises and any others of interest.

When it was expected that National Express would be taken over by CVC/ Cosmen and UK local bus and rail franchises sold to Stagecoach, I saw a picture of a class 357 train in Stagecoach livery branded East Thames Trains!
 

Zoe

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I think East Anglia and c2c could be merged into a combined East of England franchise. As both franchises have good local management, and National Express are under new management with Dean Finch as Chairman, they ought to be allowed to bid for these franchises and any others of interest.
So it would be a great idea to remove one of the few routes where there is competition then?
 

LE Greys

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So it would be a great idea to remove one of the few routes where there is competition then?

Competition is probably the only thing that provided extra investment on that route. Remember how NSE used it as a dumping ground for 302s, 310s and 312s, all of which needed replacing straight off. If it merges with Anglia/Great Eastern, expect to see the 357s sent off to a more prestigious and lucrative route (West Anglia say) and a load of clapped out 317s replacing them.
 

317 forever

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Competition is probably the only thing that provided extra investment on that route. Remember how NSE used it as a dumping ground for 302s, 310s and 312s, all of which needed replacing straight off. If it merges with Anglia/Great Eastern, expect to see the 357s sent off to a more prestigious and lucrative route (West Anglia say) and a load of clapped out 317s replacing them.

That would be history repeating itself, also because a few class 317s operated on the route via Grays soon after privartisation. I was pleased to ride one in 1997.
 

jopsuk

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Even including the FCC fleet and the Stansted Express mini-fleet, there aren't enough 317s to do a straight swap with the 357s.
78 357s
72 317s (12 at FCC)

There's the 321s, of which NXEA have 86.

Anyway, if the DfT retains its tight grip on such matters, I doubt a combined franchise would be allowed to swap the fleets without some strong political work
 

LE Greys

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Even including the FCC fleet and the Stansted Express mini-fleet, there aren't enough 317s to do a straight swap with the 357s.
78 357s
72 317s (12 at FCC)

There's the 321s, of which NXEA have 86.

Anyway, if the DfT retains its tight grip on such matters, I doubt a combined franchise would be allowed to swap the fleets without some strong political work

We would still end up in the same situation in 20-30 years though. Stock replacement and infrastructure upgrades on the LTS routes would be 'low priority' and quietly forgotten about. When the LMS ran the route, they used it as a showpiece against the LNER routes in the area, running brand new Stanier 3-cylinder tank engines, and later the Fairburn 2-cylinder version, also brand new. They also used it as a testbed for Hudd AWS. Under BR, it got electrified, and then ignored for the next 30 years except when they needed to send some old stock somewhere.
 

Zoe

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Some of the 315s will need somewhere to go if and when crossrail is built.
 

W-on-Sea

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I would hardly call c2c to Southend Central and NXEA to Southend Vic competition with one another, even if they were not both run by National Express! Check the difference in fares, for one thing.

I can accept that people who commute to London who live in some places between the two lines (e.g. Thundersley, North Benfleet, Herongate, Dunton) may have a choice between using either line. But that is a relatively small number of people, in some rural areas, and in many cases in communities that are not principally based around people commuting to London. The bulk of the population who commute to London from South Essex generally live in places that are more closely connected to somewhere on one line or the other, but not really both.

Back in pre-c2c days (which illustrates how much things have changed), there was substantial competition with the LTS line (parts of both the main line and parts of the Tilbury loop) from express commuter coaches - above all Southend Transport's X1 and offshoots. I think at one point in the late 80s (when LTS could decidedly not be relied upon to get you anywhere on time) there was something like 16 coaches an hour in the peak leaving Aldgate for Southend! Now....there are none. (I think this historically explains the historically relatively low fares on the c2c route, from when it was decided to try to poach coach-travelling commuters)

As for taking the 357s off the line to replace them with some battered old stock (and how preferable 317s are to 321s, anyway)...well, when it had been announced (as part of a general cascade of EMUs), 10 321s were to be transferred to c2c, there was great pressure from the various line user groups to ensure that they would be refurbished "to the same standard as the 357s", and (at that early stage: of course the proposed transfer has since been suspended), NX gave some hint that they would agree to this.

But in any case I'm not sure they have any reason to remove the 357s. For all the bad reputation that some of the areas served by the line have (to both locals and outsiders) the trains are generally treated pretty well by the passengers. Vandalism is relatively minimal, certainly when compared with, say, Southeastern or the late and unlamented Silverlink. And, having got the stage of regularly winning awards and praise for punctuality, reliability, and the "golden spanner" award too, why would anyone seek to break up a combination of things that evidently work really well....

Although, yes, the point that the line was once a flagship, and testing ground for experiments (as a self-contained network), and then subsequently completely neglected for decades thereafter (oh those hideous 302s and even worse 308s), is a good one. But commercial pressures maybe dictate against this being repeated. As does the development of the Thames Gateway and the slow shift upmarket of Southend (now a university town, with a campus of a proper university, too), as well.

As for merging the franchises? It would certainly fit the general pattern of larger franchises of recent years. (Incorporating c2c into what is now NXEA would boost teh latter's punctuality and reliability statistics, too) Maybe it's about time to make tickets from Southend to London interavailable on both lines, too....
 

PR1Berske

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My commute to work has been shifted from this week, from a route only covered by Northern Rail and their shaky Colne cabooses, to a route on the WCML, so it's TransPennine from now on.

If the latter could buy-out/merge/be forced to merge with the former, I know hundreds if not thousands of commuters who would buy two overpriced coffees in celebration.

An as-united-as-Merseyrail-would-permit "All Northern" franchise would be great for more than just selfish reasons ;) but I think the much larger franchises in the north would be a smart business move too..
 

MCR247

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but I think the much larger franchises in the north would be a smart business move too..

I think bigger franchises everywhere would be better, like combining fTPE & Northern, LM, EM & parts of XC
 

MidnightFlyer

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Re: c2c - Their network is far too perfect to be mixed with the rest of East Anglia :D Remember the proposal to turn the WHOLE LTS network (jncluding the East London bit) into a guided busway... Southend Airport station opens Monday the Fifth in other Franchise news...... :D
 

MidnightFlyer

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Might want to take a look at the timetables for engineering work dates on the NXEA website and see if anything is stopping there on them...

There is a footnote in the May-Dec 10 timetable Southend/Southminster-Liv St saying Southend Airport may open during the period of this timetable :D
 
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