Franchise bidding for 2011

[imagination]

According to wikipedia, the following rail franchises end next year:

c2c
East Coast
National Express East Anglia
Stansted Express

The problem is, it's been almost 2 years since the last franchise that changed hands (excuding NXEC) and I can't remember how the bidding process works.

Has the bidding process started yet?

What things are actually included in the bids?

When does the deadline fall for bidding? (2 of the above end on the 31st March)

And finally does anyone have any predictions on who will bid for/take these franchises, or perhaps some preferences on who they would want to run them?

Sorry if there's already a thread on this topic but I couldn't see one.

 

[Fred26]

I thought the government suspended bidding on new franchises, allowing things to stay as they are for now.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

According to wikipedia, the following rail franchises end next year:

c2c
East Coast
National Express East Anglia
Stansted Express

The problem is, it's been almost 2 years since the last franchise that changed hands (excuding NXEC) and I can't remember how the bidding process works.

Has the bidding process started yet?

What things are actually included in the bids?

When does the deadline fall for bidding? (2 of the above end on the 31st March)

And finally does anyone have any predictions on who will bid for/take these franchises, or perhaps some preferences on who they would want to run them?

Sorry if there's already a thread on this topic but I couldn't see one.

Few things
1 - thought NXEA and c2c had been re-extended.
2 - NXEA and Stansted Express will probably go to the same TOC.
3 - EC: Virgin.
4 - EA/SX/c2c: First/Govia/Stagecoach.
5 - c2c will be renamed Essex Thameside, regardless of owner.
6 - Lots of new liveries designs, timetables and leaflets to look out for

 

[imagination]

Like I said, I got the list from Wikipedia which isnt exactly reliable. I can't find anything on c2c having bidding suspended and the only thing that I can find that might say NXEA has been won't load the page.

And do you think they would let Virgin run the ECML as well as the WCML?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Like I said, I got the list from Wikipedia which isnt exactly reliable. I can't find anything on c2c having bidding suspended and the only thing that I can find that might say NXEA has been won't load the page.

And do you think they would let Virgin run the ECML as well as the WCML?

re: Virgin - wouldnt suprise me. Now that TPE and XC work cross-border trains, they wont mind, like when VT got both XC and WC franchises. When do we find out who wins?

 

[ainsworth74]

And do you think they would let Virgin run the ECML as well as the WCML?

What makes you think Virgin are going to keep WCML?

As far as I am aware all franchise bidding has been suspended until at least the autumn whilst the government decides upon making changes to the current system (franchise lengths and so on).

 

[EWS 58038]

Sorry guys, but the termination of the former eastcoast franchise at 23:59 had a good strategic reason for DafT.

By doing so NX would breach their contract and this would reflect to all operations by this company, like the termination of the east anglia franchise at the specified date, and not granting the company a franchise extention of 3 more years. Same goes up for c2c.

I doubt Dft will grand NX any franchise within 7 years given the recent experiences with the company.

 

[rail-britain]

East Coast is likely to be awarded to Virgin Rail Group
However, the West Coast is NOT likely to be awarded (renewed) to Virgin Rail Group
The proposal to operate the Class 390 over the East Coast next year gives all parties feedback on how much improvement could be made on the ECML if this option is used for future rolling stock (ie a proven and available technology)

Although there is little benefit to be had adding tilt, it could be applied between York and Edinburgh, with 135mph applied between Kings Cross and York
This would be a relatively cheap investment for Network Rail, some OHLE upgrading would be required, but the majority of the signalling already allows (with equipment installed) 140mph and many sections could easily be upgraded for 135mph operation

 

[TDK]

East Coast is likely to be awarded to Virgin Rail Group
However, the West Coast is NOT likely to be awarded (renewed) to Virgin Rail Group
The proposal to operate the Class 390 over the East Coast next year gives all parties feedback on how much improvement could be made on the ECML if this option is used for future rolling stock (ie a proven and available technology)

Although there is little benefit to be had adding tilt, it could be applied between York and Edinburgh, with 135mph applied between Kings Cross and York
This would be a relatively cheap investment for Network Rail, some OHLE upgrading would be required, but the majority of the signalling already allows (with equipment installed) 140mph and many sections could easily be upgraded for 135mph operation

They would need to install TASS and that don't come cheap

 

[ainsworth74]

Could I ask what TASS is exactly?

 

[Old Timer]

......
This would be a relatively cheap investment for Network Rail, some OHLE upgrading would be required, ..........

Who on earth spun you THAT tale ?

The OHL can hardly support itself to stay in the air let alone allow anything above 125mph, which would require considerable modification work.

An indication of your source would be very much of interest.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

East Coast is likely to be awarded to Virgin Rail Group
However, the West Coast is NOT likely to be awarded (renewed) to Virgin Rail Group
The proposal to operate the Class 390 over the East Coast next year gives all parties feedback on how much improvement could be made on the ECML if this option is used for future rolling stock (ie a proven and available technology)

Although there is little benefit to be had adding tilt, it could be applied between York and Edinburgh, with 135mph applied between Kings Cross and York
This would be a relatively cheap investment for Network Rail, some OHLE upgrading would be required, but the majority of the signalling already allows (with equipment installed) 140mph and many sections could easily be upgraded for 135mph operation

I agree about Pendos on the ECML: south of Newc its as straight as an arrow compared to the WCML. Suppose the fact that Pendos can do up to 140mph make them favoourable - not sure how! What makes you think VT won't re-win the WCML franchise - not criticizing - just wondering

 

[swt_passenger]

This would be a relatively cheap investment for Network Rail, some OHLE upgrading would be required, but the majority of the signalling already allows (with equipment installed) 140mph and many sections could easily be upgraded for 135mph operation

BR did a trial of 140 mph running. The outcome of that trial was that without cab signalling, the limit would remain at 125 mph. So the idea of 140 mph, and 135 upgrades, is purely theoretical in the absence of an in cab signalling being fitted.

Similar claims are made by Virgin now and again about 135 mph running on parts of the WCML - because they think it's safe. Unless in cab signalling is fitted, I'm pretty sure that won't happen either...

Using Tilt on the ECML is a separate issue, but it has previously been ruled unnecessary as it gives very littel improvement to end to end times - which is why there's never been any moves towards retrospectively enabling tilt on the Mk4s.

 

[Donny Dave]

South of Newc its as straight as an arrow compared to the WCML.

hock: My rail atlas suggests otherwise, especially between Durham and Darlington. There is some pretty severe curves further South as well.

 

[rail-britain]

The OHL can hardly support itself to stay in the air let alone allow anything above 125mph, which would require considerable modification work

I agree the ECML OHLE is pretty naff, after all it was in effect done on the cheap pushing the edges of what was practical (hence why it keeps falling down so often)

However, I have been advised several times by Network Rail (and previous to that Railtrack) that upgrading on the ECML for 140mph and tilt, is much easier and less costly than it was for the WCML
Obviously it does cost several £100s of millions, but the consultations suggest only certain sections would need to be upgraded, as for some sections there would be little or no benefit

In effect "straight sections" currently 125mph would go straight to 135mph (OHLE upgrade only) between Kings Cross and York

TASS would be installed between York and Edinburgh, upgrade of OHLE for marginally increased line speeds (to 125mph, where they are currently less than this)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

hock: My rail atlas suggests otherwise, especially between Durham and Darlington. There is some pretty severe curves further South as well.

Compared to the WCML is it really neccessary to take off HSTs etc, and replace them with 390s, tilts unactive up the EC anyway hock:

 

[Old Timer]

It might be worth Network Rail talking to an OHL Engineer then, but knowing the route and knowing the individuals you wont find them there.

Firstly the OHL is Mk3 which was originally designed as a 75mph suburban system, it was then upgraded to 90 mph with the Midland Suburban Electrification scheme.

Following that it was upgraded on the GN to 100 mph, and after re-tensioning was raised to 125mph.

The system is NOT sustainable for continued high speed running, had it been then £ Millions would not have been spent developing the UK1 system which is the only purpose designed high speed OHL system in the UK.

South of Newcastle there is little that would be gained from tilting trains as the track is generally on an easier alignment than the WCML - hence why it was termed the "tea-time railway".

Higher speed running without TASS would require retensioning of the OHL. The Mk3 system would need to be completely designed to operate with a higher tension that it has now, and in addition, there would need to be a re-spacing of the OHL structures.

Anchor structures were not designed to take the additional loading and would need to be re-installed.

In multiple track areas the OHL MIR (Mechanically Independent Registration) system is now the standard preferred arrangement over the Mk3 headpsan system.

Add to all this the need to install additional/respaced OHL feeding and you have a much larger job than these Network Rail people you are speaking to realise.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

south of Newc its as straight as an arrow compared to the WCML.

hock: My rail atlas suggests otherwise, especially between Durham and Darlington. There is some pretty severe curves further South as well.

Its not just your rail atlas that says so!
It twists an turns like a snake between Darlington and Durham, with speeds down to 85 between Darlo and Ferryhill, and 75 between there and Durham.

South of there, and overlooking the very tight bends in York and Donny, there's still a few twists to worry about - the 3 consecutive right then left bends between Newark and Retford for example, or the Hitchin curve.

But these are nothing like the sharp bends north of Newcastle at Morpeth and Ayot. I doubt tilting trains are the answer to those two!

 

[Aictos]

Its not just your rail atlas that says so!
It twists an turns like a snake between Darlington and Durham, with speeds down to 85 between Darlo and Ferryhill, and 75 between there and Durham.

South of there, and overlooking the very tight bends in York and Donny, there's still a few twists to worry about - the 3 consecutive right then left bends between Newark and Retford for example, or the Hitchin curve.

But these are nothing like the sharp bends north of Newcastle at Morpeth and Ayot. I doubt tilting trains are the answer to those two!

Have you seen the curves at Offord or Fletton then?, the curves at Offord are like a S from the sky.

 

[Fincra5]

If Virgin don't wind the WCML franchise, i hope they do, then the following franchise owner will have to make quite a few changes I think the windows on the doors say "Virgin Trains"

 

[MidnightFlyer]

But still compare that to the WCML... OK Newc-Darl is a bit bendy, but ou would have to locate the places for tilt to be activated, sign them, put them in rule and road learning books, re-do times, build more 390s etc. There's no designated tilts already Donny-Edinburgh, thats why, back in virgin's XC days, 221s - which had tilt - did more Bhm-Pre-Sco work
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If Virgin don't wind the WCML franchise, i hope they do, then the following franchise owner will have to make quite a few changes I think the windows on the doors say "Virgin Trains"

Idiotic, isn't it. And scratch it out on First Class Lounge windows, reprint Safety Info posters. Luckily, they never did much on station signs. On the last day of Silverlink, I remember men going round the NLL with tape and black bags, and putting them over the bits that said 'Silverlink welcomes you to.....' signs on station enterances and platforms. Crazy. Note how all EMT stations still have old Midland mainline or BR reg Rlys signs. Good money saving stuff

 

[Donny Dave]

But still compare that to the WCML... OK Newc-Darl is a bit bendy, but ou would have to locate the places for tilt to be activated, sign them, put them in rule and road learning books, re-do times, build more 390s etc. There's no designated tilts already Donny-Edinburgh, thats why, back in virgin's XC days, 221s - which had tilt - did more Bhm-Pre-Sco work

You do come out with some good jokes !

The 221s were not specifically allocated to Scotland - Birmingham via the WCML when they were introduced, just like they were not specifically allocated to services between Birmingham - Reading either (another route with EPS differentials in places).

The reality was the 220s and 221s were part of a common fleet and could go anywhere on the XC network.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Have you seen the curves at Offord or Fletton then?, the curves at Offord are like a S from the sky.

Yeah, but you can't blame the railway for Offord, they should have got the river straight first! So close but not quite straight enough.

As for Fletton, I am surprised the linespeed isn't lower. P'bro stoppers can take it more gracefully.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

You do come out with some good jokes !

The 221s were not specifically allocated to Scotland - Birmingham via the WCML when they were introduced, just like they were not specifically allocated to services between Birmingham - Reading either (another route with EPS differentials in places).

The reality was the 220s and 221s were part of a common fleet and could go anywhere on the XC network.

Sorry, me typing too much got myself confused - honest! i meant VT would probs have preferred trains which had tilt to work services via Preston etc, obviously not wholly possible - what did you mean by That Good Joke comment ?

 

[ukrob]

rail-britain, you are loosing more and more credibility

You must learn to stop digging when you are wrong. I suspect you won't be back in this thread now you have been caught out - a recurring pattern.

It was not long ago that you told us that Pendolinos will have three pantographs when upgraded to eleven cars - and showed us your source which actually said otherwise.

It is just ludicrous to say that "straight sections" currently 125mph would go straight to 135mph (OHLE upgrade only) between Kings Cross and York" because you have no source whatsoever in addition to being wrong.

Old Timer has years of experience in this field and it really shows.

 

[jon0844]

BR did a trial of 140 mph running. The outcome of that trial was that without cab signalling, the limit would remain at 125 mph. So the idea of 140 mph, and 135 upgrades, is purely theoretical in the absence of an in cab signalling being fitted.

I can accept that, but knowing that late Mk4s have still got up to 140mph north of Peterborough, and the lines haven't fallen down, we might be able to assume that the overhead lines - cheap and nasty as they are - could be able to take regular use at that speed perhaps with minor modification. I'm not saying they wouldn't fall down - but they seem capable of doing that anyway. Some form of OHLE upgrade is going to be necessary one day anyway.

The signalling is a whole different issue, and one that can be fixed too. Indeed, you'd hope that it would be upgraded as part of ordinary maintenance over the coming years.

Faster running and signalling that would allow trains to run closer to each other would solve a lot of pathing issues - and if done right, might be reliable enough to keep things running properly for longer periods of time. Oh, and I'd want them to design it all so they can shut down half the lines for engineering and, except for exceptional circumstances, be able to run trains even during works.

Maybe I'm dreaming now!

 

[LE Greys]

Thinking of the worst curvature problems, they recommended putting in an avoiding line at Morpeth after the derailment in 1877. Still waiting. Offord was supposedly straightened out back in the 70s (demolishing the old station at Offord & Buckden) and seems to cope with current line speeds fairly well, but tilt might be useful provided the overhead wire problems are sorted out. However, the LNER system between Stratford and Shenfield would be a higher priority for replacement, so that's unlikely for now. The only real answer for Durham is to reopen the Leamside and go around it (not very likely owing to the costs involved). Many of the curves could probably be taken at 100 with EPS, but I find tilt accross Durham Viaduct a bit unlikely. Berwick presents the same problems with the Royal Border Bridge. Doncaster is enough of a capacity constraint because of the flat junctions without having to worry about curvature, and has practically no space for flyovers. The slow approaches to Newcastle and York must lose at least a minute at both, but the alignment seems unchangeable. York could do with direct access from the Down Leeds to the platforms, which would deal with any capacity problems at the south end. Darlington really needs a platform on the Up Loop (something like the Platform 4 at Swindon) so that up trains do not have to cross the Down Main twice. However, the Newark crossing, Cambridge Junction and Welwyn Viaduct are the biggest issues without having to worry about increasing speed.

So, no speed increase, tilt or increased capacity without proper planning and a lot of investment. A lot of the overhead wire was replaced in the last few years. Why did they not extend the work a bit more and begin to beef up the structures? How long would it actually take to remove all the headspans and replace them with gantries? Network Rail should have thought of these questions before putting up wire that may have to come down long before it becomes life-expired.

 

[merlodlliw]

If Virgin don't wind the WCML franchise, i hope they do, then the following franchise owner will have to make quite a few changes I think the windows on the doors say "Virgin Trains"

Perhaps you might give the reason why you hope they win.

Also whoever wins will just replace the windows along with getting rid of the anti comp clauses

 

[The Planner]

I would bet serious cash on the fact the franchises wont be like for like in the near future. Ive no proof, but I reckon the areas will become larger and you will have less companies with a finger in the pie. It wont be a return to the "Big 4", but I reckon we will lose 3 or 4 of the current ones.

 

[Dreadnought]

Also whoever wins will just replace the windows along with getting rid of the anti comp clauses

I thought the anti comp clauses were insisted on by the DfT. I'm sure I have seen reports elsewhere that Virgin where prepared to drop it but were told NO by the DfT and have even had to be reminded to actually use this clause when other train companies have applied for rights on the WCML else they would be in breach of their franchise!