Forth Bridge: how would you electrify it?

[corsaVXR]

A few options I think:

• put a third set of bi directional tracks in the middle of the current tracks - allows extra clearance to the diagonal braces, at the cost of capacity
• require the use of a trolley pole style collector over the bridge, and move the wires more inboard within the bridge.
• Low rigid insulator to push the pantograph down, and require self propulsion.

Coasting won't work - there's a signal halfway across the bridge.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The approach spans would though.

It would help if any metalwork was painted the same colour as the bridge imho

 

[najaB]

put a third set of bi directional tracks in the middle of the current tracks - allows extra clearance to the diagonal braces, at the cost of capacity

Do you know how many trains the bridge carries?

 

[InOban]

The current passenger schedule is seven trains each way, every hour.

 

[najaB]

The current passenger schedule is seven trains each way, every hour.

I know, but I don't think @corsaVXR does - bidirectional track Indeed!

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Do you know how many trains the bridge carries?

Sitting outside with a beer, a phone and an internet connection, it seemed reasonable to count them on realtimetrains for tomorrow. I made it 241 but I may have lost the place
Sounds about right.

 

[NotATrainspott]

If someone really wanted to they could do an FOI request for documents about it. At the very least they'll have documents showing the available loading gauge.

 

[D365]

Sitting outside with a beer, a phone and an internet connection, it seemed reasonable to count them on realtimetrains for tomorrow.

Whereabouts is that?

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Whereabouts is that?

I was sitting in my south patio, because it has a bit more shade.

More usefully I suspect, on RTT I started off with Dalmally Dalmeny , then changed to Inverkeithing in case Dalmally Dalmeny
and North Queensferry are not timing points. There's a some "runs as required" in the list but last week over half of these actually ran as far as I could tell. Anyway 230 - 240ish is about right.

 

[edwin_m]

I was sitting in my south patio, because it has a bit more shade.

More usefully I suspect, on RTT I started off with Dalmally, then changed to Inverkeithing in case Dalmally and North Queensferry are not timing points. There's a some "runs as required" in the list but last week over half of these actually ran as far as I could tell. Anyway 230 - 240ish is about right.

If you're looking at Dalmally you'll get a seriously wrong answer. I think you mean Dalmeny.

 

[najaB]

If you're looking at Dalmally you'll get a seriously wrong answer. I think you mean Dalmeny.

Leave the manny alone with his beer!

 

[PaxVobiscum]

If you're looking at Dalmally you'll get a seriously wrong answer. I think you mean Dalmeny.

Leave the manny alone with his beer!

I did indeed!

 

[Indigo Soup]

Personal preference? Design the most cost-effective engineering solution for the job, I don't know what that is. Present it to the bodies that decided that an operational piece of transport infrastructure should be treated like a museum, and tell them that if they want something different done, they can find the money for it. Or maybe we can get the runways at Heathrow made listed buildings too.

Meanwhile, back in reality.... if it's a matter of the kinematic envelope on the pantograph heads, is there some way that the dynamic characteristics can be altered to reduce that envelope? That in turn would probably force you down the conductor rail route, of course, but I think that's pretty likely no matter what is done.

 

[najaB]

That in turn would probably force you down the conductor rail route, of course, but I think that's pretty likely no matter what is done.

We're quite a ways away from conductor rail. Battery packs or gensets are far more likely.

 

[DarloRich]

We're quite a ways away from conductor rail. Battery packs or gensets are far more likely.

i suggest the rigid overhead conductor rail is more likely than generators or battery packs at this stage.

 

[najaB]

i suggest the rigid overhead conductor rail is more likely than generators or battery packs at this stage.

Ah, sorry. Misunderstood - thought @RLBH was talking about third-rail!

 

[DarloRich]

Ah, sorry. Misunderstood - thought @RLBH was talking about third-rail!

if he is you are right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Indigo Soup]

Nope, definitely overhead conductor rail. Southern Region-type conductor rail I think is possibly less likely than asking the passengers to get out and push!

 

[najaB]

Nope, definitely overhead conductor rail. Southern Region-type conductor rail I think is possibly less likely than asking the passengers to get out and push!

Apologies for the confusion - I'm more used to calling it conductor bar rather than rail (to distinguish it from third-rail. )

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Apologies for the confusion - I'm more used to calling it conductor bar rather than rail (to distinguish it from third-rail. )

Did shomeone shay “bar”?
Ashk the conductor where it ish?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

i suggest the rigid overhead conductor rail is more likely than generators or battery packs at this stage.

As per Crossrail tunnels

 

[Aictos]

With the Forth Bridge

As per Crossrail tunnels

And between St Pancras Int to Farringdon If I'm right? Also didn't Network Rail use it when electrifying one of the tunnels between Edinburgh and Haymarket a few years ago as well?

 

[OmniCity999]

With the Forth Bridge


And between St Pancras Int to Farringdon If I'm right? Also didn't Network Rail use it when electrifying one of the tunnels between Edinburgh and Haymarket a few years ago as well?

Sure the Queen Street tunnel uses overhead conductor rail?

 

[InOban]

And Winchburgh tunnel.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Yes - conductor “bar” at about 2’30”
https://www.railengineer.uk/2016/08/01/video-glasgow-queen-street/

The whole video is worth a watch.

 

[HSTEd]

The most likely result is not a 25kV conductor bar, its that no electrification will occur.

Ofcourse eventually we might get a HS-Far North at which point we would get a new crossing that is fit for purpose.....

 

[najaB]

The most likely result is not a 25kV conductor bar, its that no electrification will occur.

Given the number of services that cross the bridge and the Scottish Government's attitude to electrification, that is the least likely outcome.

 

[HSTEd]

Given the number of services that cross the bridge and the Scottish Government's attitude to electrification, that is the least likely outcome.

When was the last time the scottish government announced a new electrification project?
The last scheme on the Scottish Government website appears to be complete in March 2019.

 

[najaB]

When was the last time the scottish government announced a new electrification project?
The last scheme on the Scottish Government website appears to be complete in March 2019.

They haven't announced project specifics, however they have made it clear that their intention is to extend wires from Dunblane to Perth and onwards to Dundee/Carnoustie with the Fife Circle following on/running parallel.

 

[Aictos]

Given the number of services that cross the bridge and the Scottish Government's attitude to electrification, that is the least likely outcome.

Indeed, if and when Stirling to Dundee via Perth ever gets electrified then it makes sense as a addon to include Haymarket to Dundee via Ladybank (both Newburgh and Fife lines) as you have a alternative electrified route in times of disruption as well in normal service but you also have the benefit of reducing DMU usage even more in the Central Belt as well as extending the North Berwicks via the Fife Circle which ought to free up a platform at Edinburgh due to not having to turnround the service there.

I believe we WILL see the Forth Bridge wired up in my lifetime using the conductor bar system which is a proven method that works, we just need to ensure that once the existing projects are complete in Scotland that the teams concerned are given more work and not have their skills dry up as would be the case in England.