That's a very good point. Lots of metal was cut out of the Eiffel tower not long ago and sold off in small pieces as souvenirs... another income stream for NR, especially with the planned new visitor centre/go up the bridge "experience!"
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Forth Bridge: how would you electrify it?
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post 33 says electrification was specifically allowed for in the designation...
Electrification, yes. Wholesale removal of massive chunks of the structure, not so much.
adrock1976
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I believe (for heavy rail systems) the nearest section of conductor rail to the Forth Bridge would be Ormskirk on the Merseyrail network. Obviously, the furthest would be somewhere south of the mighty Thames.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Maybe they could just detach the diagonals and re-attach them a foot or so higher up?
Southport is both further north and further west than Ormskirk, and therefore nearer to the Forth bridge on both counts (assuming you're measuring as the crow flies and not by current (sic) rail routes).
or the Guangzhou metro? I can't find any reference to conductor rail in Australia or New Zealand...
adrock1976
Established Member
I was visualising it by the shortest route by rail i.e. Dalmeny - Linlithgow - Falkirk Grahamston - Coatbridge Central - Carlisle - Penrith - Preston - Ormskirk.
adrock1976
Established Member
Although I did not make it clear in the earlier post, I meant within the mainland of Great Britain.
OK, its just that (not living in London or the Southeast) I tend to look for a UK perspective to balance London-centric posts, and by extension I think about Europe and the rest of the world when a general question is posed too.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Guangzhou is south of the Thames though...
adrock1976
Established Member
Getting back on topic, I am not sure how possible or feasible it would be to use tramwire (similar to Wolverhampton - Oxley Depot) for the bridge.
For the problematic sections with the diagonal girders above the tracks, I don't know if these could be neutral sections with the other bits being live, so as to keep the train in motion when crossing over the bridge.
For the problematic sections with the diagonal girders above the tracks, I don't know if these could be neutral sections with the other bits being live, so as to keep the train in motion when crossing over the bridge.
As the videos in post #16 show, the diagonal girders are at frequent intervals throughout the length of the bridge proper (excluding the approach viaducts). The whole bridge would probably have to be a neutral section (as indeed some previous posters have suggested).
Scotrail84
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Coasting wouldn't work, theres at least 2 stop signals on the bridge (maybe 3) how would you get going again if a train had to be stopped, this was resignalled to increase capacity, holding a train at either NQU or DAM so they could coast across the bridge would just cause delays. Anyway I don't see why electrification is such a bit deal.
North Queensferry, Inverkeithing and Kinghorn tunnels would need major clearance work done several footbridges would need replaced, level crossings made safe as well as many other road bridges. Lets not even start talking about the tay bridge which already has a weight restriction so adding heavy steel masts must be a great idea, then theres dock street tunnel which would more than likely need closed and rebuilt before any wires reached there.
North Queensferry, Inverkeithing and Kinghorn tunnels would need major clearance work done several footbridges would need replaced, level crossings made safe as well as many other road bridges. Lets not even start talking about the tay bridge which already has a weight restriction so adding heavy steel masts must be a great idea, then theres dock street tunnel which would more than likely need closed and rebuilt before any wires reached there.
I believe the problem is dynamic rather than static loads - witness trains being held on the bridge to avoid two 'heavy' trains crossing on the high girders section.
It was rebuilt ten years or so ago, so one would hope it was done with future electrification in mind.
Scotrail84
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The high girders section is one train working only and I'm certain there used to be a ban on double heading as well as a freight limit too.
I think dock street tunnel will still have clearance issues despite the remedial works.
Why not? Both stretches are limited to 40mph.
It seems that the pantograph horn clearances are likely to be the problem, hence my suggestion of a narrow/low version. Low speed, a straight railway line (and no junctions) will mean less lateral displacement so the actual carbons will only need to be the width of the zig-zag plus a minimal allowance for dynamic displacement (or whatever the proper word is.) This plus the smaller horns might give us a system that can be shoe-horned in in the circumstances.
markindurham
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That's a fair point - however, the national rail network is there to transport people and goods, and to do so in an environmentally responsible way when possible, not to be simply 'preserved in aspic', as it were. At least these days electrification schemes do tend to be done in a sympathetic manner whenever possible, to minimise the effect of putting the wires up. A good recent example of this is, of course, the Chorley 'flying buttresses'.
"the Forth Estuary is a beautiful and wild place, and should not be spoiled by building a massive bridge across it" - the likes of you, in the 1870s
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
10/10 for that reply. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Progress and history can stand side by side with some thought.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
With apologies to John Ruskin: Every fool in Dalmeny can be at North Queensferry, and every fool in North Queensferry at Dalmeny.
route:oxford
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Corrected for you.
Aictos
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York, Newcastle, Kings Cross to name just three which have OHL which isn't that noticeable so it can be done.
GRALISTAIR
Established Member
Agreed Lime Street and Paddington too. The Forth and Tay bridges can be done and done well.
I'd add the Royal Border Bridge to the list.
The approach spans would though.
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