Or keep the schedule as it is and accept the fact that once in every few years they'll lose a race. Wasn't the last half-points race back in Malaysia in 2009?
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Formula 1
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alex17595
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They might as well just award points for qualifying if the race gets cancelled due to weather.
D365
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Which is, for all intents and purposes, what happened.
LOL The Irony
Established Member
I saw 2 suggestions online and thought they were really good ideas.
The first suggestion was that when there's a wet race, there will be bolt on parts such as wheel arches and diffusers that direct the spray outwards. The 2nd suggestion was fitting the cars with transponders and helmets HUDs so the drivers can see each other in the spray. Since the cars are already fitted with transponders, it'll just be a case of coding in the details and fitting the cars with receivers and helmets with HUDs. These would also add weight to the cars, improving traction in slippery conditions.
The first suggestion was that when there's a wet race, there will be bolt on parts such as wheel arches and diffusers that direct the spray outwards. The 2nd suggestion was fitting the cars with transponders and helmets HUDs so the drivers can see each other in the spray. Since the cars are already fitted with transponders, it'll just be a case of coding in the details and fitting the cars with receivers and helmets with HUDs. These would also add weight to the cars, improving traction in slippery conditions.
nlogax
Established Member
I'm thinking of all the poor sods who trekked to Francorchamps to witness that debacle. Going there is always a bit of a gamble and you're nearly always going to get wet through the course of the four day schedule but yesterday's monsoon-like conditions were the worst I've seen since Montreal in 2011.
@LOL The Irony I like the first suggestion you've mentioned, though I do wonder about the cost for parts that may only get used once, maybe twice a season.
@LOL The Irony I like the first suggestion you've mentioned, though I do wonder about the cost for parts that may only get used once, maybe twice a season.
LOL The Irony
Established Member
Since part of the idea is having more weight to improve traction, they could use heavier and cheaper items, such as aluminium, although the 2nd idea is probably easier to implement.
Please explain how a transponder and HUD allows a driver to see exactly where the extremities of the other cars are and how it allows them to see the marshal posts and flags.
As for the first idea...cold brakes + wet conditions + heavier cars doesn't equal a safer race.
As for the first idea...cold brakes + wet conditions + heavier cars doesn't equal a safer race.
wireforever
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Have to agree with Lewis the fans at Spa deserve a refund.F1 chiefs are now looking into this after a interview given to Sky Sports
DelW
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Don't hold your breath ... consideration for spectators versus F1 keeping all the money = no contest (just like Sunday
).Masi and Domenicali: "commercial considerations didn't come into the decision" (to stage a non-race and call it a race). Yeah, right, pull the other one, it's got bells on.
O L Leigh
Established Member
I did wonder at the decision-making yesterday and thought whether or not a dry line might have appeared had they persisted behind the safety car. Mind you, this is Spa we’re taking about and, given the amount of rain falling, I doubt whether that would have been likely. However, with an hour left on the clock it seems like they bailed out quite early.
Although other support races ran over the course of the weekend, F1 cars do lift an awful lot more water than, say, a Porsche Carrera Cup car or a W Series F3 chassis. Had the conditions not improved safety could not have been assured. I do feel sorry for the fans, but that is the nature of following motorsport. Sometimes you’re going to see races scrubbed, and it’s not only on the F1 schedule. Rally fans often trail out into the middle of nowhere to spectate on a given stage only to have it cancelled meaning that they see nothing whatsoever all day.
Although other support races ran over the course of the weekend, F1 cars do lift an awful lot more water than, say, a Porsche Carrera Cup car or a W Series F3 chassis. Had the conditions not improved safety could not have been assured. I do feel sorry for the fans, but that is the nature of following motorsport. Sometimes you’re going to see races scrubbed, and it’s not only on the F1 schedule. Rally fans often trail out into the middle of nowhere to spectate on a given stage only to have it cancelled meaning that they see nothing whatsoever all day.
LOL The Irony
Established Member
The team will put the transponder that interacts with the start finish line in a specific place on the car. You then use the specific place as 0 and measure out an imaginary box to each extremity of the car, since you know how long each part is and how far away from the transponder it.
Well you put a transponder at the marshal posts. The flags are already shown on the cars' dashboards and could easily be incorporated into the HUD if needs be.
Don't they have that whole brake magic system that Lewis left on at Baku?
ETCS Level 3 then? That works well in the real-world. Oh, wait...
O L Leigh
Established Member
Given the margins exploited in motorsport, any transponder-based system would have to be very fast and very accurate. Any lag could mean the difference between a magic overtake and massive crash.
The problem, though, is aqua-planing. Racing drivers will push to the limits of grip, so any change in the depth of the surface water could result in a complete loss of adhesion. Even adding weight to the cars will not address this problem and neither would improving the wet tyre, as all you’d do is increase the speed at which the tyre lets go and the size of the inevitable crash.
The problem, though, is aqua-planing. Racing drivers will push to the limits of grip, so any change in the depth of the surface water could result in a complete loss of adhesion. Even adding weight to the cars will not address this problem and neither would improving the wet tyre, as all you’d do is increase the speed at which the tyre lets go and the size of the inevitable crash.
LOL The Irony
Established Member
It's using transponders and receivers in a completely localised and isolated setting. Nothing more, nothing less. It's nothing like ETCS.
It'll stop the drivers moaning about spray for a start.
They seem to be used pretty reliably in the rear view mirrors in WEC, although that might use a radar system, which could work just as well.
O L Leigh
Established Member
I think radar is more likely.
But what you’re proposing is some system that would allow drivers to ”see” what is happening ahead of them during reduced visibility by using some form of sensor to generate a virtual visualisation on a head-up display. I’m just not sure how realistic this might be given the number of times such a system might be considered necessary.
It's a moving block safety system. Exactly like ETCS. Except it's not even generating the braking curves for the driver.
Royston Vasey
Established Member
Away from the issue over refunds and safety, I think the more fundamental sporting issue here is that in effect, the governing body has manufactured, you might say manipulated a result. They've decided to run a sham of two laps, with no fair contest, so that they can give points and call it a result. Imagine any other sport where the governing body did this; it's unthinkable.
As I understand it they wanted to get the cars out on track to see if the conditions were good enough or heading in the right direction to be able to race but there was another shower and more on the way so they called it off.
O L Leigh
Established Member
Disagree.
The results were based on qualifying, which the FIA did not manipulate. Those drivers who found themselves at the head of the field did so on merit based on their performance on Saturday. You can argue that it was not representative, that Russell would likely have fallen back from 2nd and Norris would likely have climbed back up into the points, but I think that’s as far as you can take that line of argument. The choice was to scrub the event entirely or run a reduced event and award half points based on what was safe to be run.
DelW
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These points were awarded solely for qualifying performance, which has never happened before, and hasn't been agreed by the teams - some of whom are as incensed as many supporters are. That's a major reinterpretation of the rules, done unilaterally by race officials.
The rules state that half points can be awarded after two racing laps (though 14 is the previous fewest ever). On Sunday there were no racing laps at all - just two parade laps. It's verging on fraudulent to call it a race result.
The rules state that half points can be awarded after two racing laps (though 14 is the previous fewest ever). On Sunday there were no racing laps at all - just two parade laps. It's verging on fraudulent to call it a race result.
By the letter of the law, laps completed behind the safety car count as racing laps.
DelW
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I don't disagree with that being the letter of the law
But in my dictionary, "racing" is defined as "a competitive trial of speed", and I didn't see anything on Sunday that looked like that.
Sorry don't buy any of that. I also don't buy the the technology exists to implement in such a way or that it is safe for a driver to have his or her concentration and vision split between a HUD and the outside world. Marshal posts have to be visible, systems fail which is why they still use flags.
As someone else said, a "solution" looking for a problem.
O L Leigh
Established Member
I don't disagree with that being the letter of the law
But in my dictionary, "racing" is defined as "a competitive trial of speed", and I didn't see anything on Sunday that looked like that.
Irrespective of what your dictionary says, that’s how the rules in motorsport interpret the situation. Laps or time spent behind the safety car are counted as laps or time out of the total race distance or time, and that applies in every category. Sorry about that.
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Don’t disagree, but the difference is between looking at the HUD and looking through it. The focusing required by the eyes is different, and if you’re looking at the information shown on an HUD you’re not looking at what’s happening beyond it, and vice versa.
Racing was out of the question so what exactly was the solution?
I can't see how you can expect a racing driver to drive at 200+mph only using a HUD.
Geezertronic
Established Member
After Lando's crash and other crashes that weekend at Eau Rouge, and given the fact that death of Anthoine Hubert is still fresh in the memory, the decision not to race in those conditions is understandable
Royston Vasey
Established Member
But there is no mechanism for World Championship points to be awarded based on qualifying. In a sport where everything is negotiated and hotly contested between teams and the FIA, the FIA (or a mid-level employee of the FIA anyway) has unilaterally created a mechanism by running laps that they knew would never lead to green flag racing laps. Whatever the intentions (money, spicing up the championship, or good intentions that "any result is better than none") the result is really quite unsatisfactory because cars didn't compete under racing conditions.
Scrubbing the event entirely was a very valid option, and undoubtedly the safest, but instead, a result has been manufactured. I would still say manipulated (I accept this is a stronger term) because they've awarded points where there was no basis to do so. It's like a football game being called off after 10 minutes and a 1-0 win being awarded based on one team having more shots on target.
The law is an ass here because a complete race abandonment like this without a green flag ever being shown is extremely rare, and it was shown not to be adequately foreshadowed in the rules and procedures. The laps run were in effect formation laps and were only racing laps because they decided at that moment to call them racing laps (rather than additional formation laps, which was also done earlier) for their own reasons.
Masi's communications were quite embarrassing - he didn't really know what to do and using terms like "I would assume so" and "to the best of my knowledge" show that he was making it up as he went along based on his best guesses, and in a high stakes highly orchestrated proceduralised sport like this, that isn't really acceptable.
nlogax
Established Member
Agree. The technology really isn't there right now to turn conditions like those into approaching anywhere near safe enough for a race.