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Football

Donny Dave

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Has not Welbeck now signed for Arsenal ? Perhaps a move away from Manchester United to another club with a different style pattern of play could help his career.....as happened to Diego Forlan, who went from strength to strength, after leaving Manchester United.

I made my above post after I came home from work, but before I checked the deadline day ticker on the BBC website.

A fee of £16m (:shock:) has been agreed between Man Utd and Arsenal, but as yet no confirmation of the deal (they have until 1 am to get the paperwork submitted). Also, as yet, no confirmation of Falcao joining Man Utd.

Biggest deadline deal so far, Alvaro Negrado joining Valencia on loan for the season, with an option to make the move permanent.
 
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Saint66

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Welbeck's record of just 29 goals in 142 appearances at United is even worse than I expected... But as mentioned previously, he may well push on at Arsenal.

I suspect the Falcao deal will be announced soon... Telegraph have already confirmed it, and various Journo's expect it to go through. EDIT- Falcao deal confirmed.
 

richw

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Wellbeck and Ballotelli have cost the same, be interesting to see a statistical comparison for them.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Wellbeck and Ballotelli have cost the same, be interesting to see a statistical comparison for them.

Will that statistical comparison allow for the rather strange behaviour traits of Balotelli which may well have been the reason for the low price he commanded. Balotelli, Suarez, Tevez...all have unfortunate sides to their characters.
 

richw

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Will that statistical comparison allow for the rather strange behaviour traits of Balotelli which may well have been the reason for the low price he commanded. Balotelli, Suarez, Tevez...all have unfortunate sides to their characters.

How much do you think Liverpool would have got for Suarez if he had good behaviour?
 

Clip

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So nowthing for us on deadline day apart from losing Ben Arfa to Hull. Welldone pardew you inept tw*t.
 

CC 72100

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So nowthing for us on deadline day apart from losing Ben Arfa to Hull. Welldone pardew you inept tw*t.

Clip, you most likely know the situation as a Newcastle fan much better than us - why has Ben Arfa fallen out of favour? I've always rated him to be honest!
 

Clip

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Clip, you most likely know the situation as a Newcastle fan much better than us - why has Ben Arfa fallen out of favour? I've always rated him to be honest!

Lots of heresay and conjecture but I think he didnt like it when Pardew called him fat so he responded with something about Pardews poor training regeme and it all escalted from there I think.

I liked HBA but was a bit like Robert was with us - loads of talent but didnt have his game on all the time which is frustrating.
 

familyguy99

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Nice to see Oldham have won 1-0 against Bradford in JPT tonight :) and Bove scoring his first professional goal too.

I notice Chesterfield and Peterborough who both reach final for this competition are already out so aleast Oldham wouldn't be knock out by Chesterfield for Fifth time in this competition.
 

fowler9

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Will that statistical comparison allow for the rather strange behaviour traits of Balotelli which may well have been the reason for the low price he commanded. Balotelli, Suarez, Tevez...all have unfortunate sides to their characters.

Balotelli is doubtless barking mad but anyone who would pay the same for Wellbeck is even more insane.
 

CC 72100

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Balotelli is doubtless barking mad but anyone who would pay the same for Wellbeck is even more insane.

A lot of people said the same when Sturridge went to Liverpool.

Give Welbeck a decent run, play him in his proper position, and he'll do alright. And I hope he does - I've always backed him, Arsenal gives him a chance where he clearly hasn't been fancied by LVG or DM before him.
 

fowler9

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A lot of people said the same when Sturridge went to Liverpool.

Give Welbeck a decent run, play him in his proper position, and he'll do alright. And I hope he does - I've always backed him, Arsenal gives him a chance where he clearly hasn't been fancied by LVG or DM before him.

Fair point. I'll be shocked if Welbeck turns out like Sturridge though. People have said Balotelli was a panic buy, we bought what we needed though. Arsenal and Man U have spent a fortune at the last minute on players they didn't need though.
 

richw

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This article is interesting. Calculates value based on stats.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28984274

When Argentine international midfielder Angel Di Maria posed with his new Manchester United shirt last week, he had just become the most expensive footballer to be bought by a British club. But did Manchester United pay too much?

Since the deal was announced at the end of August, fans have been debating whether the record transfer fee of £59.7m ($99m) will turn out to be worth the money.

And with clubs in England's top division splashing a record £835m ($1.4bn) during the transfer window, how do they know if they are getting good value?

The CIES Football Observatory, which is part-funded by the sport's governing body FIFA and affiliated with the University of Neuchatel in Switzerland, has come up with a statistical model which estimates the transfer value of every player in the top divisions in England, Spain, Germany, Italy and France.

The model considers a number of factors including previous transfer fees, a player's age, length of contract remaining, level of the club team played for, number of matches played, goals scored, number of assists, dribbles and tackles. International appearances, with consideration of which country the footballer has played for, are also taken into account.


The Football Observatory's valuations have been accurate in predicting actual transfer fees in more than 80% of cases, according to the organisation's co-founder Raffaele Poli. He says this demonstrates that the transfer market is rational.

But his model had estimated that Di Maria was worth around £36m ($60m), as opposed to the £59.7m ($99m) United actually paid.

"Of course, Di Maria is an outstanding player but I think this is more related to the very bad start to the season, the bad season they had last year and the fact that the player himself didn't really want to leave Real Madrid, and Real Madrid didn't want or need to transfer the player," says Poli.

He thinks United also paid around £13m ($22m) too much for midfielder Ander Herrera, who signed for £29m ($48m). The model valued teenage left back Luke Shaw at around £27m ($45m), but he moved for that amount plus an extra £5m ($8m) in add-ons.

So according to the Football Observatory, United overpaid by almost £42m ($70m) on those three transfers.


Football agent Seb Ewen, however, cautions that while statistics can give a good indication of a player's value, they also have their limits.

"We're not dealing in commodities, we're dealing with humans, you deal with emotions, you deal with families, you deal with many tragedies as well within these players. These aren't machines, they aren't robots who consistently perform and produce because if they were, it wouldn't be fun."

He says a player's transfer fee is determined by the situations of the clubs who are buying and selling, the contractual situation of the player, as well as general economic and market forces.

"There are many things that you can't account for and because of that reason alone, I think it's impossible to assess and quantify accurately via statistics," he says.

In fact Ewen thinks the Di Maria deal represents good value. "Somebody like Di Maria doesn't come along very often and the amount of hope that he can give a club can't be underlined either.

"If you can go out and make that sort of statement of intent and buy in world stars for your club, it's never going to be a negative," he says.

Despite Poli's model being right 80% of the time, when it comes to predicting a player's value on the transfer market, he acknowledges there are always exceptions.

Another of these is the summer's eye-catching transfer of Mario Balotelli who moved from AC Milan to Liverpool for £16m ($27m).


As a 24-year-old Italian international with a good goal scoring record in Italy and England, Balotelli's true value is £28m ($47m) says Poli.

"For Balotelli it's a bit the opposite of Di Maria." He says the fee was lower than the model calculated because of "non-sporting issues".

"Balotelli unfortunately wasn't able in the past to behave in the best way. I would say that off the pitch and sometimes on the pitch... so this also was reflected in the price."

Poli offers another example of a player who has moved clubs for less than his "true" value - Luis Suarez, who has left Liverpool for Barcelona.

Before the World Cup, the striker would have commanded a fee in excess of the £86m ($143m) Real Madrid paid for Gareth Bale last year. However, after Suarez bit Giorgio Chiellini in the match between Uruguay and Italy, his fee dropped by £20m ($33m), to a reported £75m ($125m).

When it comes to both buying and selling, the Premier League team that has done best in the latest transfer window is Chelsea, says Poli.

Although his model shows the club paid £4m ($7m) over the odds for full-back Filipe Luis, it got a bargain with Diego Costa who is worth £8m ($13m) more than the £32m ($53m) Chelsea paid Atletico Madrid.


Midfielder Cesc Fabregas, at a reported £27m ($45m), was the right price or slightly less than he should have been, and striker Loic Remy was nearly £2.5m ($4m) cheaper than his "true" value.

It's thought that Chelsea received £40m ($66m) from Paris St-Germain for defender David Luiz - significantly more than the £23m ($38m) price that the Football Observatory put on his head. Midfielder Kevin de Bruyne (£16.7m; $28m) transferred to Wolfsburg for £3m ($5m) more than his "true" value, while Romelu Lukaku's £28m ($47m) transfer to Everton was the "right" price.

For fans of the top clubs, though, there is one statistic that will justify a player's transfer fee at the end of the season - the number of trophies they help the team win.
 

CC 72100

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Fair point. I'll be shocked if Welbeck turns out like Sturridge though. People have said Balotelli was a panic buy, we bought what we needed though. Arsenal and Man U have spent a fortune at the last minute on players they didn't need though.

I disagree, I think he's a decent player at a decent price. A complete knob mind but I'll leave that to one side.If he remains focused, he'll do alright there.
 

Clip

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Fair point. I'll be shocked if Welbeck turns out like Sturridge though. People have said Balotelli was a panic buy, we bought what we needed though. Arsenal and Man U have spent a fortune at the last minute on players they didn't need though.

He grabbed 20 goals in 53 starts though and thats not a bad return whilst being mainly played on the left. Who knows what he wouldve done if he had been played down the middle. I fear that Arsenal may have just got the purchase of the summer at that price.
 

CC 72100

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He grabbed 20 goals in 53 starts though and thats not a bad return whilst being mainly played on the left. Who knows what he wouldve done if he had been played down the middle. I fear that Arsenal may have just got the purchase of the summer at that price.

I agree, sad to see him go, there would have been players who I would have pushed out loooong before Welbeck!
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I agree, sad to see him go, there would have been players who I would have pushed out loooong before Welbeck!

It was only today that I heard that Welbeck had been on the books of Manchester United since the age of 8.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
He grabbed 20 goals in 53 starts though and thats not a bad return whilst being mainly played on the left.

His scoring record for the full England team is 8 goals in 26 matches.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Many of those were as a sub though weren't they?

Even better...he did not have as minutes to score in those International matches as he would have if he had been in the starting-line up.

Going back quite a number of years, in league matches, Fairclough of Liverpool made quite a reputation for himself as a goalscorer, when introduced as a substitute.
 

Kite159

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Poor turnout for the England friendly tonight, just over 40,000

Makes me wonder if it would be more if the England team were allowed to tour the country instead of being forced to remain playing at Wembley until it's paid for.
 

richw

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Poor turnout for the England friendly tonight, just over 40,000

Makes me wonder if it would be more if the England team were allowed to tour the country instead of being forced to remain playing at Wembley until it's paid for.

As it's a case of paying for the stadium, if they half the ticket price will they fill to capacity and therefore 2.5 times more income?
 

MidnightFlyer

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Unlucky guys...

England tied into home games at Wembley until stadium is paid for

England might not be able play home games away from Wembley for "eight to nine years" until the Football Association is "debt free", according to Club England chief Adrian Bevington.
The national team played at grounds across England while Wembley was being rebuilt for £757m from 2000 to 2007.
"[Wembley] has to be paid for," Bevington wrote on Twitter.
"The reality is that the FA has to put events calendar on to do this. When debt free in 8/9 years, more choice."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29045977
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Well then, was that not a two-hour TV programme comprised of 30 minutes platitudinous waffle and 90 minutes of the most embarrassing reasons of why the England team were so bad at the last World Cup Finals. I managed to save my sanity for the 30 minute pre-match waffle by turning over to watch the last half-hour of Time Team (who were a far more interesting "team" than those purporting to represent their country at football).

Even Ken Loach at his most grittiest drama-wise could not have written a drama that was so lacking in hope and ambition as the fare prepared for a half-empty Wembley Stadium. A match between The Cloggers Arms and The Wheeltappers and Shunters Social Club could not have plumbed the same levels of football despair as that played out with so much pathos this evening.
 

fowler9

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I won't be gutted to be proved wrong that Wellbeck is anything more than ordinary. I will also be happy to see proof that Roy Hodgson is anything more than a very ordinary manager. I'm not sure that any proof will be forthcoming.
 

richw

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I won't be gutted to be proved wrong that Wellbeck is anything more than ordinary. I will also be happy to see proof that Roy Hodgson is anything more than a very ordinary manager. I'm not sure that any proof will be forthcoming.

And we are your average ordinary team so a perfect fit?
No decent manager will take it as it ruins reputations - Steve McClaron, Sven, Taylor, hoddle.
Roy won't be bothered about his reputation as he will retire I imagine at his age soon anyway.

England fans expect world class from average players. In all realities Switzerland should beat us fairly easy I'd expect.

Fortunately we will make the tournament because so many teams will qualify now, it's like half of the entries.
 

fowler9

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And we are your average ordinary team so a perfect fit?
No decent manager will take it as it ruins reputations - Steve McClaron, Sven, Taylor, hoddle.
Roy won't be bothered about his reputation as he will retire I imagine at his age soon anyway.

England fans expect world class from average players. In all realities Switzerland should beat us fairly easy I'd expect.

Fortunately we will make the tournament because so many teams will qualify now, it's like half of the entries.

True mate. The thing is I am not a massive England fan so it doesn't bother me too much. Also England whilst small is densely populated, with a lot of money and a strong football heritage. You would expect its national team would perform better than it does.
 

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