First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[Zoe]

It's not only that there is no guarantee that it will be debated in parliament, it will not have any effect because First will have a legally binding contract next week while Parliament does not return until September to have a chance to debate it.

Not if the signing is delayed so that the Transport Committee discuss the issue first as has been requested.

 

[RPI]

Not if the signing is delayed so that the Transport Committee discuss the issue first as has been requested.

I really can't see that happening.

 

[williamn]

I think some of you guys who have actually seen the VT propoganda on their CIS screens should complain to ATOC and the DFT. It is getting stupid now, Virgin are just embarrasing themselves. Has anyone seen the "Let First Trasform the West coast" facebook page?

Well, first your spelling is quite embarrassing.

Second, I think its totally legitimate for any company to fight to keep their business - and I think Virgin are quite within their rights to do so. If they're good at PR and First isn't, well that's First's misfortune.

Third, I think its terrible that the public in this debate are simply dismissed as idiots who don't know about the franchise process. No, they don't, but there is clearly a lot of feeling that a lot of them would quite like to keep Virgin, because in the eyes of many of their customers they have done a pretty decent job.

 

[185]

We love them ace red virgin penderwotsit trains

= We like those ace trains paid for by HM Government.

 

[Skimble19]

Well, first your spelling is quite embarrassing.

Second, I think its totally legitimate for any company to fight to keep their business - and I think Virgin are quite within their rights to do so. If they're good at PR and First isn't, well that's First's misfortune.

Third, I think its terrible that the public in this debate are simply dismissed as idiots who don't know about the franchise process. No, they don't, but there is clearly a lot of feeling that a lot of them would quite like to keep Virgin, because in the eyes of many of their customers they have done a pretty decent job.

The views "in the eyes" of customers who have no real understanding about what's really been happening over the last 15 years are irrelevant in the eyes of the DfT, end of. Have you actually read some of the comments on the various Facebook pages?!?!

 

[WatcherZero]

We love them ace red virgin penderwotsit trains

= We like those ace trains paid for by HM Government.

NHS Trusts should stop claiming they heal people! Its all paid for by Government money.


Sheesh.....

(Ive not seen a topic so divisive on this board since 'Everything was done better and cheaper in BR days!' and 'OMG Tocs actually make a 5% profit, nationalise the rail profits!' )

 

[David10]

I think its totally legitimate for any company to fight to keep their business - and I think Virgin are quite within their rights to do so

Virgin are entitled to put their case, but carrying on like a spoiled child isn't the way to do it. The CIS are there to provide information, not wage propaganda campaigns, next we will have 'Vote Labour' flashing up.

As station managers they are required to be neutral in terms of displaying timetables and selling tickets for other TOCs, I think the same should apply to their dealings with the DfT.

The longer it goes on, the sillier Virgin look and they must be rapidly running out of friends at the DfT. I think Stagecoach's silence on the issue speaks volumes about what they think of Branson's campaign.

 

[MKB]

The level of debate on this thread and the increasingly entrenched views is disappointing to read.

We don't yet know the the full details of the First bid, only the juicy bits that they want us to know. For some reason, Virgin reneged on their promise to release details of their bid several days ago, presumably on legal advice while there is an outside chance of seeking a judicial review. I find it impossible to form an opinion on whether First or Virgin are the right choice until we have all the facts. I'm amazed others can be so sure, one way or the other.

However, as both a regular WCML user and a taxpayer, I am very concerned at the reports that the quality of competing bids in any auction is completely ignored, provided (a) a certain minimum standard is achieved, and (b) one bid promises returns that are a certain percentage (5%-6%?) ahead of any other bids. That makes no sense at all to me.

If I needed to get a quote for work done at home, it's certainly not how I (or surely any sane person?) would go about choosing a workman. Quality would be the primary rather the secondary consideration.

Of course, it gets tricky (but not impossible) to evaluate if one workman promises very high quality at a very high price against another who promises good quality against a moderate price. You have to find some way of quantifying the additional quality to determine if it's worth paying for. That's what I would expect a sensible government to do when awarding any contracts, whether they be in transport, healthcare or elsewhere. Simply going solely on price is stupid, and is largely the reason why contracted-out public services are generally so dire.

The Transport Committee is right to raise their concerns about the way railway franchises are let.

 

[williamn]

yes the passengers views are important. They may not understand the nitty gritty of things but it is HIGHLY unusual for there to be this much resistance to a franchise change. It may have been encouraged by Virgin, but still, people, now almost 100,000 of them, would not have signed a petition if they didn't feel in some way strongly about it.

And I suspect the only people who feel like Virgin are behaving like 'spoilt brats' are the people on this board who for some reason have it in for them. To me, they're just a business doing what any business would do, trying to retain it.

 

[HH]

You mean those other two losing bidders, the ones who had a bit of dignity and were able to keep their toys in the pram?

While SNCF/Keolis was one losing bidder, the other was Abellio, not GoVia. Someone asked about their scores. I heard a rumour that the SNCF one was awful, probably non-deliverable; and I heard Abellio was around the same as First.

The possible reason Virgin haven't published their plans - they're not as good as First's.

 

[bnm]

I was sad when Thames Television went (also showing my age). No Internet then to share outrage and disappointment.

And I missed TSW went it went to Westcountry Television. Mostly because Gus Honeybun (try Google) never survived the transfer. He had survived the previous franchise change from Westward to TSW. I think he was quietly euthanised.

The trading name in the bid submission was 'First West Coast Limited'.

No. The bid vehicle was "First West Coast Limited" and this will possibly be the official company name. I've seen no mention anywhere that this will be the trading name. Who would have "Limited" in their trading name anyway?

I expect to see First West Coast Limited t/a something or other.

Rather like the current West Coast Trains Limited t/a Virgin Trains

 

[junglejames]

And if they are going to double up as nuclear flask trains does that mean pairs of DRS 20s and 37s for haulage ?

Oh yes. See my first post, where the campaigners would have you believe all services would be hauled by 50yr old 60mph class 20s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh I'm sure everyone in here knows I don't like First Group, one of my posts previously in this thread details why in great detail, ya know, management and recruitment policies etc.

I thought it was because Mr O Toole had personally guarenteed he would be fitting 3+2 seats in the pendys?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Third, I think its terrible that the public in this debate are simply dismissed as idiots who don't know about the franchise process. No, they don't, but there is clearly a lot of feeling that a lot of them would quite like to keep Virgin, because in the eyes of many of their customers they have done a pretty decent job.

Read some of the comments, and its obvious why the campaigners should be ignored.
People think they are losing fast services
People think pendys are running away to the scrapman
People dont like FCC (and? whats that got to do with FWC/ VT?)
People think First purposely didnt give them extra trains on FGW
People think First purposely gave them short trains on FTPE
People think Virgin spent al that money on the WCML upgrade.
People think First trains are always late and Virgin never are

Then when you try and point out the facts, you get accused of working for First.

If people dont know the truth, and dont know what happening, how can we let them make decisions which effect more than just 100,000 people.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Second, I think its totally legitimate for any company to fight to keep their business - and I think Virgin are quite within their rights to do so. If they're good at PR and First isn't, well that's First's misfortune.

1- Virgin have already been fighting for their business. They did it in their bid. They lost the fight. Virgin are now trying to plant an unfair right hook after the final bell has been sounded.
I tell you what. I dont think Spain should have beaten Italy in the Euros. The match should have carried on and on and on indefinitely until Italy were ahead.

2- We dont care about PR. We want a good rail service. Should we get a worse rail service just because they have better PR? That could be the same for any companies. What if say Connex had good PR? Should we allow them to manipulate people to get a franchise?

 

[IanXC]

I wonder how much more of Virgin's embarassing antics Stagecoach will put up with before they feel the need to distance themselves from VRG?

Considering the ownership stakes I wonder if Stagecoach have effectively prevented Virgin taking the official appeal route? A press release from Stagecoach could finish Virgin off nicely, "the campaign does not have our support", "it has been agree that the joint venture will end with the end of the franchise". Nicely points out to that VRG is half owned by a bus company.

 

[Whistler40145]

The sooner First sign the franchise agreement the better. The fact is that delaying the decision won't give Virgin the franchise.

I think we all should get used to the fact that First will be operating on the WCML .

 

[Mr Spock]

yes the passengers views are important. They may not understand the nitty gritty of things but it is HIGHLY unusual for there to be this much resistance to a franchise change. It may have been encouraged by Virgin, but still, people, now almost 100,000 of them, would not have signed a petition if they didn't feel in some way strongly about it.

And I suspect the only people who feel like Virgin are behaving like 'spoilt brats' are the people on this board who for some reason have it in for them. To me, they're just a business doing what any business would do, trying to retain it.

People are being encouraged to get their family anf friends to sign the petition i.e. people that are not really bothered but will do it anyway, others are just doing it for the sake of doing it because of the publicity campaign.

I feel that Virgin are acting like spoilt brats but I actually wanted them to win (see my previous posts) but now the decision has been made they should accept it. They obviously have no real grounds to complain and thats why they are going down this route and using the "public opinion want us to carry on" to justify it.

 

[Morgsie]

I have been away from this site, what have I missed? Can someone explain by quoting me or message me.

I have signed the petition and I am a member of the pro-Virgin FB groups: reinstate Virgin etc. The whole system has to be changed

 

[Mr Spock]

I have been away from this site, what have I missed? Can someone explain by quoting me or message me.

I have signed the petition and I am a member of the pro-Virgin FB groups: reinstate Virgin etc. The whole system has to be changed

The system might need changing but Virgin knew the rules when they submitted their bid so unless the rules were not adhered to i do not see that they can complain when they lose.

 

[Morgsie]

The system might need changing but Virgin knew the rules when they submitted their bid so unless the rules were not adhered to i do not see that they can complain when they lose.

The Virgin Bid was more deliverable and on customer satisfaction First scored higher but has a poor record nationally.

Labour had 13 years to change the system which was promised in the mid 1990s, they kept the status quo when in Government

 

[87015]

The Virgin Bid was more deliverable and on customer satisfaction First scored higher but has a poor record nationally.

If the First bid is undeliverable then so is the Virgin one - they may well prove to be so. And anyway, remind me what history Virgin have of delivering franchises again.... :roll:

 

[Hazlehead]

There is no doubt that Virgin have a much nicer paint job!
The way the TOCs are chosen needs an overhaul!
Passengers should be able to vote for their new TOC!!

I have been away from this site, what have I missed? Can someone explain by quoting me or message me.

I have signed the petition and I am a member of the pro-Virgin FB groups: reinstate Virgin etc. The whole system has to be changed

If and its a big IF the dft do a rethink they won't simply give it back to Virgin or say here you go Mr Branson you can have it for the next 14 years. The whole tender process will have to restart again costing bidders millions more pounds and delaying any improvements and new services. As It's been said many times here Virgin lost get over it move on.

So its likely that the e-petition will hit 100,000 . But how many of them are actually Passengers and not staff, family, friends, celebs & just people who jump on the bandwagon without knowing the facts? 100,000 but Virgin carry 31 million people a year? Not so many of them seem to be complaining so not even 1% of passengers

 

[Metroland]

The sooner First sign the franchise agreement the better. The fact is that delaying the decision won't give Virgin the franchise.

I think we all should get used to the fact that First will be operating on the WCML .

It looks like parliament will investigate the deal. Not only is the petition about to pass the magic 100,000 name mark, the cross-party transport committee look to investigate.

The chair of a cross-party committee of MPs called on the government to delay the award of the west coast main line rail franchise, won by FirstGroup last week, to allow parliamentary scrutiny of the deal.

The most lucrative of Britain's rail franchises, currently run by Virgin Trains, will change hands in December after FirstGroup outbid competitors by a minimum of £700m – a large amount that led the defeated incumbent and others to question the figures.

But Louise Ellman, chair of the transport committee, has written to transport secretary Justine Greening asking her to postpone sign-off on the contract, due on 28 August, to allow the committee to review aspects that had caused concern. She said there were questions over FirstGroup's ability to deliver the promised payments, whether services would be affected and what sanctions would be imposed if the firm walked away.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/aug/23/mps-seek-review-west-coast-rail-bid

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think a good point is raised above by Terrier all these comments on website, all these e-petition signings, at least a third will be people who virtually never get the train, another third most likely rarely get the train. The other third will be regular travellers.

People are rightly asking, why is this the first franchise lost with this reaction. Well has any franchise ever done what Virgin has when loosing? Claimed so many bad things about the new TOC and kicked up such a fuss. Usually franchise changes go by without 95% of people noticing. Its only because Virgin made it high profile that this happened.

 

[Hazlehead]

Interesting article in telegraph today. Sorry can't post link using mobile phone

It's in the financial section

 

[curly42]

Chatting to a guy in the pub last night who told me he'd signed the petition because "I travel several times a year to Carlisle and I don't want to be doing it in those silly little two car trains that First run" !!
He also mentioned that if Virgin do lose it,they shouldn't let First have their staff or trains.
I wonder how many of the 100,000 have views that match those ?

 

[Ferret]

Curly - lots. There's been some right gibber and piffle on faceache apparently, just about par for the course!

 

[YorkshireBear]

My other concern is with passenegers and *some* staff seeming to want to boycot the new First franchise, they could struggle to make their growth targets with all this negative press.
People believe what they read.

 

[Mr Spock]

Glad I don't go on facebook, by the sounds of some of the postings i would probably have died laughing by now.

 

[Ferret]

Glad I don't go on facebook, by the sounds of some of the postings i would probably have died laughing by now.

Me too! A friend spent some of her time last night reading through the nonsense. She said it was entertaining!

 

[MK Tom]

This is one of the principal issues with democracy - people who have no idea what they're talking about influence events. I bet 70% of the people signing the 'bring back Virgin' petition have no idea how franchises work, why First were chosen, why some other people take issue with that, how Virgin have performed over the course of the last thirteen years... Some of them don't realise it'll still be the same trains and staff. If you can't be bothered to read into something before speaking out then your opinion really didn't ought to count for anything.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Me too! A friend spent some of her time last night reading through the nonsense. She said it was entertaining!

Some of it has me in stiches. Ive been accused of working for first, i just pointed to my profile and said, studying Civil engineering at university, hardly gonna work for First now am i???