Metal Mickey
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It is indeed
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First Group: General Discussion
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Lynford1976
Member
- Joined
- 3 Oct 2015
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Ah. British Bus. Don't get me started on them...
Cheers Drive
Member
I wouldn’t say struggling these are the best buses in their fleet by far well maintained and the best to drive all the new stuff is boring to drive can’t beat a classic B9
Give me a B10BLE any day of the week(as a passenger of course
)
I was going through the entire First Bus fleet page recently and there is a broad list of garages which now operate electric vehicles. Based on that, I wanted to find out what proportion of vehicles with First bus were now electric? I would be interested to hear if there is a rough percentage?
I’m aware that Leicester and York has an all electric fleet. I note that the following now operates electrics: Leeds, Norwich, Somerset, Bristol/Bath & West, Essex, Cymru, Aberdeen, Glasgow, Portsmouth and London. Feel free to correct me if I have missed any others on the list.
I’m aware that Leicester and York has an all electric fleet. I note that the following now operates electrics: Leeds, Norwich, Somerset, Bristol/Bath & West, Essex, Cymru, Aberdeen, Glasgow, Portsmouth and London. Feel free to correct me if I have missed any others on the list.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I had a look at the First fleet on bus lists and did a very rough and ready tally up. Reckon just under 500 deckers (incl repowers) and just over 400 singles.
Done a quick analysis from the Bustimes.org fleet list and excluded training vehicles from the total vehicle count:
| Company | Total Vehicles | Electric vehicles | % Electric |
Aberdeen | 147 | 60 | 40.82% |
Aircoach | 52 | 0.00% | |
Bee Network - First Manchester | 64 | 0.00% | |
Berkshire & The Thames Valley | 71 | 1 | 1.41% |
Bradford | 150 | 0.00% | |
Bristol, Bath & the West | 574 | 100 | 17.42% |
Buses of Somerset | 60 | 25 | 41.67% |
Cymru | 218 | 8 | 3.67% |
Eastern Counties | 330 | 78 | 23.64% |
Ensignbus | 78 | 2 | 2.56% |
Essex | 306 | 58 | 18.95% |
Greater Glasgow | 657 | 233 | 35.46% |
Halifax | 106 | 0.00% | |
Huddersfield | 84 | 0.00% | |
Kernow | 82 | 0.00% | |
Lakeside Coaches | 20 | 0.00% | |
Leeds | 305 | 97 | 31.80% |
Leicester | 97 | 92 | 94.85% |
Portsmouth, Fareham & Gosport | 139 | 66 | 47.48% |
Potteries | 90 | 0.00% | |
South Yorkshire | 307 | 0.00% | |
Wessex, Dorset & South Somerset | 57 | 0.00% | |
Worcestershire | 61 | 0.00% | |
York | 86 | 86 | 100.00% |
York Pullman | 59 | 0.00% | |
Total | 4200 | 906 | 21.57% |
York Pullman's fleet totals over 170 vehicles
Lynford1976
Member
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- 3 Oct 2015
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- 213
What's the electric vehicle at Slough?
Marcus Fryer
Member
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- 27 Dec 2014
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- 887
Maybe it’s referring to 27004, a Yutong G12 for Flixbus, not tracked since 12 August and is diesel anyway.
Thank you for the numbers, admittedly I thought it would be a bit higher than 21.57%, but 906 vehicles overall and 12 out of 25 fleets having electric vehicles is still quite impressive given the fact that most electrics were new in the last two years or so. I was surprised that Aberdeen has nearly half its fleet as electrics, that went unnoticed by myself.
Intriguing to see which garages will be the last to operate pure diesel vehicles.
I always see more photos of the electric deckers and less of the singles, so it made it seem as though there were a lot less singles, but around 400 does sound accurate given that Portsmouth have a lot in their blue livery and Leicester has quite a lot of singles too. I sampled the fleet in Norwich and there weren’t many electric singles around, predominantly deckers there.
Haribolover06
Member
does the aberdeen number include the 25 hydrogens that are long term out of use?
mattb7tl
Member
I do not like this company but they have done an amazing job with electrics from the rollout to the aesthetics. It makes a massive change from the lack of renewal company wide over the last decade (or two) and that percentage is a lot higher than expected.
The Potteries (Stoke-on-Trent), Adderley Green garage i suspect will one, due to not being a highly profitable area
You are correct, think I got carried away with the copy and paste formula on Yutong
buslad1988
Member
- Joined
- 28 Dec 2018
- Messages
- 650
Guess you have to remember the areas with no electric vehicles so far could probably be because op co’s were unsuccessful with zebra bids in those places, or the local authorities in aren’t as supportive.
Infrastructure will also play a part, depots which aren’t suitable for electrification.
Not to mention the areas where franchising is on the horizon.
Infrastructure will also play a part, depots which aren’t suitable for electrification.
Not to mention the areas where franchising is on the horizon.
stevenedin
Established Member
Thanks for this. I never realised that First Greater Glasgow had the most buses. Has this always been the case or were there more then they used to have Manchester etc?
darloscott
Member
And they have at least one electric TCe12
SSmith2009
Member
One has to wonder if these could/will be repowered to electric at some point.
68 electrics plus 7 diesels (2 trainers and 5 for EMA shuttles).
They are owned b Aberdeen City Council,so they would need to be bought, as well as the cost of conversion.
With this, are the council still building a new hydrogen station just outside the city? as surely at this point it would be easier to allow First to have a somewhat a temporary station at the depot as the oldest is what 6 years old now? so really the cost wont be able to be recovered by the council so meaning they are wasting money & with these being non standard for First also really the UK my preference would be to sell these id say to metrobus then compensate First for the loss of the buses & down time to allow them to use said compensation to buy more new or transfer more NewPowers? to make the fleet more electric
It is a joint venture between BP and the Council that is building the green hydrogen facility. There is now a fuelling station at the First depot, but the buses are not ready to use it yet. As far as I am aware First only pay to use the buses, so there must have been some arrangement for the periods the buses have not been available for one reason or another.
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overthewater
Established Member
- Joined
- 16 Apr 2012
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- 9,086
The bigger Question I think we should be asking is what on earth has happened to First Glasgow, that had over 1000 buses around 10 years ago and before covid it was down to 800, it seems to have lost 1/3 of its fleets ?!!? Worse still since early 2000s they replaced alot of deckers with single deckers. I know with every service change there were making cuts but that alot of buses off the road overall, once you see the full picture.
mattb7tl
Member
The core network.
First and their urban core networks ended up standardised (more or less group wide) around a ten minute frequency. Post pandemic it looks like many of those cores dropped to fifteen minutes. That change alone is basically a one third cut.
If you have 1000 buses running the core network at a ten minute frequency and you drop the frequency to a fifteen minute frequency it would be a reduction of 33.3%, coming out to 667. It is not far off of the current total.
BULLSAREMAGIC
Member
Looking at the strength of fleets in general the reduction reflects the huge loss of bus service mileage over the last 10 years. The size of Bradford's fleet and that of the Potteries I find alarming when reflecting what good bus territory they once were
Metal Mickey
Member
Between 1997 and 2004, only 10 new double-deckers arrived, in addition to 10 second-hand triaxle Leyland Olympians from Hong Kong via Manchester, and numerous clapped-out heaps (mainly LOs and Dennis Dominators) from Manchester and London. I think it was from 2004 onwards that double-deckers began to be ordered for Glasgow and other First divisions in large numbers again.
There are a number of factors you’ve got to consider that have contributed to declining patronage over the past 30 years, particularly in Glasgow. Areas that were historically prime bus-operating territory, such as Easterhouse, Cranhill, Milton and Drumchapel, saw the demolition of tenement housing, replaced by much smaller houses or none at all (brownfield land), as well as the loss of the multi-storeys at Red Road, Sighthill and Prospecthill Circus. More recently, the development of out-of-town shopping centres and retail parks — which don’t lend themselves to practical bus operation — has led to the decline of the traditional high street in places like Coatbridge and Paisley. Since 2020, online shopping and hybrid working have contributed even further to an already declining bus market.
However, I dare say there are also a number of internal reasons for the reduction in service provision, such as the appeasement of shareholders to deliver specific profit margins or accountants’ desire for improved efficiency and cost control.
I could be here all day summarising the many reasons why I think bus operators have shrunk their businesses, but that’s just some of my assessment.
overthewater
Established Member
- Joined
- 16 Apr 2012
- Messages
- 9,086
There is one other important fact which never get spoke about. When first took over Scotrail, they had a near Monopoly over many routes around Glasgow. To this day it's still easier to get a Scotrail Train into certain Housing estates than using the buses.
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Two aspects that are not mentioned...
Improvements to rail services - routes like Whifflet were reopened, new stations opened, routes electrified and better rolling stock.
Motorway developments like the M77 and M80 - I can't think of a UK city that is quite as penetrated by motorways as Glasgow
I might also add that whilst there are some bus lanes and bus priority, it really isn't as good as it could be.
Cheers Drive
Member
Well I was just saying of what available right now but yes I could not agree anymore. I’ve driven a few of them but my fave times were in Bath doing the late night 178 or 231 or the uni routes and such a dream to drive that change in to third gear sounds so beautiful definitely fave bus by far driver and passenger so solid to drive so much power and great cab layout always decent passenger saloon heating mainly in the Wright bodied ones I tried an Alexander Dennis body and it was falling apart lolGive me a B10BLE any day of the week(as a passenger of course
317 forever
Established Member
Given the post from Friday suggesting First had 4200 buses just before closing Kernow, I wonder whether they are on the cusp of effectively becoming ThirdBus, behind not just Stagecoach but also Go-Ahead?
Go-Ahead overtook Arriva not so long ago.
Go-Ahead overtook Arriva not so long ago.