Airdecker and Bath sightseeing will be ran from Weston Island then!After the London Overground rail contract win yesterday, FirstGroup plc acquires sightseeing bus operations
FirstGroup plc acquires sightseeing bus operations | First Bus UK News
FirstGroup acquires RATP Dev’s sightseeing operations in London and Bath The operations include a freehold depot in south west London and a leased depot in Bath Bath to Bristol Airport Airdecker service also part of the deal Acquisition part of FirstGroup’s growth and diversification strategy...news.firstbus.co.uk
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First Group: General Discussion
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Not immediately - they have the existing lease for Burnett so no rush.
I was surprised First didn’t buy it with the other RATP ops and sees them return to the Bath open top market
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Did they introduce it after losing the concession to operate under City Sightseeing?
Goldfish62
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From memory it was around that time, but they could have still retained The Original Tour brand which was their main brand in London anyway.
Metal Mickey
Member
Whilst First are looking to enter some new ventures, it seems that local bus operations are having their timetables constantly messed around with and they still have possibly one of the worst websites and apps in the industry - They should look no further than the likes of Go-Ahead to see how it’s done, but this is just purely my opinion.
Whiteway215
Established Member
So FirstBus will return to open top sightseeing in Bath.
First Bath withdrew from their Bristol VR open top City Tour back in November 2004.
First Bath withdrew from their Bristol VR open top City Tour back in November 2004.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
There's two separate things here...
First has to diversify as they are likely to lose some of their most lucrative operations in West Yorkshire and Glasgow, hence the moves into Flixbus, wider coaching work, and back into London.
However, the provincial bus operations seem to be a mixed bag. On the plus side, there is substantial investment in new fleet with vehicles appearing in places that haven't had much investment in years e.g. Taunton, Basildon, and a much better fleet profile overall. However, the focus on margin etc and the introduction of daft AI timetables (without sufficient guardrails) to drive out PVR reductions and a loss of local management is much more retrograde.
For marketing and info... Now I know that some enthusiasts will bemoan the loss of many local liveries - I think it was getting a little out of hand (see Bristol) but some of the marketing benefits will be lost (see Jurassic Coaster). However, I think some rationalisation was perhaps in order. As regards websites, Go Ahead went with Passenger and that is the arguably one of the best. I don't feel First's is that bad - perhaps a low bar but not as bad as Stagecoach or Arriva.
Metal Mickey
Member
The fleet investment is welcome and the partnership with FlixBus and the acquisition of small coach operators is understandable given that they could eventually be exiting some of their larger operations as a result of franchising.
Agree with you re Arriva’s website but at least Stagecoach’s electronic timetables are easy to view.
As for First’s National livery, there does seem to be a lot of buses repainted in cement and blackcurrant devoid of any identity, not even a First logo as I know they have abandoned local names with the exception of Leicester and Portsmouth. You wouldn’t open a shop or pub without any signage above the door but obviously running the mileage takes importance over the appearance of the vehicle.
Goldfish62
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It's the one thing got right in Cornwall - repaints haven't re-entered service until all the branding is completely and correctly applied. Elsewhere I see logos and /or stripes missing on various repaints.
Flange Squeal
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It seemed like RATP were trying to build up their own international brand following the pandemic, with the now-closed operations in Bristol, Cardiff and Windsor also adopting the 'Tootbus' name. Further afield, it was also adopted in Paris following the renaming of their 'The(L’) Open Tour' in Paris, and used on their Brussels operation after winning the contract from STIB/MIVB (Brussels Intercommunal Transport Company). These all seemed to occur during 2021.
I seem to recall reading somewhere at the time that ‘TO-OT’ was supposed to have been a blend of the previous London and Paris tour names - either ‘The Original’ and ‘Open Tour’, or the other way around (‘The Open’ and ‘Original Tour’).
There was also previously an 'Extrapolitan' name that appeared on vehicles as a small circle logo, which appeared to try and act as a link between RATP's and other independent open-top services around the world, but that seemed to die a death and certainly didn't become the next 'City Sightseeing' type brand.
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It seemed to me, and this is just by general feel of number of vehicles on the road, that The Original Tour was up there as 1st or 2nd in the London tour market. Now it feels like they are 3rd or 4th
The TootBus name might be relatable to visitors from France but to everyone else I’m not sure it’s a name that suggests it’s the ‘main’ operator of tours
The TootBus name might be relatable to visitors from France but to everyone else I’m not sure it’s a name that suggests it’s the ‘main’ operator of tours
pompey_monkey
New Member
'Toot' is a street name for cocaine, I presume nobody told the management in Paris when they came up with it...
F Great Eastern
Established Member
Toot is a really stupid name, I remember being in London last week and thinking what on earth does it stand for? I assumed it was something French related.
YorkRailFan
Established Member
Its mostly partnership liveries staying, like Park & Ride services, WESTBus, York Uni, etc.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
As @YorkRailFan says, there are some local liveries but they are stipulated as
- Part of partnership agreements (e.g. WestBus in WECA, Leicester, Solent)
- For franchising (Bee Network) or others because they are specifically contracted (e.g. various P&R, Flixbus, universities).
It makes sense as West of England and Cornwall had a dizzying number of liveries and brands.
The irony being that in the early 2000s and the "fades" livery, First D&C were renowned for sending buses out in the base livery without the fades.
Goldfish62
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And more recently buses were repainted in the Kernow, Lizard and Coaster liveries then ran in service for a few years until withdrawal with no branding ever being applied.
First Bus continues coach sector growth with acquisition of J&B Travel Limited
First Bus continues coach sector growth with acquisition of J&B Travel Limited | First Bus UK News
FirstGroup, parent company of First Bus, has confirmed the acquisition of Leeds-based coach operator J&B Travel Limited, in a move that further strengthens its position in the UK coach market and signals continued interest in strategic sector growth.
news.firstbus.co.uk
I've calculated the average fleet ages of the various FirstBus subsidiaries, and I thought it might be interesting to share here
all are calculated in years
Heritage routemasters, training vehicles etc are not included in the numbers
The average fleet age overall is 9 years
| Ipswich SPS | 1.3 |
| First Leicester | 2.9 |
| Anderson Travel | 3.6 |
| First York | 4.4 |
| Aircoach | 4.5 |
| Somerset Passenger Solutions | 4.9 |
| First Solent | 5.8 |
| J&B Travel | 6.3 |
| First Manchester | 6.7 |
| Firstbus London | 7.1 |
| First Buses of Somerset | 7.8 |
| First Aberdeen | 8.2 |
| First Beeline | 8.3 |
| First Kernow | 8.7 |
| First Greater Glasgow | 8.7 |
| Matthews | 8.9 |
| First West of England | 9.0 |
| First Potteries | 9.1 |
| First Essex Buses | 9.7 |
| First Eastern Counties | 10.1 |
| First West Yorkshire | 10.1 |
| Lakeside Coaches | 11.3 |
| First Cymru | 11.5 |
| Ensignbus | 11.5 |
| First Midland Red | 12.1 |
| Bath Bus Company | 12.1 |
| York Pullman | 12.4 |
| First South Yorkshire | 12.5 |
| First Wessex | 13.2 |
| Tetleys Motor Services | 14.5 |
| Toot Bus | 15.0 |
all are calculated in years
Heritage routemasters, training vehicles etc are not included in the numbers
The average fleet age overall is 9 years
stevieinselby
Established Member
One aspect that may be slightly misleading there is that York Pullman's fleet is heavily weighted by the large proportion of it that is used exclusively for school, college and charter work.
If you look at the buses that are regularly used for stage carriage work, all are under 10 years old and the average age is about 5.
Contrast this with an operation like South Yorkshire, where school runs make up only a small proportion of the work, and don't generally have a dedicated fleet but interwork with other routes so buses can run on stage carriage services for most of the day but then take an hour out in the morning and afternoon to ferry kids around.
There may be other divisions that have a similar setup, I'm not saying Pullman is unique within First for being like that, but it is definitely different from the norm.
If you look at the buses that are regularly used for stage carriage work, all are under 10 years old and the average age is about 5.
Contrast this with an operation like South Yorkshire, where school runs make up only a small proportion of the work, and don't generally have a dedicated fleet but interwork with other routes so buses can run on stage carriage services for most of the day but then take an hour out in the morning and afternoon to ferry kids around.
There may be other divisions that have a similar setup, I'm not saying Pullman is unique within First for being like that, but it is definitely different from the norm.
stevenedin
Established Member
Really interesting. Thanks for doing that and posting
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
That's an interesting analysis. There are a few surprises - didn't realise that Midland Red had an appreciably newer fleet than Wessex or how the age of the Essex fleet was now relatively low. The one thing it confirmed in my mind is quite how old the Cymru fleet has become - after a slew of new vehicles between 2013 and 2015, it's been very thin pickings and even some of the newer fleet (which were cascades anyway in e200mmc and e400mmc) have been spirited away.
co-tr-paul
Established Member
Bound to be some minor changes next week with the pulling out of Cornwall.
Snow1964
Established Member
Thanks for this analysis.
Not surprised my local one (Bath) is near bottom of the list as still running a number of buses originally used on Olympic shuttles 14 years ago on normal (not school) routes. Although do have some electric buses on order, so average age should go down when they are delivered.
Goldfish62
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Feels about right if you assume the life of a bus is around 15-20 years.
-Colly405-
Member
Wondering on the distinction between Bath Bus Company and Tootbus (both ex-RATP). Aren't the Toot vehicles Bath Bus Co?
Snow1964
Established Member
Toot bus operates in both London and Bath, it is a 100% sightseeing operation with part open top vehicles. The Bath operation (and air decker) that First took over were based in a leased depot at Keynsham.
Bath bus company is the scheduled services in Bath and to north Somerset, west Wiltshire and Bristol. It has a depot on Weston island between river Avon and canal
tbtc
Veteran Member
A really interesting list
Obviously some of the operating areas hide a great local variation (e.g. Leeds vs rest of West Yorkshire), but that's the way that First are set up, same with places that include a lot of school work
Glasgow really doesn't look as bad as the locals believe
If the Cornish operation had closed say fifteen years ago, I might have joked about the danger of their ancient cast offs being dumped on the relatively young urban operations here in South Yorkshire
Instead, Kernow has a lot of relatively young fleet, whilst the glut of 07/08/58 plated stuff is still on daily service round here, so I'd actively welcome any second hand stuff!
That said, maybe we'll see a version of this list in say 2030 and we'll see whether York/ Leicester etc have continued to see regular investment or if they have retained the bulk of the current fleet which is now slowly ageing
Obviously some of the operating areas hide a great local variation (e.g. Leeds vs rest of West Yorkshire), but that's the way that First are set up, same with places that include a lot of school work
Glasgow really doesn't look as bad as the locals believe
If the Cornish operation had closed say fifteen years ago, I might have joked about the danger of their ancient cast offs being dumped on the relatively young urban operations here in South Yorkshire
Instead, Kernow has a lot of relatively young fleet, whilst the glut of 07/08/58 plated stuff is still on daily service round here, so I'd actively welcome any second hand stuff!
That said, maybe we'll see a version of this list in say 2030 and we'll see whether York/ Leicester etc have continued to see regular investment or if they have retained the bulk of the current fleet which is now slowly ageing