First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

Where are the cost efficiencies taking place, because FSE dont have any unless the border being sold can be classed as cost efficiency? I doubt Andrew Javis will expect any In Glasgow until he can have a proper look at the books.

We have Stoke on Trent, but does Bristol or Yorkshire have any planned? Manchester has some but that because of other factors.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Posted on the WMBus Forum, it has been suggetsed that Potteries Pvr will drop from 120 currently to 105 after 23rd April. Darts 42892-4 are set to transfer back to Worcester at the same time

I don't know why First just don't sell out & let someone else have a go.

D&G's Pvr will no doubt increase by around 15 vehicles from the same date....

Summary details have been put on the First Potteries website today. Sorry, I don't seem able to capture the text and paste it.

Many routes see a cutback from 20 minute to 30 minute frequencies, albeit some combine to give 15 minute headways closer in to the centre. Some bits of routes cut out.

 

[Robertj21a]

We’re making several changes to our network from 23 April 2017. Here are the details to help you plan. Frequencies quoted are Monday to Friday daytimes. Most timetables are changing on Mondays to Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays. We're currently working on our timetables and these will be available as soon as possible.

Route 3 Hanley – Tunstall – Kidsgrove – Alsager – Crewe
A new timetable is introduced, every 10 minutes between Hanley and Kidsgrove, then every 30 minutes to Crewe, every 30 minutes to Talke Pits (becoming a 4A), with additional buses as far as Mitchell Avenue, Butt Lane.

Route 4 Hanley – Newcastle – Chesterton – Audley

Combined with route 4A there will be a bus every 15 minutes between Hanley and Chesterton, continuing to Wood Lane and Audley every 30 minutes.
Daytime buses will still drop off in Stafford Street, Hanley but will no longer pick up
Due to problems with car parking in Queen Street in the evenings, buses arriving after 6.45pm and departing after 7.00pm will terminate at the top of Hougher Wall Road in Audley. Queen Street, Meadowside Ave and Vernon Avenue will not be served each evening.
Route 4A Hanley – Newcastle – Chesterton – Kidsgrove

Combined with route 4 there will be a bus every 15 minutes between Hanley and Chesterton, continuing to Red Street and Kidsgrove every 30 minutes.
Daytime buses will still drop off in Stafford Street, Hanley but will no longer pick up
Route 5 Hanley – Bucknall – Abbey Hulton
Peak hour buses will now run every 15 minutes, with a 10 minute service retained during the middle of the day.

Route 6 Hanley - Fenton - Longton - Nomacot - Meir

Combined with route 6A there will still be a bus every 10 minutes between Hanley, Fenton, Longton and Meir, continuing to Weston Coyney as Service 11A every 20 minutes.
In Longton we are looking at alternative stopping places to the Transport Interchange.
Route 6A Hanley – Fenton – Longton – Meir – Meir Park – Blythe Bridge

Combined with route 6 there will still be a bus every 10 minutes between Hanley, Fenton, Longton and Meir, continuing to Meir Park and Blythe Bridge every 20 minutes.
In Longton we are looking at alternative stopping places to the Transport Interchange.
Route 7 Hanley – Smallthorne – Chell – Packmoor – Kidsgrove
Combined with route 7A there will be a bus every 15 minutes between Hanley and Chell, continuing to Kidsgrove every 30 minutes.

Route 7A Hanley – Smallthorne – Chell – Biddulph

Combined with route 7 there will be a bus every 15 minutes between Hanley and Chell, continuing to Biddulph every 30 minutes.
Buses will retrun from Biddulph toen centre along High Street and St. Johns Road
Routes 8/8A Hanley – Smallthorne – Norton – Ball Green/Endon

Buses will run every 30 minutes between Hanley and Ball Green, with additional buses every hour on route 8A to Endon.
Route 8A will no longer serve Community Drive, but will instead serve the top of Smallthorne.
Route 11 Hanley – Dawlish Drive – Weston Park – Longton – Stoke – Newcastle

Combined with Route 11A there will still be a bus every 10 minutes between Hanley and Adderley Green, continuing to Longton and Newcastle every 20 minutes.
In Longton we are looking at alternative stopping places to the Transport Interchange.
Route 11A Hanley – Dawlish Drive – Parkhall – Coalville
Combined with Route 11 there will still be a bus every 10 minutes between Hanley and Adderley Green, continuing to Parkhall and Coalville every 20 minutes. In Coalville buses will become Route 6 and continue to Meir & Longton.

Route 12 Hanley – Beverley Drive – Adderley Green – Saxonfields - Longton.

In the middle of the day buses will run every 20 minutes between Bentilee and Hanley. The service will extend to Saxonfields and Longton at busy times. Route 13 buses will also serve Saxonfields every hour.
In Longton we are looking at alternative stopping places to the Transport Interchange..
Route 13 Hanley – Dividy Road – Adderley Green – Saxonfields – Longton

Buses will run the length of the route every hour during the day
In Longton we are looking at alternative stopping places to the Transport Interchange.
Routes 21/21A Hanley – Stoke Station – Stoke – Hanford – Trentham

Buses will run every 15 minutes between Hanley and Man-in-Space, route 21 continuing to Pacific Road every 30 minutes.
Trentham Hotel and The Lea will be served by route 21A every 30 minutes. Trentham retail village will no longer be served by route 21A.
Buses in Hanford will now use Church Lane, Queen Mary Road, Kings Road and Wilson Road in each direction between the A34 and New Inn Lane.
Route 22 Newcastle – Trentham – Blurton - Longton
Minor timetable changes are introduced.

Routes 23/23A Hanley – Stoke Station – Stoke – Blurton – Newstead
A new timetable is introduced, still every 15 minutes between Hanley and Newstead

Routes 32/32A Hanley – Werrington – Cheadle – Tean – Uttoxeter

Buses will run every 30 minutes between Hanley and Cheadle, continuing to Uttoxeter every hour
All journeys will operate as route 32 - there will be no departures on route 32A.
Route 37 Meir – Bentilee – Hanley – Newcastle – Lymedale Business Park
The Sunday timetable will change slightly

Route 72 Newcastle – Clayton – Westbury Park

All buses will operate direct to Westbury Park along Clayton Road, returning along Westbury Road, Wye Road and Seabridge Lane. Customers for Wye Road and Seabridge Lane may stay on the bus through Westbury Park.
Some Sunday morning journeys will continue to serve Clayton Village, under contract to Staffordshire County Council
Route 98 Newcastle – Porthill – Burslem – Norton – Ball Green
Buses will run every 30 minutes along the length of the route.

Route 99 Newcastle – Porthill – Tunstall – Chell – Chell Heath – Bradeley
Buses will run every 30 minutes between Newcastle and Chell Heath, serving Bradeley at peak times.

Route 101 Hanley – Newcastle – Trentham – Stone – Stafford
There will be minor timetable changes in the mornings.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

We’re making several changes to our network from 23 April 2017. Here are the details to help you plan. Frequencies quoted are Monday to Friday daytimes. Most timetables are changing on Mondays to Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays. We're currently working on our timetables and these will be available as soon as possible.

That's the one, I just can't highlight the text to copy it for some reason.

I like the bit 'we're currently working on our timetables', surely they were registered 56 days prior to 23 April. Then again few of the current (January 2017) timetables actually reflect the registrations with registered journeys not operating (or appearing on public timetables) and non registered journeys which do operate (and appear on public timetables). I think the 37 runs in accordance with its registered particulars, possibly the 100 too.

 

[Volvodart]

Where are the cost efficiencies taking place, because FSE dont have any unless the border being sold can be classed as cost efficiency? I doubt Andrew Javis will expect any In Glasgow until he can have a proper look at the books.

We have Stoke on Trent, but does Bristol or Yorkshire have any planned? Manchester has some but that because of other factors.

I will repeat what I said the last time you said this a few days ago. This is just the START. All companies had to submit cost saving proposals after the poor half year results. That is not to say all proposals will be accepted by head office, but what we know so far would improve the margin by points of a percent.

 

[Robertj21a]

I will repeat what I said the last time you said this a few days ago. This is just the START. All companies had to submit cost saving proposals after the poor half year results. That is not to say all proposals will be accepted by head office, but what we know so far would improve the margin by points of a percent.

If I recall correctly, First also changed their depreciation calculation (from 15 years to 17 years ?) last year for most of their fleet. It's obvious that they still need to find a lot more savings from somewhere, somehow. That in itself may further delay any new order announcement.

 

[Volvodart]

If I recall correctly, First also changed their depreciation calculation (from 15 years to 17 years ?) last year for most of their fleet. It's obvious that they still need to find a lot more savings from somewhere, somehow. That in itself may further delay any new order announcement.

As I said before, they may want to wait for the Bristol Metrobus announcement being made.

 

[smtglasgow]

Sadly, there are always cuts that can be made to meet any target from HQ. I guess there are still a few depots that could be closed up and down the country, but the increased dead mileage must then make other routes which were previously reasonably sound unviable. Be interesting to see if the projected cost savings can be done in a way that doesn’t do overall/long-term harm.

What has been noticeable over the last couple of years has been the relative stability in most opcos. When Fearnley took over there was a wave of network reviews, but aside from the constant flux in the Potteries (how many service changes can a company implement in a year?), most opcos – even the poorest performing ones – have been relatively quiet. The changes that have happened – South Yorkshire’s partnerships – should have fed into the bottom line by now surely? The ‘Simplicity’ changes in Glasgow in 2013 were a triumph of spin – headline frequency enhancements masked a pvr drop and some significant reductions/withdrawals – but perhaps a ‘big bang’ event like this might help an opco like Manchester that seems to really struggling.

 

[Andyh82]

In Leeds, bizarrely the PVR has recently been increased. There were a few services last year that First took on when Tiger pulled out of Leeds, then last month they extended the 12 from Middleton to the White Rose Centre.

 

[DragonEast]

Not just Leeds. Essex and FEC both are adding/extending routes this spring, the Norwich Network is growing and and Suffolk depot are supposed to be taking over the troubled Ipswich P&R, there'll be a lot of confusion if that's pulled; and from their website it looks like the troubled Dorset are pretty active this summer, as Berkshire have been too.

Potteries almost looks like the exception.

So what's going on: just total confusion (not a first for First) and/or something sudden and unexpected out of the blue, a sort of panic response (to what?); or just possibly are they trying to re-orientate their services from the traditional network approach (perhaps failing for everybody) to a segmented approach targeting specific local customer markets which Essex have been doing for a few years with housing developers; or I just wonder (since a major announcement seemed foreshadowed in the third quarter press release, to come before the AGM), could they conceivably be getting ready to pull out of UK Bus altogether? There are no obvious buyers, but someone we haven't heard of: the Asian/Australasian biggies or even (I don't know) South America? Would they get a better price by both cutting the liabilities and grabbing as much as much as they can? The five years, or whatever, of their recovery plan doesn't seem to have given them much of a recovery, so they must be running out of options? Perhaps?

 

[Robertj21a]

In Leeds, bizarrely the PVR has recently been increased. There were a few services last year that First took on when Tiger pulled out of Leeds, then last month they extended the 12 from Middleton to the White Rose Centre.

It can afford to, isn't it the most profitable First Bus operation in England ?

 

[Andyh82]

But it was suggested that all operations have had budget cuts demanded from HQ, which rather than attempting to turn a profit, would in Leeds's case attempt to make more profit.

 

[Robertj21a]

But it was suggested that all operations have had budget cuts demanded from HQ, which rather than attempting to turn a profit, would in Leeds's case attempt to make more profit.

Alternatively, it may be that First have finally decided to sell off one of their bigger operations rather than keep playing around with the relative trivia.

 

[winston270twm]

Alternatively, it may be that First have finally decided to sell off one of their bigger operations rather than keep playing around with the relative trivia.

Selling off one of the bigger profitable First UK Bus ops would damage the overall profitability of the division, plus it wouldn't raise enough to put a worthwhile dent in their debt mountain. They seem intent on trimming back at the poorer performing ops & entering deeper in to the downward sprial, as network coverage shrinks / frequnecies are cut and ultimately day/week/ month passes become less useful to passengers.

Look at Kernow for example, performance has turnaround through expansion and investment. I think they should be looking to take out the competition throught bolt-on acquitions at both their better performing ops & their poorer ones, to squeeze more profits out of all operations through synergies / economies of scale, rather than cutting back.

 

[Robertj21a]

Selling off one of the bigger profitable First UK Bus ops would damage the overall profitability of the division, plus it wouldn't raise enough to put a worthwhile dent in their debt mountain. They seem intent on trimming back at the poorer performing ops & entering deeper in to the downward sprial, as network coverage shrinks / frequnecies are cut and ultimately day/week/ month passes become less useful to passengers.

Look at Kernow for example, performance has turnaround through expansion and investment. I think they should be looking to take out the competition throught bolt-on acquitions at both their better performing ops & their poorer ones, to squeeze more profits out of all operations through synergies / economies of scale, rather than cutting back.

Agreed, but some of their bigger operations aren't [at all/sufficiently] profitable!

 

[winston270twm]

Agreed, but some of their bigger operations aren't [at all/sufficiently] profitable!

Granted, but you wouldn't receive top prices for selling those larger / poorer performing ops either.

The only real asset of any size worth sacrificing would be Greyhound, this would put a big dent in group debt.

Maybe First Group should consider ditching UK Rail Franchises with their expensive bid costs as per NX, and look at lower risk capital light German Rail contracts & bidding for other contracts globally to replace the revenue / profit lost in the UK Rail Division.

 

[Robertj21a]

Granted, but you wouldn't receive top prices for selling those larger / poorer performing ops either.

The only real asset of any size worth sacrificing would be Greyhound, this would put a big dent in group debt.

Maybe First Group should consider ditching UK Rail Franchises with their expensive bid costs as per NX, and look at lower risk capital light German Rail contracts & bidding for other contracts globally to replace the revenue / profit lost in the UK Rail Division.

You would still get rid of borderline, or loss-making, operations which have little chance of returning them to profit. You could free up some vehicles to improve your age profile and you should improve your financial outgoings - rents, insurances, salaries, pension contributions etc etc.

 

[winston270twm]

You would still get rid of borderline, or loss-making, operations which have little chance of returning them to profit. You could free up some vehicles to improve your age profile and you should improve your financial outgoings - rents, insurances, salaries, pension contributions etc etc.

What big ops / poorer performing ops would you dispose of from First UK Bus?

 

[Robertj21a]

What big ops / poorer performing ops would you dispose of from First UK Bus?

Any that are causing problems with no obvious solutions. Perhaps South Yorkshire, or Manchester ?. It may not be ideal but it depends on how determined they are - the years are ticking by.

 

[daodao]

Any that are causing problems with no obvious solutions. Perhaps South Yorkshire, or Manchester ?. It may not be ideal but it depends on how determined they are - the years are ticking by.

From what I can see, First Bus are going down the tube. They have disposed of operations all over the place (e.g. Chester, Plymouth) and are running down others (e.g. Stoke). Arriva also appear to be cutting back services (e.g. in Cheshire, Burton).

By contrast, Stagecoach appear to be expanding. I noticed 2 of the 3 buses in Mold bus station at 1715 yesterday were their vehicles, including a service to Ruthin, in what was formerly Crosville/Arriva territory. I also note that they are now running most of the services in North and West Devon, formerly Western National/First territory.

 

[Volvodart]

Stagecoach have been making a lot of cuts in Fife and Bluebird.

 

[Mr Manager]

Focus Transport has this morning placed a list of cuts within Greater Manchester. Looks like quite savage also.

 

[overthewater]

Stagecoach have been making a lot of cuts in Fife and Bluebird.

And Ayrshire is just about to get some aswell in June. Mind you its also highly possible services in Northern Lincolnshire are about to get the same treatment aswell.

Truly isn't all sunshine and roses.

 

[winston270twm]

Any that are causing problems with no obvious solutions. Perhaps South Yorkshire, or Manchester ?. It may not be ideal but it depends on how determined they are - the years are ticking by.

Poor performance at FSY is understandable, as they have been locked in battle with Stagecoach Yorkshire for sometime who have now built up a much larger presence with Sheffield. Manchester is the one that puzzle's me, particularly as Stagecoach makes healthy profits from the south what are First doing wrong?

If FSY & FM were ever put on the market I assume these would easily attract buyers due to their size, however Stagecoach would be unable to bid for them due to competition concerns

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

From what I can see, First Bus are going down the tube. They have disposed of operations all over the place (e.g. Chester, Plymouth) and are running down others (e.g. Stoke). Arriva also appear to be cutting back services (e.g. in Cheshire, Burton).

By contrast, Stagecoach appear to be expanding. I noticed 2 of the 3 buses in Mold bus station at 1715 yesterday were their vehicles, including a service to Ruthin, in what was formerly Crosville/Arriva territory. I also note that they are now running most of the services in North and West Devon, formerly Western National/First territory.

There are lots of businesses that are cutting overhead. This isn't news and whilst First are getting attention, all the major groups are doing it in various places. Look at Go Ahead in East Anglia or how their Wiltshire ops have contracted over time. Stagecoach wielding the axe in Fife and now in Somerset and Devon. Arriva in the Midlands not just Burton. It's a tough industry at the moment - just got to see now many firms have gone to the wall.

Of the ones you mention, the Ruthin service was part of GHA, taken over on an emergency tender IIRC. The North Devon services have recently seen cuts from Stagecoach on the main corridor. Plymouth was a pup from the moment Moir authorised the ill fated incursion against PCB. However, look at the rest of First in the West and it's one more of restoration:

Hastened the demise of Western Greyhound
Finally saw Webberbus go pop
Have re-established operations in North Cornwall winning work from Stagecoach and a bolt on acquisition
Currently seeing off Crosville on commercial routes in Weston super Mare
Have forced Rotala to massively reduce their presence in Bristol and Bath
Taken over the remaining Stagecoach Somerset service to Chard

However, fair to say that they've some pretty difficult challenges in their Northern ops. A ONS study highlighted that of the 10 most deprived areas in the UK, 3 (Rochdale, Oldham and Salford) were First Manchester centres. If the towns are on their a*se, it won't be great for bus travel.

 

[KendalKing]

Stagecoach have been making a lot of cuts in Fife and Bluebird.

They have also been making cuts in Lancashire & Greater Manchester.

 

[winston270twm]

Have forced Rotala to massively reduce their presence in Bristol and Bath

However, fair to say that they've some pretty difficult challenges in their Northern ops. A ONS study highlighted that of the 10 most deprived areas in the UK, 3 (Rochdale, Oldham and Salford) were First Manchester centres. If the towns are on their a*se, it won't be great for bus travel.

Whilst Rotala Bristol presence has been significantly reduced, Rotala presence in Bath has actually increased through a few tender wins & their commercial offerings. Whilst the 14 is being withdrawn, it was an additional service to their previous offerings.

People in deprived areas still need to travel for various reasons and you would expect them to use the cheapest mode of transport possible, which should be travelling by bus. With more people in those deprived areas not being in the position to run a car, I would have expected demand for the bus to still be pretty high

 

[KendalKing]

People in deprived areas still need to travel for various reasons and you would expect them to use the cheapest mode of transport possible, which should be travelling by bus. With more people in those deprived areas not being in the position to run a car, I would have expected demand for the bus to still be pretty high

Where I lived the train is by far a lot cheaper then the bus. A return into town on the Bus cost £4.90, whereas a return on the train cost £2.05

 

[Blackpudding]

Whilst Rotala Bristol presence has been significantly reduced, Rotala presence in Bath has actually increased through a few tender wins & their commercial offerings. Whilst the 14 is being withdrawn, it was an additional service to their previous offerings.

People in deprived areas still need to travel for various reasons and you would expect them to use the cheapest mode of transport possible, which should be travelling by bus. With more people in those deprived areas not being in the position to run a car, I would have expected demand for the bus to still be pretty high

Or not travel at all. Places like Oldham and Bury have the Metrolink to contend with it you're travelling to Manchester, which many people do, and Rochdale has the train for a similar journey and the Metrolink for journeys to Oldham. Otherwise the towns are pretty much self sufficient unless you need to travel for work and then you own a car irrespective of the ONS study. Stagecoach have the Metrolink to contend with as well and it is no coincidence that the routes that compete have seen large cuts. I would also suggest North and South of Manchester have very different travel patterns.

 

[Goldfish62]

Focus Transport has this morning placed a list of cuts within Greater Manchester. Looks like quite savage also.

They are, but the Stagecoach cuts are just as significant.