TheGrandWazoo
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Nearly but remember that Lowland also had Dunbar, latterly Haddington after the Glass purchase.
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First Group: General Discussion
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Nearly but remember that Lowland also had Dunbar, latterly Haddington after the Glass purchase.
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TheGrandWazoo
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No doubting the railway has adversely affected the prime Borders route and it perhaps makes more sense for one business to extract some economies of scale. Sad that we've seen the end of an era but as you say, not a great surprise in many respects. Been a long time coming from the appearance of Buskers and Munros, cashing in on depot sites and retrenchment etc.
Certainly a long way from the days of traveling on very smart green and white Seddons!
FSW Official
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He's wrong in part for sure!
Dunbar was included in Lowland's operating area to make the company more profitable - it would have struggled with just the Borders depots.
The depots taken over by Lowland on its formation were:
Berwick
Dunbar
Galashiels
Hawick
Jedburgh (outstation)
Kelso
North Berwick (outstation)
Peebles
Galashiels and North Berwick are still operational today, Galashiels with First (until its transfer to West Coast Motors) and North Berwick with East Coast Buses. The Hawick and Jedburgh buildings are still extant, but are not operational. The Berwick depot site lies buried under the town's library, Dunbar's one under a supermarket, and Kelso and Peebles under housing.
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TheGrandWazoo
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overthewater
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TheGrandWazoo
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I didn't know if Jedburgh was still standing. Been a while since I've been there (Munros were still going).
I loved Kelso depot and bus station. A real bygone era when you visited it.
Shows how much was cashed in by First (though you'll confirm - was Dunbar when it was in Reiver ownership?)
THarris123
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For once he wasn't first with the news!:razz:
If that's referring to me, then I hardly ever come up with the news first.
THarris123
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Can you maybe expand as to why I'm wrong in part for sure? I've never considered the two words "sure" and "First" together in the same sentence before, so it'll be a first if any plans are in concrete.
Dunbar went when under Reiver ownership - soon after Ian Glass was acquired, with its allocation moved to Haddington. A more accuerate term would be "mothballed" as it was still used for overnight parking and for servicing up until 1993 when the depot premises were finally closed.
Berwick closed under GRT ownership, various sites around the town then acted as an outstations until it finally closed in 2003.
Hawick, Jedburgh, Kelso and Peebles all closed under First. Jedburgh actually gained its own depot code (J) towards the end of its operational life and closed in 2000 after First lost the contract for the A68 corridor routes to Munro's.
Hawick and Peebles both closed in 2002, and Kelso in 2003. I remember only the south platform was in use at Kelso on a Sunday, the north one being used for parking.
Just over a week or so before Kelso closed, one of Galashiels' deckers was deroofed while trying to enter it on the 62, which terminated there at the time. Scrapes of blue paint along with a massive hole in the wall above the door both bore witness to this accident until the building was pulled down a few years later.
Strathclyder
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Indeed. The two depots in Glasgow's portfolio most often rumored for closure (Dumbarton & Overtown) both seem to be doing quite well, so the possibility of either of them closing anytime soon is slim.
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overthewater
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The dead millage for the No1 would never be able to justify closing Dumbarton. While Overtown? there is no room at Blantyre. Remember first has just spent alot of time getting Andrew Jarvis over from Stagecoach, I wonder if he will overhaul things. The only depot which might have trouble is Balfron. Most of the work is council expect for three buses worth...
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winston270twm
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Posted on the WMBus Forum, it has been suggetsed that Potteries Pvr will drop from 120 currently to 105 after 23rd April. Darts 42892-4 are set to transfer back to Worcester at the same time
I don't know why First just don't sell out & let someone else have a go.
D&G's Pvr will no doubt increase by around 15 vehicles from the same date....
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I have heard these sort of cost efficiencies are being rolled out across First UK bus. Aberdeen is the only one I know of so far, but how this is to be achieved in terms of service cuts etc. is not yet known. These are subsequent cuts to the ones happening on 2 April 2017 which were supposed to happen last year.
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overthewater
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Not all First companies are getting these cost efficiencies this year some are going the other way.
Potteries depot will still be over 100 buses and that alot compared to the many other depots First have sold off.
Potteries depot will still be over 100 buses and that alot compared to the many other depots First have sold off.
Which ones are not getting cuts or efficiency savings? They all had to present their plans for consideration by head office anyway. It is too early to tell as this is just the start of the process.
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Robertj21a
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I guess D & G may increase by a few but they seem fairly sensible with what they take on. They know, as well as First Potteries, that the Stoke area is, nowadays, proving to be rather poor bus territory.
Robertj21a
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Just because First Potteries has over 100 doesn't mean that it's in any way 'safe' - just look at how their fleet strength and Pvr have reduced over recent years. The future doesn't look very rosy.
Baxenden Bank
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I suspect it's too late for anyone to buy the operation unless they have deep enough pockets to stabilise things, invest in frequency enhancements, invest in network expansion and wait for the business to grow back, which would be long term.
I doubt D & G's PVR will alter at all. First are introducing frequency reductions rather than route reductions so there is no gap for D & G to step into. Slowly kill the business so there is nothing left for a potential competitor to have a go at.
Speculating on the few facts released - reduction of the 3 (and presumably interlinked 4 & 4A) from 20 minutes to 30 minutes will save a minimum of 7 buses (depending upon timings and turn rounds). Withdrawing from Longton Interchange may save a bus or two if timings are reduced.
Baxenden Bank
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I remain convinced that it is good bus territory, but served by poor quality operators. There is latent demand.
There may well be latent demand within the PMT operating area. However, the operators, in my opinion, are not that bad.
One of the major problems in the area is that of poor timekeeping caused by lack of good traffic management by Stoke 0n Trent City Council.
One of the major problems in the area is that of poor timekeeping caused by lack of good traffic management by Stoke 0n Trent City Council.
Baxenden Bank
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We could get into a very detailed, technical debate of interest to hardly anyone else on the forum here.
I agree that the council is pretty hopeless at many things, including investments in ATT (advanced transport telematics) and their subsequent (non) use, their lack of investment in highway capacity in the 1960's and 1970's when other cities were building roads, and their provision of bus lanes only where road space / capacity is already available. First also have to take their share of the blame for lamentable scheduling and, certainly in years past but still the case, of poor control of their operations on a day-to-day basis.
Longton Interchange, for example, has a 90 second traffic light phasing, and requires, generally, 3 phases to enter and 2 to leave. So that's 7.5 minutes compared to probably 2 phases / 3 minutes by avoiding the interchange. Bus priority operated lights? nah.
However, First timetables are rather generous, so even at peak hours you end up sitting roadside going nowhere. Is either attractive to passengers?
Take my local route. Does a car driver set off from home in the morning, then sit at Blythe Bridge Station (3/4 mile later, 5 minutes timetabled) and wait for time, then sit at Meir Park Tesco (1 further mile, 5 minutes timetabled) and wait for time, then divert all round Meir Heath (10 minutes running time instead of 2 direct to Meir), then wait for time at Longton Interchange (1.75 miles further, 14 minutes running/waiting time), then having waited/wasted all that time, get stuck in traffic on Victoria Road, thus arriving late into Hanley. Outside the new sparkly bus station of course so no benefit from those £million invested by the council!
Blythe Bridge to Longton 3.36 miles and 6 minutes by train, 24 minutes by bus, 29 if going beyond Longton.
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Robertj21a
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Not long ago I would have agreed with you, but not so much nowadays. There's only really 2 operators left to serve the whole area - if there was sufficient demand then some small independents would creep back in. They haven't.
The small operators that used to abound in the Potteries have also steadily disappeared, suggesting that they struggled - and I very much doubt that it was the quality of the First operation (!) that caused their demise.
Baxenden Bank
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Barriers to entry are quite high, especially in the current climate. A few years ago you would pick up a school or council contract, perhaps at a keen price, then build up from there. School contracts 'require' non-compliant buses (because they are cheaper) and council contracts don't exist anymore around here. D & G mopped them all up, even pushing First off a recently tendered route (the 23 extensions).
Alton Towers strikes me as an opportunity for someone who actually wants the business rather than someone who just pays lip service to it. Alton Towers Transport are expanding their 'workers only ' services this year and previously dipped into the commercial / contract market for a while.
Scragg's are still going with their obscure 'when we feel like it' timetables.
I am very grateful to all of you above, for your discussion about Potteries, but I am wondering IF after the new cut-backs -
- does anyone think that what will be left will be an efficient, profitable network, that First will be happy to keep ?
- will it have the foundation for growth of passenger numbers ?
Why I'm concerned, is I live on a (small) First patch, where there is a RUMOUR that the same "medicine" is POSSIBLY going to be prescribed by head office.
I'm afraid of crude "Beeching" style cuts, whereas I think my local First operation has enough economy of scale/size to do better than that ! -
- and, as mentioned in the posts above, my local small independent operators did not step-forward with replacement services at the last round of cuts.
With the problem of worsening congestion, and the "Buses Bill" looking to be next-to-useless, I could do with some positive news !
- does anyone think that what will be left will be an efficient, profitable network, that First will be happy to keep ?
- will it have the foundation for growth of passenger numbers ?
Why I'm concerned, is I live on a (small) First patch, where there is a RUMOUR that the same "medicine" is POSSIBLY going to be prescribed by head office.
I'm afraid of crude "Beeching" style cuts, whereas I think my local First operation has enough economy of scale/size to do better than that ! -
- and, as mentioned in the posts above, my local small independent operators did not step-forward with replacement services at the last round of cuts.
With the problem of worsening congestion, and the "Buses Bill" looking to be next-to-useless, I could do with some positive news !
Robertj21a
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Sorry to say, but in my view First Potteries will struggle to survive. It probably has a fair chance simply because there are/will be no other operators keen to take on the area - Stagecoach isn't going to rush in and show everybody how it should be done !. Also, First aren't going to make a load of money by selling it off to keen bidders - but I'm not sure if they own the depot.
Some parts of First Bus in the UK are certainly making a reasonable profit (Glasgow, Aberdeen, West Yorkshire, Leicester) and Potteries isn't losing as much as it was, so there is hope.
Any clue where your own First patch is ?
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I'm very much betwixt and between on this and, I confess, Potteries isn't one of those places I know particularly well. I can't comment on service quality etc.
On one hand, it feels like the bad old days of Moir and cutting back and back especially with the Potteries business having contracted so much even in the last few years. As with other areas, you wonder just how much damage done from 2001-2011 is still being felt now?
On the other, you've got an experienced guy in Nigel Eggleton - no slash and burn merchant. They've cut back the fixed overheads - they've only one garage so what else is there to cut other than services. However, it is evident that the Potteries is one of those places that aren't exactly thriving in terms of economic activity; in that respect, it's like Rotherham or Oldham - places in the UK rust belt that used to be prime bus territory but are not so now. Also, you've got Stagecoach cutting back in places like Devon, Thamesdown faring so badly they've had to sell out. It's a tough world out there with the cuts wrought on local authorities by this iniquitous government.
I guess that in other areas, the action plan can involve growth on one hand, and cutting overheads (e.g. closing expensive depots like Bury and Rotherham). Perhaps neither of those are options in Stoke....