First Group: General Discussion

[Bungle965]

I'm very much betwixt and between on this and, I confess, Potteries isn't one of those places I know particularly well. I can't comment on service quality etc.

On one hand, it feels like the bad old days of Moir and cutting back and back especially with the Potteries business having contracted so much even in the last few years. As with other areas, you wonder just how much damage done from 2001-2011 is still being felt now?

On the other, you've got an experienced guy in Nigel Eggleton - no slash and burn merchant. They've cut back the fixed overheads - they've only one garage so what else is there to cut other than services. However, it is evident that the Potteries is one of those places that aren't exactly thriving in terms of economic activity; in that respect, it's like Rotherham or Oldham - places in the UK rust belt that used to be prime bus territory but are not so now. Also, you've got Stagecoach cutting back in places like Devon, Thamesdown faring so badly they've had to sell out. It's a tough world out there with the cuts wrought on local authorities by this iniquitous government.

I guess that in other areas, the action plan can involve growth on one hand, and cutting overheads (e.g. closing expensive depots like Bury and Rotherham). Perhaps neither of those are options in Stoke....

Interesting that you should say that Bury is a expensive depot, I would have thought that the Rusholme would have been more expensive but then again First are engaged in a war with Stagecoach that they seem to be determined to win.
Sam

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm very much betwixt and between on this and, I confess, Potteries isn't one of those places I know particularly well. I can't comment on service quality etc.

On one hand, it feels like the bad old days of Moir and cutting back and back especially with the Potteries business having contracted so much even in the last few years. As with other areas, you wonder just how much damage done from 2001-2011 is still being felt now?

On the other, you've got an experienced guy in Nigel Eggleton - no slash and burn merchant. They've cut back the fixed overheads - they've only one garage so what else is there to cut other than services. However, it is evident that the Potteries is one of those places that aren't exactly thriving in terms of economic activity; in that respect, it's like Rotherham or Oldham - places in the UK rust belt that used to be prime bus territory but are not so now. Also, you've got Stagecoach cutting back in places like Devon, Thamesdown faring so badly they've had to sell out. It's a tough world out there with the cuts wrought on local authorities by this iniquitous government.

I guess that in other areas, the action plan can involve growth on one hand, and cutting overheads (e.g. closing expensive depots like Bury and Rotherham). Perhaps neither of those are options in Stoke....

There have been a few comments around suggesting that First HQ has issued a directive for specific savings to be achieved - not sure if it's blanket (as in Blockhead days) or more targeted to ops like Potteries.

 

[Volvodart]

There have been a few comments around suggesting that First HQ has issued a directive for specific savings to be achieved - not sure if it's blanket (as in Blockhead days) or more targeted to ops like Potteries.

We should find out in the next few weeks. It may not be PVR cuts everywhere.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Interesting that you should say that Bury is a expensive depot, I would have thought that the Rusholme would have been more expensive but then again First are engaged in a war with Stagecoach that they seem to be determined to win.
Sam

Fixed costs! Apologies for the fag packet but here goes...

Rusholme is c.15k ft2 so rates, building insurance, utilities might be £3/ft2 so £45k p.a

Bury is c.84k ft2 so do the same and it's £252k p.a.

Have excluded leases as I don't know if Bury is leased or owned but gives an idea of the cost issue!

 

[DragonEast]

Aha, that explains it. The local lot have been adding buses like confetti (and increasing congestion and unreliability). That's what you do to prepare just before a cull, isn't it? A pity though they couldn't turn their attention to running the buses rather than playing games. But some things will never change.

 

[tbtc]

I’ll first of all admit to having no local knowledge/ insight into the Potteries. I was there earlier this month (when the vandalised Paul Nuttal banners were coming down…), but don’t claim to know the area particularly.

It feels fairly “northern”, in terms of grand civic buildings and Pound Bakeries… Hanley was reminiscent of Bradford/ Derby/ Sunderland (the shiny modern indoor shopping centre gives you the impression that everything is prosperous/ busy, until you step outside and deal with the Closing Down Sales and remainder shops of the “left behind” retailers).

Bradford/ Derby/ Sunderland etc are suffering from the same economic woes, but at least seem to remain fairly fertile bus territory for First/ Arriva/ Stagecoach.

I guess that a difference in the Potteries is the multi-centred geography?

Most “provincial” operations are fairly straightforward. Outside of Greater Manchester/ Greater Birmingham/ Greater Glasgow, there aren’t a lot of busy services that don’t directly serve the one obvious town/city centre.

Radial routes are on the wane, operators stick to the “obvious” services from the suburbs to the town/ city centre. There’ll always be demand to get into town, from workers or shoppers. Enough people travelling in the same direction to make a service wash its face.

How does it work in the Potteries though? There may be enough commuters and shoppers in a particular suburb but if some of them want to go to Hanley but others want to go to Newcastle then how do you make a bus service viable?

Is there also an issue with so many people living relatively close to one of the three main shopping areas (partly due to the high density housing in some areas and the fact that there is more than one “centre”), which makes a bus a bit awkward or expensive (you can get people in some towns/cities to wait ten minutes to pay two quid to take a journey of two/three miles, but they won’t wait that long to take a bus half a mile, or will begrudge paying a quid for a journey of half a mile – since the bus industry doesn’t do proportionately cheap fares for short distance journeys)? Again though, I say this without specific local knowledge – I just know that there are areas of Rotherham etc where people in the “inner suburbs” aren’t prepared to wait for/ pay for the bus.

Plus I suppose there’s the issue that Sheffield has, where the proximity to the Peak District means that there aren’t large populations to the east of the Potteries.

Throw in some rail competition (Stoke to Crewe was presumably a better market for buses when there was only an hourly Central Trains/ EMT 153/156 but now there’s an hourly LM 350 along with the Sprinter from Derby, the train may look more attractive – double the previous frequency and significantly more seats)?

One thing in favour of good bus operation in the Potteries is that I’m not aware of any large “out of town” retail developments – e.g. the “Intu” place at Hanley is in the city centre – rather than places like Rotherham which have struggled with the majority of the town centre shops relocating to Meadowhall/ Parkgate. So the long established bus service into the town/city centre hasn't had to be altered to deal with a massive Out Of Town development.

Shame that the old X18/ X23 to Sheffield no longer runs! Surprised that the hourly Shrewsbury service still does though.

 

[the101]

Stoke unfortunately is the sterotypical run-down dump. Its economy has suffered chronically over the past 20 years, and it has also suffered greatly from a level of local authority incompetence that is staggering even by such standards.

That includes no efforts at all to mitigate congestion, roadworks that are badly planned and as a matter of course go wildly over-schedule, causing huge delays to buses in the process, and a woeful rate of concessionary reimbursement to operators for carrying passholders. It's no wonder that First makes next to nothing in Stoke, given that a high proportion of passengers use concessionary passes and it receives a pittance for carrying them.

First is also to blame in many ways for the current predicament the Potteries' bus network finds itself in. There have been numerous major network recasts and a huge number of further alterations over the past 15 years. The 'coloured front' launch in 2014 was particularly disastrous that involved staff being spat at by irate customers as a result of a failure on First's part to manage the process correctly and the debacle cost one of the local managers his job.

Service standards from First are still below par and reliability is poor. The council must shoulder a fair chunk of blame for the latter, but First does not help itself, and driver discipline remains an issue. Some, unfortunately, continue to see fit to do as they please, and the fact that this has been the case for a number of years suggests that junior management is not in control of the situation.

Presentation of some of the fleet also leaves a great deal to be desired and it does not create a particularly professional image.

D&G at least presents its fleet rather better, but it is responsible for a great deal of damage too. In particular, its habit of registering in front of First, but only operating a daytime service, has had the effect of First withdrawing altogether (including early morning and early evening journeys) in at least one case. Who benefits from that? D&G's driver problems are also significant and it seems that anyone with a PCV licence is guaranteed a job there, regardless of their standard of turnout or ability to drive a bus remotely competently. D&G is also as guilty as First of constant tinkering and its fare structure is overly-complicated.

In short, the Potteries' bus network is in a decline that, if it continues in its current vein, is likely to be near-terminal.

 

[Robertj21a]

Stoke unfortunately is the sterotypical run-down dump. Its economy has suffered chronically over the past 20 years, and it has also suffered greatly from a level of local authority incompetence that is staggering even by such standards.

That includes no efforts at all to mitigate congestion, roadworks that are badly planned and as a matter of course go wildly over-schedule, causing huge delays to buses in the process, and a woeful rate of concessionary reimbursement to operators for carrying passholders. It's no wonder that First makes next to nothing in Stoke, given that a high proportion of passengers use concessionary passes and it receives a pittance for carrying them.

First is also to blame in many ways for the current predicament the Potteries' bus network finds itself in. There have been numerous major network recasts and a huge number of further alterations over the past 15 years. The 'coloured front' launch in 2014 was particularly disastrous that involved staff being spat at by irate customers as a result of a failure on First's part to manage the process correctly and the debacle cost one of the local managers his job.

Service standards from First are still below par and reliability is poor. The council must shoulder a fair chunk of blame for the latter, but First does not help itself, and driver discipline remains an issue. Some, unfortunately, continue to see fit to do as they please, and the fact that this has been the case for a number of years suggests that junior management is not in control of the situation.

Presentation of some of the fleet also leaves a great deal to be desired and it does not create a particularly professional image.

D&G at least presents its fleet rather better, but it is responsible for a great deal of damage too. In particular, its habit of registering in front of First, but only operating a daytime service, has had the effect of First withdrawing altogether (including early morning and early evening journeys) in at least one case. Who benefits from that? D&G's driver problems are also significant and it seems that anyone with a PCV licence is guaranteed a job there, regardless of their standard of turnout or ability to drive a bus remotely competently. D&G is also as guilty as First of constant tinkering and its fare structure is overly-complicated.

In short, the Potteries' bus network is in a decline that, if it continues in its current vein, is likely to be near-terminal.

Unfortunately, a rather true summary.

I'd struggle to come up with any possible buyer for First Potteries. It would have to be very cheap, so as to attract the likes of Rotala. I'm not sure the likes of D&G/Centrebus/High Peak would find it attractive to take on more than the odd extra route in that area and Arriva gave up not long ago. Stagecoach would avoid it with a very large barge pole and there's no obvious benefit for GoAhead or NatExp.

 

[tbtc]

Stoke unfortunately is the sterotypical run-down dump. Its economy has suffered chronically over the past 20 years, and it has also suffered greatly from a level of local authority incompetence that is staggering even by such standards.

That includes no efforts at all to mitigate congestion, roadworks that are badly planned and as a matter of course go wildly over-schedule, causing huge delays to buses in the process, and a woeful rate of concessionary reimbursement to operators for carrying passholders. It's no wonder that First makes next to nothing in Stoke, given that a high proportion of passengers use concessionary passes and it receives a pittance for carrying them.

First is also to blame in many ways for the current predicament the Potteries' bus network finds itself in. There have been numerous major network recasts and a huge number of further alterations over the past 15 years. The 'coloured front' launch in 2014 was particularly disastrous that involved staff being spat at by irate customers as a result of a failure on First's part to manage the process correctly and the debacle cost one of the local managers his job.

Service standards from First are still below par and reliability is poor. The council must shoulder a fair chunk of blame for the latter, but First does not help itself, and driver discipline remains an issue. Some, unfortunately, continue to see fit to do as they please, and the fact that this has been the case for a number of years suggests that junior management is not in control of the situation.

Presentation of some of the fleet also leaves a great deal to be desired and it does not create a particularly professional image.

D&G at least presents its fleet rather better, but it is responsible for a great deal of damage too. In particular, its habit of registering in front of First, but only operating a daytime service, has had the effect of First withdrawing altogether (including early morning and early evening journeys) in at least one case. Who benefits from that? D&G's driver problems are also significant and it seems that anyone with a PCV licence is guaranteed a job there, regardless of their standard of turnout or ability to drive a bus remotely competently. D&G is also as guilty as First of constant tinkering and its fare structure is overly-complicated.

In short, the Potteries' bus network is in a decline that, if it continues in its current vein, is likely to be near-terminal.

I'm not saying that you are wrong (you make a number of good points), but a lot of these issues (depressed local economy, issues with short termist cash strapped local authorities, neverending roadworks, concessionary reimbursement meaning buses dominated by pensioners rather than lucrative payers, regular timetable changes, several "network rebrandings") apply to lots of other provincial areas - not exclusive ones where to First Group but you could certainly tick off some of those criteria for Rotherham/ Doncaster/ Halifax/ Huddersfield/ Oldham/ Rochdale/ Bury/ Bolton - but none of these seem to have quite the same "death of a thousand cuts" that the Potteries have. There have been cuts on those towns, but not to the same degree that the Stoke area seems to have had?

Maybe it's because they are part of bigger operations, so it's easier to hide them - the old PMT area looks higher profile because it's not part of a bigger network?

Similarly, you could make a case for Middlesbrough or Gateshead or Blackburn or Wakefield suffering from similar problems, but Stagecoach/ Go-Ahead/ Transdev/ Arriva seem to be coping with the roadworks/ twirlies/ congestion without quite the same cuts.

Is it because the Potteries are at least lucrative looking enough to warrant the competition (whereas First don't have to deal with so much attrition in places like Rotherham because nobody would bother trying to take a slice of such a thin pie)?

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm not saying that you are wrong (you make a number of good points), but a lot of these issues (depressed local economy, issues with short termist cash strapped local authorities, neverending roadworks, concessionary reimbursement meaning buses dominated by pensioners rather than lucrative payers, regular timetable changes, several "network rebrandings") apply to lots of other provincial areas - not exclusive ones where to First Group but you could certainly tick off some of those criteria for Rotherham/ Doncaster/ Halifax/ Huddersfield/ Oldham/ Rochdale/ Bury/ Bolton - but none of these seem to have quite the same "death of a thousand cuts" that the Potteries have. There have been cuts on those towns, but not to the same degree that the Stoke area seems to have had?

Maybe it's because they are part of bigger operations, so it's easier to hide them - the old PMT area looks higher profile because it's not part of a bigger network?

Similarly, you could make a case for Middlesbrough or Gateshead or Blackburn or Wakefield suffering from similar problems, but Stagecoach/ Go-Ahead/ Transdev/ Arriva seem to be coping with the roadworks/ twirlies/ congestion without quite the same cuts.

Is it because the Potteries are at least lucrative looking enough to warrant the competition (whereas First don't have to deal with so much attrition in places like Rotherham because nobody would bother trying to take a slice of such a thin pie)?

I think First in the Potteries area as a whole has been a disgrace for so very long (vehicle condition, poor staff, couldn't care less attitudes) that the name is badly tainted. The locals don't forgive or forget easily.
It also suffers from having multiple centres, so many people can just walk/cycle rather than bother with the bus.
It's a surprisingly helpless place nowadays.

 

[skyhigh]

Does anyone have any idea when the latest bus orders should be announced? Thanks

 

[Andyh82]

Similarly, you could make a case for Middlesbrough or Gateshead or Blackburn or Wakefield suffering from similar problems, but Stagecoach/ Go-Ahead/ Transdev/ Arriva seem to be coping with the roadworks/ twirlies/ congestion without quite the same cuts.

Is it because the Potteries are at least lucrative looking enough to warrant the competition (whereas First don't have to deal with so much attrition in places like Rotherham because nobody would bother trying to take a slice of such a thin pie)?

Halifax and Huddersfield are actually quite static, they got rid of the tendered minibus routes years ago which are now run by quite decent independents or Yorkshire Tiger, and besides that the networks are near identical to how they were 5 or 10 years ago or even longer.

I wouldn't use Blackburn as an example, get past the flashy publicity and you realise that their town network has almost entirely been withdrawn, and consists of just two services now with a PVR of just 5 buses. Everything else they operate is an out of town route, the majority of which originated from the old Lancashire United bit rather than the Blackburn Transport bit.

 

[the101]

I think First in the Potteries area as a whole has been a disgrace for so very long (vehicle condition, poor staff, couldn't care less attitudes) that the name is badly tainted. The locals don't forgive or forget easily.
It also suffers from having multiple centres, so many people can just walk/cycle rather than bother with the bus.
It's a surprisingly helpless place nowadays.

You are quite right about the 'junk brand' issue. It seemed that they realised this in 2014 when the Potteries Buses identity was rolled out, with references to First being secondary to the new name and promises of a fleet of colour-coded buses and routes. Needless to say, interest was quickly lost and there a still a fair number of vehicles that carry fuel-stained, scuffed Barbie colours, never mind the Olympia scheme or whatever it was called.

 

[overthewater]

The only other two companies to have "junk brand" problems are BOS which seems to have done a decent job repainting everything, and FSE who are moving to Blue, but are not there yet because there not wasting money on advance repaints, and some of the fleet is just used for Schools.

I never thought the Potteries area was bad area for First, in operations or public attitude.

 

[Robertj21a]

I never thought the Potteries area was bad area for First, in operations or public attitude.

Been poor for ages, 10+ years ? (that's being kind)

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Interesting that Teesside has been mentioned in despatches; it has shared many of the socio economic problems that seem to have afflicted the Potteries. The collapse of traditional industries, population decline, a higher than national average of non-economic people (pensioners, sick, unemployed). When Arriva came about, there were four depots on Teesside, and a fleet of probably about 190. Now there are two depots, and a fleet strength of nearer 120, with a trimming of the PVR at various times to have a much more streamlined network and large scale cuts to supported services.

Again, I stress I don't know the Potteries business as well as others, but it has been apparent that it was one of the worst casualties of First's lack of investment between 2002 and 2012, especially the latter part. Aside from a batch of Omnicities, it has survived on a diet of cast offs and cascades from Manchester and London. It has been mismanaged but there are a raft of other factors at play, whether that be resurgent rail, local authority inertia, and most markedly, these socio economic factors.

I've drawn this parallel before but forgive me if I do it again.

Once upon a time, the best pubs with the biggest trade were in the poorer, working class areas. This was especially so on the big peripheral council estates in many cities. However, the world has changed; those people have much less money than they ever had, fewer are working and there are other extraneous factors. Many of those pubs have now gone, killed off by changes to their environment and their clientele. The same can be said of some "traditional good bus territories".

 

[overthewater]

Interesting that Teesside has been mentioned in despatches; it has shared many of the socio economic problems that seem to have afflicted the Potteries. The collapse of traditional industries, population decline, a higher than national average of non-economic people (pensioners, sick, unemployed). When Arriva came about, there were four depots on Teesside, and a fleet of probably about 190. Now there are two depots, and a fleet strength of nearer 120, with a trimming of the PVR at various times to have a much more streamlined network and large scale cuts to supported services..

Has there been cut in Stagecoach PVR?

 

[THarris123]

Does anyone have any idea when the latest bus orders should be announced? Thanks

Its probably going to be about April time.

We know a few things:-
Yorkshire is definitely due some stuff and it is due a few E400s for Park and Ride purposes
Bristol is due some vehicles - some for Airport and some for other work
Weston Super Mare and Bath have high potential to get a few new vehicles each
Very likely Glasgow will be due something, as well as East England and Cymru
Kernow, Scotland East, BoS all very unlikely to get anything
Hampshire is the only one this year that is very difficult, in my opinion, to predict whether they will get any new stuff. They might get new stuff for Hilsea to replace Streetlies, Southampton to replace B7RLEs or Weymouth for service 1.

All pretty unpredictable this year, but there are good clues to see what areas and regions will or could be getting new vehicles, as well as uncertainties over others.

I expect we'll find out within a months time or so.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Has there been cut in Stagecoach PVR?

It is smaller but I can't dig up the comparable fleet sizes for Transit. However, here's a stat for you. When Stagecoach bought Hartlepool Transport in 1994, it had a bus fleet of 62.

In the intervening years, Tees pulled out of local services and their successor Arriva has been reduced to running in from the North (i.e. Durham, Peterlee, central Co. Durham). Stagecoach now have a monopoly of local services.

Stagecoach Hartlepool has a fleet size of 35.

That tells you a lot of what's happening in these sorts of depressed "rust belt" towns.

 

[Hophead]

Has Stoke ever been good bus operating territory? I was an occasional visitor during the 1980s and have distinct memories of infrequent and mostly empty Leyland Nationals (and later, more frequent and somewhat busier, minibuses).

Rush hour at Hanley Bus Station could hardly have been described as 'bustling'.

 

[WatcherZero]

I was a student there in the early 00's and yes it was bustling with very frequent services, but then it didn't really have a commuter rail network and the main station is away from the town centres. The bus infrastructure certainly received a lot of investment by the council with a lot of modern well tended shelters and good passenger information as well as PID's. The suburbs were also being gentrified though Hanley was declining, Newcastle-under-Lyme town centre got a big refurbishment while I was there.

 

[Goldfish62]

The only other two companies to have "junk brand" problems are BOS which seems to have done a decent job repainting everything, and FSE who are moving to Blue, but are not there yet because there not wasting money on advance repaints, and some of the fleet is just used for Schools.

I never thought the Potteries area was bad area for First, in operations or public attitude.

I would add First Kernow to that list, although with considerable new vehicle investment it's starting to turn the corner.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Any news on vehicle orders for this year?

 

[THarris123]

Any news on vehicle orders for this year?

See my post 5718.

 

[F Great Eastern]

First Aircoach have now confirmed on Facebook they have some new coaches on order.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Its probably going to be about April time.

We know a few things:-
Yorkshire is definitely due some stuff and it is due a few E400s for Park and Ride purposes
Bristol is due some vehicles - some for Airport and some for other work
Weston Super Mare and Bath have high potential to get a few new vehicles each
Very likely Glasgow will be due something, as well as East England and Cymru
Kernow, Scotland East, BoS all very unlikely to get anything
Hampshire is the only one this year that is very difficult, in my opinion, to predict whether they will get any new stuff. They might get new stuff for Hilsea to replace Streetlies, Southampton to replace B7RLEs or Weymouth for service 1.

All pretty unpredictable this year, but there are good clues to see what areas and regions will or could be getting new vehicles, as well as uncertainties over others.

I expect we'll find out within a months time or so.

So all we actually know is that Leeds are getting new fleet for general replacement and P&R, Bristol getting new fleet for the Airport service and Aircoach some new kit in Ireland.

Not much confirmed then....

 

[overthewater]

A few years ago compaines made big deals about fleet orders but now its just feels like there dont want to tell anyone.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A few years ago compaines made big deals about fleet orders but now its just feels like there dont want to tell anyone.

Stagecoach and First still do. Arriva have always been a bit piecemeal and Go Ahead never real have made a big deal.

First's 2015 order was announced in May, and 2016 in April so we can relax and sleep

 

[Robertj21a]

Stagecoach and First still do. Arriva have always been a bit piecemeal and Go Ahead never real have made a big deal.

First's 2015 order was announced in May, and 2016 in April so we can relax and sleep

The last I heard, last week, was that First's order had not yet been finalised.

 

[Volvodart]

The last I heard, last week, was that First's order had not yet been finalised.

It might depend on how many buses are freed up by the cost efficiencies.