First Group: General Discussion

[oldman]

It reads like a public press release, with the 'Alex Carter says:' quotes, talking about 'our employees' and assurances to customers. For a notification to staff, it's poor and lazy.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It reads like a public press release, with the 'Alex Carter says:' quotes, talking about 'our employees' and assurances to customers. For a notification to staff, it's poor and lazy.

I think staff did get personal letters informing them of the news, advising of TUPE consultation etc. Just that the press release has also been posted up.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

First Glasgow are now operating the 64/164 on Sunday's now for SPT after several operators have ran it but have never managed to run it longer than 3 months at a time.

During the week the 64 is ran by the Parkhead depot, but today I've seen one of the new SPT Optare's (53754) on it. Is it a different depot running it on Sunday's?

 

[Strathclyder]

During the week the 64 is ran by the Parkhead depot, but today I've seen one of the new SPT Optare's (53754) on it. Is it a different depot running it on Sunday's?

I think Hamilton is responsible for the Sunday operation of the 64/164, as the 15-plate SPT Solos can usually be found on Hamilton/East Kilbride local workings on weekdays.

 

[Robertj21a]

First Devon:-

http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Bus...s-Stagecoach/story-26891359-detail/story.html

 

[overthewater]

Who is bigger now? First or Arriva?

 

[Volvodart]

Last I saw Arriva was at 5900 and the First website says 6300, but I am unsure how up to date Arriva is with London and other losses and First was before the sale and I am unsure if it includes the recently announced closures which have not happened yet.

 

[overthewater]

If that is the case, that is some fall from grace from 1st to 3rd biggest.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If that is the case, that is some fall from grace from 1st to 3rd biggest.

It doesn't really matter. Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity, as the saying goes!

 

[Surreyman]

From the Scotsman; -

"FirstGroup, the Aberdeen-based transport operator, is stepping up cost-cutting efforts in its UK bus business in a bid to offset the impact of losing a raft of rail contracts.

In a trading update the firm said it was “advancing cost efficiency plans” for the bus operation including “a number of changes to our depot portfolio” as it targets higher profit margins.

It has recently announced plans to close depots in Bracknell and Hereford, merge depots in the Potteries and to sell one in south Devon.

The firm said in the update for its first quarter that like-for-like bus takings had grown by 1.4 per cent. Commercial passenger revenue continued to grow by more than 2 per cent, but this had been offset by a fall in turnover related to passengers entitled to reduced fares.

The group is paid by local authorities – under pressure from squeezed government funding – to subsidise these reductions.

First said its UK rail division had delivered like-for-like passenger revenue growth of 6.3 per cent on a “robust” uptick in passenger numbers.

But it reiterated a warning that earnings from this division would be “substantially lower in the first half and for the current year”.

It has been dealt a blow after failing to win new contracts to keep running services on First ScotRail and First Capital Connect, while also missing out on bids for several new deals.

The group is hoping that earnings from its UK and US bus businesses – the latter including Greyhound and First Student – will help make up for the shortfall.

Passenger numbers on Greyhound services have continued to be affected by lower fuel prices which have seen some customers switch to using cars. Like-for-like revenue decreased by 5.7 per cent in the first quarter and year-on-year growth is expected to remain challenging throughout the first half of the current year.

Chief executive Tim O’Toole said: “We anticipate strong progress for the current year in our non-rail businesses, mainly from the First Student and UK Bus turnarounds, to largely offset the reduced size of our UK Rail franchise portfolio compared with the prior year.”

Analysts at Shore Capital said the statement was in line with their own forecasts.

The broker currently has a “buy” rating on the shares citing factors such as progress on repaying debt.

“With S&P recently upgrading its credit rating outlook and the business on track to achieve its targets, it is in our opinion only a matter of time before the market turns its attention to the repayment of debt and potential transformational impact this could have on cashflow,” said the research note".

I wonder, is the depot closure/merger/sell off complete, or could we see more? - FSE anyone?

 

[Volvodart]

Yet again!!

 

[overthewater]

Its fairs to say I've always expected when it comes to FSE to see something else happening, especial if you look at the accounts, remember the 25% loses?. As I've said else where, FSE is a actually nearly fully DDA, and with the new buses due in this year, will ship off all remaining non floor stock.

What a shocker eh? At least it's got something going for it. It also means the muss depot should be safe for now but it's a game of chess how this will play out, or if LCB will expand etc.........

I can't think of anywhere else where cut backs or closures could take place.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It doesn't really matter. Turnover is vanity, profit is sanity, as the saying goes!

I do like that, never heard it before.

 

[Volvodart]

The MD of First Eastern Counties is leaving soon.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yet again!!

Sorry but can you clarify what you mean? I appreciate I'm probably being a bit blonde!

 

[Volvodart]

Just the number of times on the sale and closure of FSE has been mentioned on here!!

 

[overthewater]

Lets be fair here, FSE was or is, in the same league as all the other depots which are closing down. Yet somehow the management made extremely good points and have managed to get over 50 new buses into the company making it fully DDA, while also closing two depots and taking an axe to over 30 bus duties etc.

I believe the main reason has been a commercial gamble on the part of First, down to the fact of a large number of big new developments in housing/business and leisure within the companies operations patch are on the cards or started construction.

This does not cover a single area, its cover the whole of First Scotland East patch, With Stirling, Falkirk, Whitburn, Winchburgh and parts of East Lothian, all getting alot of money spent on stuff. I really do hope it pays off, but as said Muss is still to close to call, but the rest of the area is theirs for the taken and could result in big profits.

I take it there are no big plans for Bracknell, Hereford or Potteries areas?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Lets be fair here, FSE was or is, in the same league as all the other depots which are closing down. Yet somehow the management made extremely good points and have managed to get over 50 new buses into the company making it fully DDA, while also closing two depots and taking an axe to over 30 bus duties etc.

I believe the main reason has been a commercial gamble on the part of First, down to the fact of a large number of big new developments in housing/business and leisure within the companies operations patch are on the cards or started construction.

This does not cover a single area, its cover the whole of First Scotland East patch, With Stirling, Falkirk, Whitburn, Winchburgh and parts of East Lothian, all getting alot of money spent on stuff. I really do hope it pays off, but as said Muss is still to close to call, but the rest of the area is theirs for the taken and could result in big profits.

I take it there are no big plans for Bracknell, Hereford or Potteries areas?

Let's get this nailed, once and for all.

• Potteries is a relatively compact operating area with two depots. Newcastle under Lyme depot was sold years ago (and indeed was previously scheduled for closure) on a sale and leaseback deal. Closing it and consolidating ops on Adderley Green makes sense financially especially as subsidy cuts, ENCTS renumeration and the general lower economic activity means lower than expected performance. Also, the size of the depot won't absorb all ops so they are going to drop some marginal work which also helps meet DDA requirements
  
• Bracknell - they lost 20% of their PVR with the new council tenders. It just isn't enough to justify the retention of the depot (which is on a site ripe for development). It's just the same as Cowdenbeath except there was sufficient capacity in handily placed depots to absorb services (rather than selling to Reading Buses or just cessation)
  
• Hereford - it's a small depot close to the city centre in a residential area. First is largely confined to a small number of local routes (plus a few recently won tenders) but the country routes are with Yeomans, DRM and Stagecoach so it's difficult to develop that operation.

As for VolvoDart, the frustration is probably along the lines of:


First Edinburgh is also not getting that (Olympia) scheme at the moment. I think we can guess what going to get sold off if we follow the pattens,

and

I have heard talk that the following areas are the most likely area to get sold off are:

* Edinburgh
* York
* Northampton
* Chester

and

good riddence to bad rubbish I say. Defo must be something in the roomers Livi's going plus another FSE Depot.

Those date back to May 2012 - yes, we've had over 3 years of the death of FSE being foretold.

And then there's November 2012....

First in Northampton, First Edinburgh, or London are more likely to be sold off the now.

....and March 2013.....

Don't quote me on this, or take it as gospel, but apparently East Lothian Buses have been recruiting extra drivers recently. This could just be to create a bigger pool of drivers for the 113, but it could also be for future expansion in East Lothian if First decide to pull out of Musselburgh.

There are also very strong hints being dropped that First will quit Livingston. If this happens then the depot will be sold, not closed, and National Express are rumoured to be in the frame as a possible buyer for it.

...and Feb 2014.

confirmed, from a driver mate of mine - Musselburgh depot definitely for sale! Staff however have been told nothing

I think VolvoDart is making the point that we've had over 3 years of FSE (especially the Lothian depots) being 15 seconds from death

 

[Surreyman]

My turn to be confused, not sure what you mean?? the only plans for the above are respectively: -
Bracknell - complete closure, with Reading Buses & Stagecoach registering the 2 main trunk routes, Courtney covering most of the rest via both tenders and commercial, Slough taking the Green Line routes and a new route registered Windsor - Legoland.

Hereford - complete closure, local independents likely to cover most routes.

Potteries - one depot closed, most services transferred to other, implication that overal,l services will be cut/reduced.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

My turn to be confused, not sure what you mean?? the only plans for the above are respectively: -
Bracknell - complete closure, with Reading Buses & Stagecoach registering the 2 main trunk routes, Courtney covering most of the rest via both tenders and commercial, Slough taking the Green Line routes and a new route registered Windsor - Legoland.

Hereford - complete closure, local independents likely to cover most routes.

Potteries - one depot closed, most services transferred to other, implication that overal,l services will be cut/reduced.

I interpreted OTW (though I was equally bemused initially) that it was in relation to the earlier line "I believe the main reason has been a commercial gamble on the part of First, down to the fact of a large number of big new developments in housing/business and leisure within the companies operations patch are on the cards or started construction." - i.e. that because there is a potential in FSE land, they are keeping it but does that mean the areas with depot closures are not due large developments?

I think the thing is that there have been 4 depots closed/divested at the same time. People are looking for common reasons and whilst they are all closing in the name of improving margins, there are different reasons for each.

• Plymouth - a long running basket case with heavy competition
  
• Bracknell - heavy tender losses, competition and a prime site
  
• Newcastle u L - a leased depot and ability to consolidate into a single site
  
• Hereford - small depot in a prime location with minimal opportunity to expand and spread overheads

Bracknell is a boom place (although difficult to serve as per many new towns) whilst the Potteries is economically depressed

 

[overthewater]

TheGrandWazoo is on the money about what I was trying to get across, about the reason I was wondering about large developments in each areas. To be fair if there were plans afoot for a big large developments in Hereford I bet First might have held off a bit longer?

With some of the points, which I fully understand are not really connected to what your trying to get across:

* Northampton, Chester and London were sold off or closed.
* East Lothian Buses did expand with a new route and has improved the 113.
* Musselburgh depot has plans for new housing linked to the old Tesco site next door etc, so the depot has to move at some point in the time, I'm not sure what is going on with it but other locations have been looked at aswell. I bet First well be expecting a nice fat wad of cash for the depot.

http://www.eastlothiancourier.com/n...an-on-old-tesco-site-in-musselburgh-imminent/

Your total right its has been 15 seconds from death since 2011, but to fair back in the day it had alot of non DDA buses, its been infront of the Traffic commissioner too many times, its accounts have been in a complete an utter mess for years, I've even posted them here and no one could put a positive spin on them in either xmas 2013 or 2014. It only managed to make a profit by selling off land in one of the accounts.

IF and its a very BIG IF: We don't know whats around the conner, I dare say we and that does include myself will just have to sit on our hands and shut the hell up until it happens. What ever that might be including moving the depot to a new location. There are still rumors about LCB expanding again but who knows! For all we know

 

[robertclark125]

People mention FSE, and just think of Livingston and Musselburgh. It's easy to forget that it also has depots in Bannockburn (for Stirling area), Larbert (The old Midland Scottish HQ), and Balfron. In fact, Balfron has just recently won an award for best rural depot. Larbert depot has also been successful in expanding tendered schools work in Fife, and Fife route 6 (Steelend - Crombie).

Now, it can be interpreted in a number of ways. Firstly, FSE has went for these contracts, so that the business has a higher value if it comes to a sale.

Secondly, FSE is trying to adopt the same approach that's been done in Cornwall, and that is that local management make the decisions, and they've decided to go after a guaranteed income (School contracts) to boost revenue, and justify further investment in rolling stock.

Thirdly, the fact that the likes of Musselburgh and Livingston, both in SMT territory, are still in FSE control, suggests that either the operations at those depots have had the dead wood removed, or no one expressed an interest in buying them.

Fourthly, perhaps the operations were never at risk, and we've all barked up the wrong tree.

 

[overthewater]

People mention FSE, and just think of Livingston and Musselburgh. It's easy to forget that it also has depots in Bannockburn (for Stirling area), Larbert (The old Midland Scottish HQ), and Balfron. In fact, Balfron has just recently won an award for best rural depot. Larbert depot has also been successful in expanding tendered schools work in Fife, and Fife route 6 (Steelend - Crombie).

Now, it can be interpreted in a number of ways. Firstly, FSE has went for these contracts, so that the business has a higher value if it comes to a sale.

Secondly, FSE is trying to adopt the same approach that's been done in Cornwall, and that is that local management make the decisions, and they've decided to go after a guaranteed income (School contracts) to boost revenue, and justify further investment in rolling stock.

Thirdly, the fact that the likes of , both in SMT territory, are still in FSE control, suggests that either the operations at those depots have had the dead wood removed, or no one expressed an interest in buying them.

Fourthly, perhaps the operations were never at risk, and we've all barked up the wrong tree.

Reason for being listed as "FSE" is because both depots operate a "No change" policy, I believe.

Your also just reminded me in the most recent accounts both Musselburgh and Livingston are now listed on their own accounts with everything else still being shown on Midland bluebird. wonder why?

 

[Surreyman]

Reason for being listed as "FSE" is because both depots operate a "No change" policy, I believe.

Your also just reminded me in the most recent accounts both Musselburgh and Livingston are now listed on their own accounts with everything else still being shown on Midland bluebird. wonder why?

Almost certainly because they are different legal entities, Musselburgh & Livingstone (on the FSE operators licence) so are separate from the other depots which operate on the Midland Bluebird licence.
(No idea why, probably down to history and because nobody can be bothered to register the operations on a single new Ops licence)
Actually on second thoughts, it could be because of employment history, terms & conditions, pensions ( I don't know this for certain but I have come across it in other companies).

 

[robertclark125]

Actually Surreyman, back in 1996 or 1997, SMT comprised the following depots on its licence. Westfield (Edinburgh), Livingston, Dalkeith, Musselburgh, and the outstation at North Berwick, which is now a full depot.

What then happened was, someone at First decided to abolish the SMT licence, and the depots at Westfield and Livingston moved onto the Midland Bluebird licence, whilst Dalkeith and Musselburgh, along with North Berwick, switched over to Lowland.

So, at some point afterwards, this situation has been partly reversed.

 

[CatfordCat]

Bracknell is a boom place (although difficult to serve as per many new towns)

Bracknell is an odd sort of place for bus operations.

The 1960s/70s bits of new town were designed and built with very good bus priority - bus only link roads and so on which are still mostly in use. The routes round the 'southern estates' were commercial, although Courtneys' intervention may have pushed them over the edge.

The 1950s bits to the north of the town centre were designed in an era when the average working person didn't own a car, hence problems with parked cars.

Also, there's still quite a substantial chunk of the population there who moved in as young couples in the 50s and are now senior citizens (see ENCTS reimbursement) and some resdential areas are within walking distance if you're reasonably able bodied - and the relatively high flat fare that First charge in Bracknell does not encourage short journeys.

The 1980s bits further north were not designed with any thought to bus services - mostly cul-de-sac off cul-de-sac sort of style, inside a perimiter road that's not a welcoming place to walk to / wait for a bus.

The demographics are odd as well - very high proportions of both inward and outward commuting.

The outward commuting includes a fairly substantial flow towards London, but not with sufficient mass to make early morning / later evening bus services to connect with a train service (that's prone to delays) viable. Also to Heathrow which is not easy by public transport from Bracknell.

A lot of the inward commuting is to high-tech firms on the business parks, and most of these put on their own shuttle bus / coaches from the station to the front door, hence another lot of passengers lost to local buses.

Then a (broadly) very well off rural hinterland that is not good bus operating territory.

 

[Surreyman]

With all the current focus on Firsts 'scaling back', I can't help being aware of the political dimension.
I don't live a million miles from Bracknell, usually drive round it once a week, since the closure announcement I have googled 'Bracknell bus depot closure' a number of times, yes a brief article in local paper distilled from the press release but absolutely no sign of angry residents up in arms, councillors protesting, outraged local MP making political capital etc etc, pretty much indifference all round!

Can't comment on Hereford or Potteries but I am a regular visitor to Scotland which these days is a very politicised place compared to suburban Berkshire.
First are a perceived as a Scottish company (Well sort of, head office is in Aberdeen). When First lost the Scotrail franchise recently, the media went into overdrive about a 'foreign company' (Abeilo of the Nederlands) "taking over" Scotrail (actually a franchise award).
If First wanted to scale back any operations in Scotland (I have no hard evidence that they are planning to do so by the way) there would be a local media storm, questions asked in Holyrood etc.
First of course have a huge bus operation in Glasgow, and a large one in Aberdeen, so they have a huge vested interest in keeping local politicians 'sweet'.

 

[overthewater]

Actually Surreyman, back in 1996 or 1997, SMT comprised the following depots on its licence. Westfield (Edinburgh), Livingston, Dalkeith, Musselburgh, and the outstation at North Berwick, which is now a full depot.

What then happened was, someone at First decided to abolish the SMT licence, and the depots at Westfield and Livingston moved onto the Midland Bluebird licence, whilst switched over to Lowland.

So, at some point afterwards, this situation has been partly reversed.

It was around 2002 when Lowland licences was killed off and everything was rearrange with the Border depots moving to MB, while Livingstone Dalkeith, Musselburgh, and North Berwick all Switched to the all never FIRST Scotland East licences. From that point onward it covered the accounts of both companies.

With all the current focus on Firsts 'scaling back', I can't help being aware of the political dimension.
I don't live a million miles from Bracknell, usually drive round it once a week, since the closure announcement I have googled 'Bracknell bus depot closure' a number of times, yes a brief article in local paper distilled from the press release but absolutely no sign of angry residents up in arms, councillors protesting, outraged local MP making political capital etc etc, pretty much indifference all round!

Can't comment on Hereford or Potteries but I am a regular visitor to Scotland which these days is a very politicised place compared to suburban Berkshire.
First are a perceived as a Scottish company (Well sort of, head office is in Aberdeen). When First lost the Scotrail franchise recently, the media went into overdrive about a 'foreign company' (Abeilo of the Nederlands) "taking over" Scotrail (actually a franchise award).
If First wanted to scale back any operations in Scotland (I have no hard evidence that they are planning to do so by the way) there would be a local media storm, questions asked in Holyrood etc.
First of course have a huge bus operation in Glasgow, and a large one in Aberdeen, so they have a huge vested interest in keeping local politicians 'sweet'.

First are never out of the papers, Nor is McGills or Stagecoach. When First cut back in 2011 there had debates in Holyrood, and the local MSP lain Gray ( what every happened to him) tried to create a bill to nationalise the buses again.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

TheGrandWazoo is on the money about what I was trying to get across, about the reason I was wondering about large developments in each areas. To be fair if there were plans afoot for a big large developments in Hereford I bet First might have held off a bit longer?

With some of the points, which I fully understand are not really connected to what your trying to get across:

* Northampton, Chester and London were sold off or closed.
* East Lothian Buses did expand with a new route and has improved the 113.
* Musselburgh depot has plans for new housing linked to the old Tesco site next door etc, so the depot has to move at some point in the time, I'm not sure what is going on with it but other locations have been looked at aswell. I bet First well be expecting a nice fat wad of cash for the depot.

http://www.eastlothiancourier.com/n...an-on-old-tesco-site-in-musselburgh-imminent/

Your total right its has been 15 seconds from death since 2011, but to fair back in the day it had alot of non DDA buses, its been infront of the Traffic commissioner too many times, its accounts have been in a complete an utter mess for years, I've even posted them here and no one could put a positive spin on them in either xmas 2013 or 2014. It only managed to make a profit by selling off land in one of the accounts.

IF and its a very BIG IF: We don't know whats around the conner, I dare say we and that does include myself will just have to sit on our hands and shut the hell up until it happens. What ever that might be including moving the depot to a new location. There are still rumors about LCB expanding again but who knows! For all we know

The point I was making (and I think this is where VolvoDart is coming from) is that First Edinburgh/FSE has been consistently reported as being ready for closure for the last three+ years. I chose a selection of quotes across the years from a range of posters to illustrate this.

The fact that other operations that have been disposed of is not relevant. The common theme is that all the quotes refer to FSE's closure is the relevant bit. As an aside, every opco was referred to as being affected at some point (e.g. York, Doncaster, Bolton, Bury etc) - some had to be right

Fact is that these rumours keep getting reported with little or no substance to them. I think that was VolvoDart's point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Bracknell is an odd sort of place for bus operations.

The 1960s/70s bits of new town were designed and built with very good bus priority - bus only link roads and so on which are still mostly in use. The routes round the 'southern estates' were commercial, although Courtneys' intervention may have pushed them over the edge.

The 1950s bits to the north of the town centre were designed in an era when the average working person didn't own a car, hence problems with parked cars.

Also, there's still quite a substantial chunk of the population there who moved in as young couples in the 50s and are now senior citizens (see ENCTS reimbursement) and some resdential areas are within walking distance if you're reasonably able bodied - and the relatively high flat fare that First charge in Bracknell does not encourage short journeys.

The 1980s bits further north were not designed with any thought to bus services - mostly cul-de-sac off cul-de-sac sort of style, inside a perimiter road that's not a welcoming place to walk to / wait for a bus.

The demographics are odd as well - very high proportions of both inward and outward commuting.

The outward commuting includes a fairly substantial flow towards London, but not with sufficient mass to make early morning / later evening bus services to connect with a train service (that's prone to delays) viable. Also to Heathrow which is not easy by public transport from Bracknell.

A lot of the inward commuting is to high-tech firms on the business parks, and most of these put on their own shuttle bus / coaches from the station to the front door, hence another lot of passengers lost to local buses.

Then a (broadly) very well off rural hinterland that is not good bus operating territory.

Very true and a good summation. That was exactly what I was driving at (and more to be honest) and the same can be said for other new towns in SE England such as Stevenage and Harlow

 

[DunsBus]

It was around 2002 when Lowland licences was killed off and everything was rearrange with the Border depots moving to MB, while Livingstone Dalkeith, Musselburgh, and North Berwick all Switched to the all never FIRST Scotland East licences. From that point onward it covered the accounts of both companies.



First are never out of the papers, Nor is McGills or Stagecoach. When First cut back in 2011 there had debates in Holyrood, and the local MSP lain Gray ( what every happened to him) tried to create a bill to nationalise the buses again.

The Lowland licence wasn't killed off, it was renamed "First Edinburgh Ltd" with the Midland Bluebird one retitled "Midland Bluebird Ltd T/A First Edinburgh" around the same time. It was the SMT licence which was killed off.

Seem to remember too that in October 2000 the Borders depots moved from the Lowland licence to the Midland Bluebird one.

 

[overthewater]

The Lowland licence wasn't killed off, it was renamed "First Edinburgh Ltd" with the Midland Bluebird one retitled "Midland Bluebird Ltd T/A First Edinburgh" around the same time. It was the SMT licence which was killed off.

Seem to remember too that in October 2000 the Borders depots moved from the Lowland licence to the Midland Bluebird one.

That cant be correct can it? Since the current First Edinburgh licences is PM0000923, which is FAR to high for Lowland, since it one of the original companies? Surly Lowland would have been either 9, 12 or 13, with Strathtay and Central or Kelvin taking the other slot?

1: First glasgow No1 - Old Sthycaylde buses
2: Lothian buses.
3: Midland bluebird.
4: Fife Scottish .
5: Bluebird .
6: First glasgow No2 - Central Scottish one.
7: Eastern Scottish
8: Western Scottish
9: ??????
10: A1 SERVICE
11ODDS OF TROON
12: ????
13: ?????
14: HUTCHISONS COACHES
15: Mcgills