First Group: General Discussion

[90sWereBetter]

Yeah, it turns out the Norwich Streetdecks aren't coming after all. Wouldn't be surprised if they've been diverted to Leicester or Weston-Super-Mare, looking at that order list.

What's also interesting is that we finally find out what's replacing the motley collection of late-1990s Scania/Wright single-deckers at Colchester, what with nearly 20 Streetlights going there. It almost seemed as if they wouldn't be replaced in time for the DDA deadline.

Which leads me to a question: apart from the aforementioned Scanias at Colchester and Kernow's Olympian fleet, what other sizeable concentrations of non-DDA buses are there left in First's fleets?

 

[overthewater]

FSE still has around a dozen in active service, mainly found in the Stirling area.

 

[THarris123]

So like ADL said, their orders were for Scotland leaving the Wrightbus stuff mostly for England. B5LH for Bolton will be the Leigh Guided as I predicted.

So apart from the 25 E400s for Bristol and a few E200s for Wales, all the rest of ADL order is for Scotland.
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Yeah, it turns out the Norwich Streetdecks aren't coming after all. Wouldn't be surprised if they've been diverted to Leicester or Weston-Super-Mare, looking at that order lists.

They're going to Wells in Somerset, which is known as Weston in the order lists for some strange reason.

 

[pompeyfan]

Yeah, it turns out the Norwich Streetdecks aren't coming after all. Wouldn't be surprised if they've been diverted to Leicester or Weston-Super-Mare, looking at that order list.

What's also interesting is that we finally find out what's replacing the motley collection of late-1990s Scania/Wright single-deckers at Colchester, what with nearly 20 Streetlights going there. It almost seemed as if they wouldn't be replaced in time for the DDA deadline.

Which leads me to a question: apart from the aforementioned Scanias at Colchester and Kernow's Olympian fleet, what other sizeable concentrations of non-DDA buses are there left in First's fleets?

There's still a fair amount in First Solent, with 16 DartSLF's and a similar amount of B10Bles to replace, although hoeford is getting 15 Streetlite Max's, that still leaves a deficit of around 16, so mid-life stuff from somewhere needs to transfer in. Yeovil and Weymouth both also have old darts and B6's, but I understand Ex-Bristol 05 plate darts are to replace them.

 

[overthewater]

This opens up some questions, about the First Scotland East fleet, with 30 new buses heading into the company, It would only really be replacing a small amount of non DDA buses. Add in the facts some are getting refurbished, makes me wonder if 45 of FSE oldest single deckers are being done up with the rest being sent south?
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Stagecoach needs to update its standard interior - its shockingly garish and Joe public would not realise that their 04 registered ALX300 had been replaced by a 14 registered Enviro300 as the interior is identical! Even a friend of mine who is a transport enthusiast boarded a new Stagecoach East X5 Plaxton Elite in a hurry and once seated thought he was in one of the older B9/Panthers as the interior was too similar....

Looks like your got your wish:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/david371/18754133806/in/photostream/

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yeah, it turns out the Norwich Streetdecks aren't coming after all. Wouldn't be surprised if they've been diverted to Leicester or Weston-Super-Mare, looking at that order list.

What's also interesting is that we finally find out what's replacing the motley collection of late-1990s Scania/Wright single-deckers at Colchester, what with nearly 20 Streetlights going there. It almost seemed as if they wouldn't be replaced in time for the DDA deadline.

Which leads me to a question: apart from the aforementioned Scanias at Colchester and Kernow's Olympian fleet, what other sizeable concentrations of non-DDA buses are there left in First's fleets?

Looks like they've been redirected to Wells (sub depot of Weston).

First Somerset and Bristol still have a good few non-DDA Darts as to First Devon and Cornwall, BTW

 

[THarris123]

Looks like they've been redirected to Wells (sub depot of Weston).

First Somerset and Bristol still have a good few non-DDA Darts as to First Devon and Cornwall, BTW

Wells are a subdepot of Bath.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Wells are a subdepot of Bath.

Thought they'd flicked it back to being a sub depot of WM and that all 3 depots have a single senior manager?

Anyhow, whatever it is, those 8 listed for Weston are doubtless the ones for Wells.

 

[the101]

Which leads me to a question: apart from the aforementioned Scanias at Colchester and Kernow's Olympian fleet, what other sizeable concentrations of non-DDA buses are there left in First's fleets?

There are still apparently 50(!!) single-deckers at Potteries which aren't DDA compliant. rumour is that something a bit more drastic is in the offing to deal with this, made more believable by Potteries not being in line for anything new this year.

 

[overthewater]

There are still apparently 50(!!) single-deckers at Potteries which aren't DDA compliant. rumour is that something a bit more drastic is in the offing to deal with this, made more believable by Potteries not being in line for anything new this year.

Any ideas? Plans to buy newish single hand stock?

 

[Volvodart]

In the past on here, claims like this have proved incorrect.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Further to my posting about the non-DDA compliant Scanias at Colchester, there are four S-TPWs, three T-SSFs, three V-DVFs and four V-FSCs in service at present. With 19 Streetlites going to Colchester, that will be enough to replace all of these and have a few of the later Scania/Eclipse single deckers sent to Clacton to retire the trio of non-DDA Scanias there. However, there is also 60206 (Y598KNE), which I think is DDA-compliant. It will be interesting to see where this one ends up.

All in all, First in East Anglia are mostly DDA-compliant. The only buses in Eastern Counties area that aren't are five Olympians at Yarmouth (which are mainly for schools and Bernard Matthews contracts) and R466CAH, the Dart which seemingly refuses to die at Lowestoft. The W-reg B7TLs have been DDA'd for further service. In Essex, I think once these Scanias go, there are four or five W-EOW Volvo B10BLEs, a trio of W-reg B7TLs which haven't yet had the DDA modifications, two R-reg Darts at Braintree, and the old girl L305PWR, the last remaining Olympian with First Essex.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In the past on here, claims like this have proved incorrect.

Surely not hock:

I was waiting for the first "I'd expect (Arriva/Stagecoach/Rotala/Go Ahead**) to buy it as it would (be a great geographic fit/be a great strategic fit/ take them into a new geography**)" line from someone

** Delete as appropriate

Or perhaps the lack of anything new for the Potteries (which I confess was a little bit of surprise) points to a complex pattern of cascades?

In a potentially more straightforward view and looking only at Mr Eggleton's empire, I don't think that Leicester or Wyvern have much non-DDA SD fleet left and they're getting 30+ new vehicles

 

[KendalKing]

There are still apparently 50(!!) single-deckers at Potteries which aren't DDA compliant. rumour is that something a bit more drastic is in the offing to deal with this, made more believable by Potteries not being in line for anything new this year.

The Potteries have received one new bus of the 2015 order, that being a StreetLite Max 63250 (SN15 ABF).

(which I confess was a little bit of surprise) points to a complex pattern of cascades?

Be interesting to see what, if anything happens.

 

[Stonesourscotty]

The Bolton B5's are reported to be gaining a new Hybrid Livery

 

[the101]

In the past on here, claims like this have proved incorrect.

We will see, but I doubt First have begun to discuss it with the unions for a laugh. And sale, it ain't.

The Potteries have received one new bus of the 2015 order, that being a StreetLite Max 63250 (SN15 ABF).

Would be the wrong answer. It was built last summer as part of the 10 for Potteries in 2014's order but following appearance at the NEC returned to Northern Ireland for rebuild. It should have been 63180 but was renumbered to take it into the Euro 6 series alongside this year's StreetLites.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

We will see, but I doubt First have begun to discuss it with the unions for a laugh. And sale, it ain't.

.

So if not a sale, what?

Can't see a closure - there's a more likely candidate for that further south IMHO.

 

[overthewater]

So if not a sale, what?

Can't see a closure - there's a more likely candidate for that further south IMHO.

There is only one option left; renting new buses? is that possible?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There is only one option left; renting new buses? is that possible?

One option left? Really?

Would that require discussion with unions?

 

[overthewater]

One option left? Really?

Would that require discussion with unions?

What else could it be if its not a sell off, buying second hand stock etc Mind you some unions can be rather fussy over such matters.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What else could it be if its not a sell off, buying second hand stock etc Mind you some unions can be rather fussy over such matters.

I highly doubt that's a concern for unions.

Would perhaps one option that would impact on union members MIGHT be a scaling back of operations. For instance, a cut of 20 vehicles would impact on probably c. 35 drivers?

Were that the case, AND WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE CASE MAY BE, then that would certainly impact and would require trade union involvement. Getting some mid life stuff from Ensign wouldn't!

 

[overthewater]

I highly doubt that's a concern for unions.

Would perhaps one option that would impact on union members MIGHT be a scaling back of operations. For instance, a cut of 20 vehicles would impact on probably c. 35 drivers?

Were that the case, AND WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE CASE MAY BE, then that would certainly impact and would require trade union involvement. Getting some mid life stuff from Ensign wouldn't!

Its possible, IF ( and as you say we don't know) First did buy in second hand stock or rented some buses, that could mean a new type of bus and the unions might want to have some say in how to introduce them, ie given drivers some time off to be able to have some knowledge of the new type?

I would have never have thought about "scaling back its operations." It just seems like a very dramatic solution to a minor problem. Surly there would be some spare stock within the company? Its not like the potties is like the Lothian?

 

[robertclark125]

There is also the option of buying in buses from another group, or even leasing them. Let's not forget, Stagecoach UK Bus are starting to sell some of the 175 Scania Omnicity double deckers in their London business. Some have already found new homes, such as two going to Norfolk operator Coach Services. That's one possible option for double deckers.

The other bit is, Stagecoach UK bus has decided that its London business will lease buses in future, and this will not just be double deckers, but single deckers as well. So, as they come off lease, Firstgroup could approach the leasing company, with a view to then leasing them, or even buying some outright.

And perhaps the unlikely option, but still an option, is to lease vehicles from a big group. Stagecoach have some vehicles due for replacement at east Scotland in September, when 19 new E200 long versions are introduced. The 19 MAN 18.240s being ousted are going elsewhere in the group. They could replace some older but DDA compliant vehicles, that could be leased to First. I know its unlikely, but it's not something to rule out.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Its possible, IF ( and as you say we don't know) First did buy in second hand stock or rented some buses, that could mean a new type of bus and the unions might want to have some say in how to introduce them, ie given drivers some time off to be able to have some knowledge of the new type?

I would have never have thought about "scaling back its operations." It just seems like a very dramatic solution to a minor problem. Surly there would be some spare stock within the company? Its not like the potties is like the Lothian?

No, you're looking at it the wrong way. It might be a contraction that reflects trading and the side effect is that you don't need as many vehicles and so some non DDA ones bite the dust anyway.

To suggest that there's major union discussions to bring in a new vehicle type is frankly unrealistic (unless it was something markedly different like artics)! Type training is pretty standard - after all, they managed it with Streetlites last year.

 

[mbonwick]

There is also the option of buying in buses from another group, or even leasing them. Let's not forget, Stagecoach UK Bus are starting to sell some of the 175 Scania Omnicity double deckers in their London business. Some have already found new homes, such as two going to Norfolk operator Coach Services. That's one possible option for double deckers.

The other bit is, Stagecoach UK bus has decided that its London business will lease buses in future, and this will not just be double deckers, but single deckers as well. So, as they come off lease, Firstgroup could approach the leasing company, with a view to then leasing them, or even buying some outright.

And perhaps the unlikely option, but still an option, is to lease vehicles from a big group. Stagecoach have some vehicles due for replacement at east Scotland in September, when 19 new E200 long versions are introduced. The 19 MAN 18.240s being ousted are going elsewhere in the group. They could replace some older but DDA compliant vehicles, that could be leased to First. I know its unlikely, but it's not something to rule out.

The omnicities were leased by ELBG and are being returned to the lessor (believed to be Scania themselves). Nothing to do with Stagecoach 'selling'.

There won't be any single decks coming out of London for some considerable time yet, and in any case nobody will want 14/5 year old darts!

The 19 MAN/E300s you mention already have a home decided within Stagecoach. No chance of being leased to Stagecoach's biggest rival...
______

Now, to try and inject some sensibility and follow on from TheGrandWazoo, here's my thoughts.

Union involvement only usually happens when there is a significant impact on the workforce. Apparently it's not closure, but it could be downsizing....either in the sense of routes being axed, or vehicle types changed downwards (e.g. Stagecoach Carlisle going from E200s to Solos).

Alternatively, it's possible (but unlikely in my opinion) that First may try to buy themselves more time by converting routes to decker operation (DDA deadline for deckers is a whole year after that for saloons).

 

[Robertj21a]

I never fully understand the Potteries operation. It should be good bus territory but the number of operators keeps dwindling. Recently, Arriva couldn't make Wardles profitable (so sold it to D & G) and the number of traditional, small, independents is much reduced nowadays. Even so, First can't seem to make it work. Their single deck fleet has had little investment for some time (other than cascades from elsewhere) and yet their only serious competitor, D & G, seems to maintain a generally modern fleet.

 

[smtglasgow]

I don't know enough about the area to comment on how well or otherwise First or their competitors are doing, but it's perhaps telling that the network revamp they conducted last year has been followed by several reboots. And not just the usual tinkering to get things right - the subsequent revisions have been quite significant. A shame really, because the online publicity looks good - a lot of effort has gone into trying to create a coherent Potteries brand.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't know enough about the area to comment on how well or otherwise First or their competitors are doing, but it's perhaps telling that the network revamp they conducted last year has been followed by several reboots. And not just the usual tinkering to get things right - the subsequent revisions have been quite significant. A shame really, because the online publicity looks good - a lot of effort has gone into trying to create a coherent Potteries brand.

The MD is a vastly experienced and respected bus man, being ex Transdev, Arriva, Go Ahead etc so surprised that things haven't improved.

Also, before people get too hung up on DDA compliance, quite a number of the Potteries fleet are Scania L94/Wright (V to Y reg) which should be relatively easy to modify and certificate as compliant (I think)! That said, the fleet profile is not brilliant with chronic underinvestment between 2004 and 2014.

 

[Robertj21a]

The MD is a vastly experienced and respected bus man, being ex Transdev, Arriva, Go Ahead etc so surprised that things haven't improved.

Also, before people get too hung up on DDA compliance, quite a number of the Potteries fleet are Scania L94/Wright (V to Y reg) which should be relatively easy to modify and certificate as compliant (I think)! That said, the fleet profile is not brilliant with chronic underinvestment between 2004 and 2014.

Has anyone successfully made a Scania L94/Wright into DDA compliant yet ? - I can't think of any.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Has anyone successfully made a Scania L94/Wright into DDA compliant yet ? - I can't think of any.

I thought the issue was with L113s but happy to stand corrected.