First Group: General Discussion

[Robertj21a]

http://m.stokesentinel.co.uk/Bus-de...tory-26798152-detail/story.html#ixzz3eSlR80dM

 

[Volvodart]

There are statements about the closures on all the relevant First websites. It seems odd that they timed the announcements with Catch the Bus Week.

 

[KendalKing]

Taken from Firstbus website:-

First Bus has announced proposals to close three of its smaller depots: Newcastle-under-Lyme, Hereford and Bracknell later this year.

Under the proposals, which are subject to consultation, Bracknell will close 28 August. Some routes will be retained but will operate from First’s depot in Slough, including Greenline Services to London and Legoland services. First Bus, as previously announced, has also sold to Reading Buses Route 90, which operates between Reading and Bracknell.

First proposes to close Hereford and Newcastle-under-Lyme depots on 5 September. In Hereford just 3,500 passengers per day travel with First and therefore the company plans to withdraw completely from the area. In the Potteries First proposes to combine its Newcastle under Lyme and Stoke Adderley Green Depots, which are in close proximity.

First said it remains committed to running a significant fleet in the Potteries in the long term and will remain a major employer, but operating two depots in such close proximity is no longer a viable option. In both Bracknell and Hereford given the volume of other bus operators in the area, First said it was confident that customers shouldn’t be left without a service.

First said that in the wake of challenging local economies, reductions in external funding and insufficient passenger demand, difficult decisions had to be reached in order to sustain the long term future of its local businesses.

Giles Fearnley, Managing Director of First Bus, said: “In 2012 we launched our transformation plan which has seen great success in a huge number of our local businesses, as we reported at our full year results earlier in June. We continue to see passenger and revenue growth across the business and we have a wide range of actions to be implemented throughout this year to further benefit our customers and maintain growth. However, despite all the hard work, we have been unable to make the progress we were seeking in Bracknell, Hereford and in some parts of the Potteries.

“Whilst these proposals are disappointing, we simply must ensure our local businesses are on a sustainable and solid footing in order that we maintain the momentum of change toward meeting our medium term financial targets and therefore protect jobs in the long term. Regrettably, we see no alternative, but to close these depots.”

First confirmed that it has started the collective consultation process with trade unions on the possibility of redundancies at all three depots, with a combined 222 jobs 'at risk'. First said that it will actively support any employee who would wish to transfer to other First operations. In addition many colleagues in Bracknell will have opportunities to transfer to the Slough depot, Reading Buses or the new operator of Bracknell Forest Council’s contracted services.

Giles Fearnley added: “We understand that our proposals will be very distressing for our employees. Our plans do not, in any way, reflect the commitment of affected colleagues, who have worked tirelessly to provide the best possible service to local communities. I’d like to thank them for their hard work and loyalty. Should the proposals go ahead we will be doing everything that we can to assist those affected, including the possibility of transferring colleagues to other First Bus operations.”

Employees affected by the proposals amount to around 1% of the total number of First Bus employees across the UK.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I guess it answers the question about the fundamental changes for the Potteries and the need for union negotiations for a contraction in services as opposed to unlikely speculation about leasing vehicles and the like.

I'd forgotten about the depot being earmarked for closure a few years ago and that First don't now own the site IIRC as it was actually fairly obvious. Still, quite a comedown from the days when First was formed when PMT had four depots and a fairly decent outstation.

Bracknell is doubtless down to the loss of tendered work and guess it's difficult to carry that sort of overhead especially when a nearby depot has spare capacity.

Hereford is more surprising as they gained some tendered work not so long ago which whilst not massive, increased the PVR by about 20%.

One wonders about some of the other vulnerable outposts; I can think of two in the South West that I've mentioned before.

That said, we've seen a number of depots close in the last year or two (across the major groups). With the continued removal of council subsidies (which will accelerate over the next few years as LG central grants get cut further), I expect that these aren't the last we will see and that's not confined to First.

 

[overthewater]

I never for one min, expected further depot closures, nor did I expect three at one once.

One wonders about some of the other vulnerable outposts; I can think of two in the South West that I've mentioned before.

Musselburgh?

 

[Robertj21a]

I never for one min, expected further depot closures, nor did I expect three at one once.



Musselburgh?

It didn't need much 'reading between the lines' in the last Group statement from First to guess that some more tough decisions would be needed if they are to ever get out of the mess Lockhead left behind. It might be pertinent to also recognise that these 3 depot closures, sad as they are, will still only make a very small contribution to the piggy bank. Much more still needs to be done.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I never for one min, expected further depot closures, nor did I expect three at one once.



Musselburgh?

Musselburgh..... south west?..... south west of North Berwick

As the council cuts come in, we will see more and more depot closures and not just with First. Stagecoach have or are closing depots, either outright or replacing with lower cost outstations, as have First and Arriva.

Also, we've got to remember that many depots were built in the 1920s and 1930s. They were often built to provide under cover parking (higher rates and utility bills) and the fabric of them is also becoming quite tired (which has been cited with Chorley and Cumnock IIRC). Faced with funding dilaps or closure, not difficult to see what might happen!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It didn't need much 'reading between the lines' in the last Group statement from First to guess that some more tough decisions would be needed if they are to ever get out of the mess Lockhead left behind. It might be pertinent to also recognise that these 3 depot closures, sad as they are, will still only make a very small contribution to the piggy bank. Much more still needs to be done.

I don't know if that's the issue so much as adding to the piggy bank. They won't make off NuL. Hereford will provide a property benefit as will Bracknell (plus selling the 90). They will also be able to redeploy DDA fleet to see off some of the non compliant tat as well.

It's something that all the groups are doing. Stagecoach are closing three depots (all beginning with C, strangely). Fewer council contracts mean lower PVRs, and more competition for what remains is higher.

 

[Robertj21a]

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I don't know if that's the issue so much as adding to the piggy bank. They won't make off NuL. Hereford will provide a property benefit as will Bracknell (plus selling the 90). They will also be able to redeploy DDA fleet to see off some of the non compliant tat as well.

It's something that all the groups are doing. Stagecoach are closing three depots (all beginning with C, strangely). Fewer council contracts mean lower PVRs, and more competition for what remains is higher.

Agreed. I was only trying to emphasise that the task ahead of First Group is still massive - and this is miniscule. Even so, they have to start somewhere and under-performing depots is as good a place as anywhere. Ironically, as you mentioned, Hereford had only recently gained some extra work.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The extract from 'The Sentinel' article sounds ominous:

It comes as passengers have been warned to expect even more changes to First's timetables later this year.

April 2014 off-peak vehicle requirement - 159 buses,
July 2014, following a network review - 145 buses,
May 2015 - 143 buses.
June 2015, withdrawal of 2 further routes - down to 140 buses.

A friend with inside information, a few months ago asked, 'how would you manage if your last bus was around 1830?'

As a long suffering passenger of this shower, it would be nice if the company admitted some of it's own mistakes in driving passengers away through their failure to operate advertised services, with fares increasing at twice the rate of inflation, and in buses only fit for the scrapyard.

The move has been blamed on Government funding cuts, the current economic situation, and a lack of passengers using the network.

Redevelopment of the Newcastle Depot has previously been affected by ground contamination - all those years of use as a bus depot!

 

[the101]

The maths behind the Hereford and Newcastle closures are as follows:

Potteries has a 50-vehicle DDA problem looming. Close Newcastle, take about 25 out of the PVR and transfer the 20-odd DDA compliant buses from Hereford to the Potteries, plus the four 'nearly new' ones mentioned by the local media, and there's your problem solved.

It's just a very, very shabby way of dealing with something that years of chronic under-investment in the Potteries operation has created.

 

[Robertj21a]

The maths behind the Hereford and Newcastle closures are as follows:

Potteries has a 50-vehicle DDA problem looming. Close Newcastle, take about 25 out of the PVR and transfer the 20-odd DDA compliant buses from Hereford to the Potteries, plus the four 'nearly new' ones mentioned by the local media, and there's your problem solved.

It's just a very, very shabby way of dealing with something that years of chronic under-investment in the Potteries operation has created.

Yes - but what routes will most likely contribute about 25 pvr ?

 

[Surreyman]

Agreed. I was only trying to emphasise that the task ahead of First Group is still massive - and this is miniscule. Even so, they have to start somewhere and under-performing depots is as good a place as anywhere. Ironically, as you mentioned, Hereford had only recently gained some extra work.

Robertj21a; Completely agree,
I wonder if what is happening is that Giles Fearnleys efforts at reviving the Firstbus business have worked in the 'Good' areas but the bean-counters and realists are now saying "Times - Up" for some of the consistently under performing territories.
It looks as if 'Return on Capital employed' is the major factor here, a business has to be more than just in the black, it has to show a decent rate of return.
Other parts of the First bus business I would watch are;-
FSE
Yeovil
Plymouth
Cymru

 

[overthewater]

The maths behind the Hereford and Newcastle closures are as follows:

Potteries has a 50-vehicle DDA problem looming. Close Newcastle, take about 25 out of the PVR and transfer the 20-odd DDA compliant buses from Hereford to the Potteries, plus the four 'nearly new' ones mentioned by the local media, and there's your problem solved.

It's just a very, very shabby way of dealing with something that years of chronic under-investment in the Potteries operation has created.

But are we sure there are cutting 25 buses out of the network? There are a few other places with soon to be spare stock, which could also help bring that number down a wee bit.

Robertj21a; Completely agree,
I wonder if what is happening is that Giles Fearnleys efforts at reviving the Firstbus business have worked in the 'Good' areas but the bean-counters and realists are now saying "Times - Up" for some of the consistently under performing territories. It looks as if 'Return on Capital employed' is the major factor here, a business has to be more than just in the black, it has to show a decent rate of return.
Other parts of the First bus business I would watch are;-
* FSE
* Yeovil
* Plymouth
* Cymru

I've been asking about this for years, yes you need time to overhaul bad areas. I fully understand what many people have said and postaged on this subject, of course some of the araes have managed to be improved. But I did say " someone going to get fed up and wonder why are we -as in First; continual wasting more money?

Ie lets just cut and run and save lots of money instead.

Any money that has been spent in the bad area at least went on new stock. To be fair Wales and FSE got a piece of the action. Mind you FSE have also made cuts of greater than what's being suggested for the Potteries area, but I'm hopeful FSE two sperate accounts for upto April 2015 will at least break even.

"Times - Up" was always going to be on the cards unless someone was more optimistic about turning some of these areas around, I never believe that was possible.

Does Arriva do alright in the Potteries area? Could we see Yeovil being transferred to the buses of Somerset? When it comes to FSE, its only the East Lothian area which is the problem, and there is a rumour going around LCB are planning improvements in November

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But are we sure there are cutting 25 buses out of the network? There are a few other places with soon to be spare stock, which could also help bring that number down a wee bit.




I've been asking about this for years, yes you need time to overhaul bad areas. I fully understand what many people have said and postaged on this subject, of course some of the araes have managed to be improved. But I did say " someone going to get fed up and wonder why are we -as in First; continual wasting more money?

Ie lets just cut and run and save lots of money instead.

Any money that has been spent in the bad area at least went on new stock. To be fair Wales and FSE got a piece of the action. Mind you FSE have also made cuts of greater than what's being suggested for the Potteries area, but I'm hopeful FSE two sperate accounts for upto April 2015 will at least break even.

"Times - Up" was always going to be on the cards unless someone was more optimistic about turning some of these areas around, I never believe that was possible.

Does Arriva do alright in the Potteries area? Could we see Yeovil being transferred to the buses of Somerset? When it comes to FSE, its only the East Lothian area which is the problem, and there is a rumour going around LCB are planning improvements in November

Arriva have largely pulled out of the Potteries with the sale of the old Wardle/D&G business back to D&G

Whilst it has been rumoured, and I personally thought it might happen, I don't know if Yeovil will go to BoS now. Yeovil is getting an upgrade of fleet with ex Slough Solos already there and ex Bristol (via Southampton) 2006 Darts due (with some already at Weymouth ready to head there).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Robertj21a; Completely agree,
I wonder if what is happening is that Giles Fearnleys efforts at reviving the Firstbus business have worked in the 'Good' areas but the bean-counters and realists are now saying "Times - Up" for some of the consistently under performing territories.
It looks as if 'Return on Capital employed' is the major factor here, a business has to be more than just in the black, it has to show a decent rate of return.
Other parts of the First bus business I would watch are;-
FSE
Yeovil
Plymouth
Cymru

I don't think Cymru is due for much of a change. The ridership has done fairly well with the new fleet and the Cymru Clipper network having improved things.

That said, Ponterdawe depot has been closed - it ceased to be a depot sometime ago and was operating as an outbase latterly. I'd still expect Maesteg to go at some point as Port Talbot (Bryncethin) is relatively close. Haverfordwest is on a limb and I did wonder if that might go at some point but it survives at the moment.

Yeovil was one I speculated on but that seems ok at the moment. The longer term prospects on Weston and Plymouth are perhaps more interesting.

However, let's not forget that Stagecoach are also closing depots. Chorley has just been announced as has Cowdenbeath (parallels with Bracknell on that one). Cumnock is also going IIRC and Brynmawr went last year (though think an o/s still remains. I think you'll see more going in due course for the reasons I outlined before.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The maths behind the Hereford and Newcastle closures are as follows:

Potteries has a 50-vehicle DDA problem looming. Close Newcastle, take about 25 out of the PVR and transfer the 20-odd DDA compliant buses from Hereford to the Potteries, plus the four 'nearly new' ones mentioned by the local media, and there's your problem solved.

It's just a very, very shabby way of dealing with something that years of chronic under-investment in the Potteries operation has created.

Will it be 25? Remember that Midlands is due a number of new vehicles for Leicester and Worcester and those depots are largely DDA compliant now

 

[Surreyman]

Does anybody know how many older vehicles have or are due to be upgraded to meet DDA standards?

I am making the assumption that all vehicles (Buses)from Y reg onwards are DDA from new.
Assume that all B7TL/ALX 400 double-decks W & X reg are/will be DDA.
Ditto all ex London B7TL & Trident (Unless you know otherwise?)

Single deckers - unclear, many B10BLE & Scania L94UB of W & X reg upgraded, have any older ones been done?
Assume that Darts are not worth upgrading.
Unsure about B6BLE & older Solos?

Looking at planned new deliveries and trying to second-guess 'cascades',
The one one part of FB that stands out like a sore thumb with very large numbers of older non-compliant vehicles is Devon & Cornwall (& I am not thinking about the Olympians)!

 

[Volvodart]

There are plenty of new buses coming to more than eliminate the non DDA single deckers. First have said that there will be just a small number of non DDA double deckers to replace next year.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There are plenty of new buses coming to more than eliminate the non DDA single deckers. First have said that there will be just a small number of non DDA double deckers to replace next year.

Been said on the specific Kernow thread that a sizeable number of B7TLs will come from West Yorkshire to help cull the Olympians substantially. However, some Olympians will be retained as they have another year before DDA hits them.

 

[Surreyman]

There are plenty of new buses coming to more than eliminate the non DDA single deckers. First have said that there will be just a small number of non DDA double deckers to replace next year.

Clearly First have to meet the deadlines and obviously will, my question is more about how they do this, my simplistic number crunching indicates that they can only do this by upgrading significant numbers of older vehicles or reducing services/closing depots and this week has shown the latter.

 

[the101]

But are we sure there are cutting 25 buses out of the network? There are a few other places with soon to be spare stock, which could also help bring that number down a wee bit.

They're going to have to, as there simply isn't the room at Adderley Green to take in all of Newcastle's work, in terms of both vehicle and driver car parking.

If they clear the multitude of scrap/unlicenced buses which for some reason linger at AG it would give some extra space, but it's going to be a big struggle to get even another 30 buses in there, never mind the 60-odd that are at Newcastle at the moment.

Withdrawal of various odds and ends of services (which has already begun), the loss of some tendered work and some frequency reductions should get the PVR down to where it needs to be. The people at D&G Bus will no doubt be watching developments very carefully.

 

[overthewater]

Isn't there supposed to be a decent number of new deckers on order for 2016? That's what I kept on hearing.

Is therw any spare land at the other depot around stoke on Trent.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Isn't there supposed to be a decent number of new deckers on order for 2016? That's what I kept on hearing.

Is therw any spare land at the other depot around stoke on Trent.

I doubt that any discussion on 2016 orders is not much more than guesswork at the moment. Businesses will have submitted business cases and will be arguing the toss at the moment. Many Olympians will go this year anyway.

As for Adderley Green, I'm sure that they will be clearing out anything not required in order to create space. At Bristol's Lawrence Hill depot, the increase in PVR (after they'd exhausted reallocation of routes between depots) necessitated the removal of various vehicles (stored for preservation by staff?) as well taking on additional parking in the site next door.

 

[Robertj21a]

Isn't there supposed to be a decent number of new deckers on order for 2016? That's what I kept on hearing.

Is therw any spare land at the other depot around stoke on Trent.

Doubt they will need any more land at Adderley Green, once they clear out the junk there at present. Potteries need to pare back on their unprofitable routes and, as 101 mentions, this is already under way. There must be about 160 (?) buses in the Potteries fleet at present. I'm sure that can be reduced quite significantly.

 

[overthewater]

Just for ref, how much junk is sitting in the depot? What routes in the Potteries area are poor?

Expect for No38 which is one bus, and No43 which is two buses.

 

[the101]

Just for ref, how much junk is sitting in the depot? What routes in the Potteries area are poor?

Expect for No38 which is one bus, and No43 which is two buses.

There has long been a shed which is used for withdrawn buses, which certainly recently was full of old Scanias awaiting the inevitable trip to the scrapyard. This can accommodate about 15 buses. There is also one corner of the yard which was occupied by similarly decrepit Scanias received from Northampton when the depot there was finally cleared, and while these have gone this is regularly used for withdrawn kit.

If they clear these, and make best use of other space, they will get another 30-40 buses in at the absolute max, but the problem with the shed where the withdrawn stuff often lingers is that it's quite tight, and packing them in there will inevitably lead to damage.

It may not just be the poor services which get the chop; there are some which do not serve Hanley which may be abandoned for operational convenience.

The Potteries fleet at the moment (not PVR) is around 160. There is no way on earth all those will fit into Adderley Green. Currently there are about another 20 withdrawn or long-term VOR buses on top of that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Isn't there supposed to be a decent number of new deckers on order for 2016? That's what I kept on hearing.

Is therw any spare land at the other depot around stoke on Trent.

I doubt they have even got to the stage where manufacturers are even tendering for 2016's orders. A lot can happen between now and then in terms of fuel-saving technology and First will no doubt be keeping their powder dry for a while before pulling the trigger.

As for another depot in Stoke, when Newcastle shuts there will only be one Potteries garage, Adderley Green.

 

[overthewater]

If I was a betting man, I would have went for,

* No7b and 99a - which Dgbus could replace.
* No8, but since Dgbus have taken off its No42 I think first will keep it on.

 

[KendalKing]

There must be about 160 (?) buses in the Potteries fleet at present.

There are currently 106 buses allocated to Adderley Green, and 68 buses allocated to Newcastle-under-Lyme, making a total 174 buses.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There are currently 106 buses allocated to Adderley Green, and 68 buses allocated to Newcastle-under-Lyme, making a total 174 buses.

Quick note: when Badgerline bought PMT (albeit that it had Pennine and the Crosville/Red Rider ops, it had about 500 vehicles. The Potteries area probably had 300?

Appreciate it suffers deprivation and economic woes but it should be good bus territory.

 

[Robertj21a]

There are currently 106 buses allocated to Adderley Green, and 68 buses allocated to Newcastle-under-Lyme, making a total 174 buses.

Thanks for that. So if they now want to use only the one depot at Adderley Green (after clearing out 'junk') it looks like it will need quite a reduction in fleet size of at least, say, 25-30 vehicles.????

It will be interesting to see their revised route registrations.

 

[overthewater]

Quick note: when Badgerline bought PMT (albeit that it had Pennine and the Crosville/Red Rider ops, it had about 500 vehicles. The Potteries area probably had 300?

Appreciate it suffers deprivation and economic woes but it should be good bus territory.

How many routes have First lost to other operators in the area? One has to wonder if people have voted with their feet and switched?

 

[baza585]

Thanks for that. So if they now want to use only the one depot at Adderley Green (after clearing out 'junk') it looks like it will need quite a reduction in fleet size of at least, say, 25-30 vehicles.????

It will be interesting to see their revised route registrations.

There's nothing to stop them finding secure parking nearby and using that rather than reducing PVR by as much as 25-30. Time will tell, but the fact that cuts are being made suggests that some routes are un/marginally profitable. Cutting overheads (ie the lease cost of Newcastle depot) makes sense.