First Group: General Discussion

[Ivo]

I'm guessing you mean "PVR"?

There is a reduction overall, although I don't know how much exactly. I would estimate Hadleigh would see a reduction of roughly six, which for a depot of only 60-something buses is rather alarming. Basildon stays roughly the same.

Part of the problem is that they concentrate too much on peak services. I know they get good money out of the 28 (or the 27X as it will be :roll, to the point that it ran every six minutes at one stage, but otherwise? This peak preference can be seen from what is left of the 26; 10 years ago it was their flagship route - the "Canvey Clipper" - whereas now it is an excuse to run otherwise peak-only vehicles on a route that is known to make Arriva good money (in other words, a quick buck). Not to mention that the Canvey Clipper will no longer serve Canvey!

 

[overthewater]

http://www.busandcoach.com/newspage.aspx?id=7628&categoryid=0

First Northampton is to withdraw four of its services in the town from early June. Stagecoach has announced that it will replace two of the routes. On the most frequent service, to Kings Heath, Stagecoach will provide buses every 15 minutes to replace First’s service which runs on a 10-minute frequency. The company is also improving some of its other Northampton services.

Steve Burd, managing director of Stagecoach Midlands, says: “We are pleased to be able to step into what could have been a very difficult position that would have left residents without vital links into the centre of Northampton. By introducing these changes we have ensured that people are still able to use the bus for their transport needs.”

First is unable to say how many jobs will be affected by the cuts, or how many buses will be taken out of its Northampton fleet. First’s Midlands general manager, Steve Zanker, says the cuts will reduce the peak vehicle requirement by 12 buses, which is almost 25 per cent of the Northampton fleet. Discussions continue on possible job losses

Service changes from From 03 June 2013

* Uno 19/19B/19C: University Campuses – Northampton Town Centre – University Campuses

All journeys on Monday to Friday evening, Saturday and Sunday to operate as Service 19A University Campuses – Northampton Town Centre – Sixfields
(Monday to Sunday) Monday to Friday evening every 30 minutes (hourly during the University summer break). Saturday daytime every 30 minutes, evening hourly. Sunday hourly.

* Uno 21: University Campuses – Northampton Town Centre – Rectory Farm: Extended from Northampton Town Centre to Blackthorn and Rectory Farm, via Northampton College and Weston Favell Centre. Monday to Saturday daytime every 15 minutes.

From 09 June 2013

Stagecoach 4 Sunnyside – Northampton Town Centre (Monday to Friday)
Service WITHDRAWN

Stagecoach 16/16X/17 Ecton Brook – Weston Favell – Northampton Town Centre – Obelisk Rise (Monday to Sunday Route and timetable revised.

Services 16 and 17 extended from Northampton Town Centre to Obelisk Rise. Monday to Saturday day time every 10 minutes, evenings every 30 minutes, Sunday day time every 20 minutes. No change to Service 16X.

First 2 Northampton Town Centre – Rectory Farm – Blackthorn
(Monday to Sunday) Timetable revised

First 4A Northampton Town Centre – Kingsthorpe – Acre Lane
(Monday to Sunday) Timetable revised. Additional journey on Monday to Saturday from Northampton Bus Station at 1925 to Acre Lane and return from Acre Lane at 1937 to Northampton Bus Station.

First 12 Northampton Town Centre – Camp Hill Service WITHDRAWN

First 23 Northampton Town Centre – Brackmills Service WITHDRAWN

First 28 Northampton Town Centre – Mereway Tesco – West Hunsbury
Service WITHDRAWN

First 29/30 Northampton Town Centre – St James – Kings Heath
Service WITHDRAWN

Stagecoach 8 Rectory Farm – Weston Favell Centre – Northampton – Towcester. Monday to Saturday daytime route extended to Rectory Farm every 20 minutes. No change on Sunday.

 

[markie73]

http://www.busandcoach.com/newspage.aspx?id=7628&categoryid=0



Service changes from From 03 June 2013

* Uno 19/19B/19C: University Campuses – Northampton Town Centre – University Campuses

All journeys on Monday to Friday evening, Saturday and Sunday to operate as Service 19A University Campuses – Northampton Town Centre – Sixfields
(Monday to Sunday) Monday to Friday evening every 30 minutes (hourly during the University summer break). Saturday daytime every 30 minutes, evening hourly. Sunday hourly.

* Uno 21: University Campuses – Northampton Town Centre – Rectory Farm: Extended from Northampton Town Centre to Blackthorn and Rectory Farm, via Northampton College and Weston Favell Centre. Monday to Saturday daytime every 15 minutes.

From 09 June 2013

Stagecoach 4 Sunnyside – Northampton Town Centre (Monday to Friday)
Service WITHDRAWN

Stagecoach 16/16X/17 Ecton Brook – Weston Favell – Northampton Town Centre – Obelisk Rise (Monday to Sunday Route and timetable revised.

Services 16 and 17 extended from Northampton Town Centre to Obelisk Rise. Monday to Saturday day time every 10 minutes, evenings every 30 minutes, Sunday day time every 20 minutes. No change to Service 16X.

First 2 Northampton Town Centre – Rectory Farm – Blackthorn
(Monday to Sunday) Timetable revised

First 4A Northampton Town Centre – Kingsthorpe – Acre Lane
(Monday to Sunday) Timetable revised. Additional journey on Monday to Saturday from Northampton Bus Station at 1925 to Acre Lane and return from Acre Lane at 1937 to Northampton Bus Station.

First 12 Northampton Town Centre – Camp Hill Service WITHDRAWN

First 23 Northampton Town Centre – Brackmills Service WITHDRAWN

First 28 Northampton Town Centre – Mereway Tesco – West Hunsbury
Service WITHDRAWN

First 29/30 Northampton Town Centre – St James – Kings Heath
Service WITHDRAWN

Stagecoach 8 Rectory Farm – Weston Favell Centre – Northampton – Towcester. Monday to Saturday daytime route extended to Rectory Farm every 20 minutes. No change on Sunday.

So five services are being withdrawn by First leaving just three routes, it will be interesting to see what happens to the remaining services after June 9th but my guess is that they to will be gone sooner rather then later.

Could Unobus be getting ready to compete with First and their service 2 which also serves Blackthorn and Rectory Farm?.

 

[overthewater]

Im more rather interested in Devon and First Edinburgh, the two place with bad accounts last year which have both gone very quite, which is rather strange.

 

[Sandy Drew]

Im more rather interested in Devon and First Edinburgh, the two place with bad accounts last year which have both gone very quite, which is rather strange.

What about Glasgow No2 OTW - this is the worst performing unit in the division, and hasn't contributed a profit for years! Any news on what's happening out west?

 

[overthewater]

What about Glasgow No2 OTW - this is the worst performing unit in the division, and hasn't contributed a profit for years! Any news on what's happening out west?

Cumbernauld is getting closed down on 27th May, Most of the routes have been transferred to other depots in Glasgow.

Most of the routes in Cumbernauld have been scaled right back, thus only two routes: X3 and X5 will operate in the town. Stagecoach are making minor improvements with addtion X25 an hour to four.

That is moving ahead, but First Edinburgh and Devon has had nothing yet....

 

[Volvodart]

That is moving ahead, but First Edinburgh and Devon has had nothing yet....

They closed Dalkeith and Linlithgow and scaled back Musselburgh.

 

[overthewater]

They closed Dalkeith and Linlithgow and scaled back Musselburgh.

Has that reduced the £4m losses?, Is the company now back in the black? Linlithgow was shut to balance the books at Livingston, mind you it's still having vehicle shortages for months now with very little investment. Nothing else seems to getting done, apart Scottish borders, I do see Larbart might be getting refurbished buses for the X38? That still leaves out Stirling.

Still what about Cornwall?

 

[MK Tom]

So five services are being withdrawn by First leaving just three routes, it will be interesting to see what happens to the remaining services after June 9th but my guess is that they to will be gone sooner rather then later.

Could Unobus be getting ready to compete with First and their service 2 which also serves Blackthorn and Rectory Farm?.

I wouldn't try to jump to conclusions about what anybody's plans are. We've had a pretty much 100% failure rate trying to second guess what these companies will do thus far. Also the 21's extension is via Weston Favell. Hardly the fastest route to Rectory Farm. It seems to compete more with Stagecoach routes to there and the college. Seeing as Stagecoach are extending the 16 to Sunnyside, we'll have two routes doing virtually the exact same thing.

 

[overthewater]

I wouldn't try to jump to conclusions about what anybody's plans are. We've had a pretty much 100% failure rate trying to second guess what these companies will do thus far. Also the 21's extension is via Weston Favell. Hardly the fastest route to Rectory Farm. It seems to compete more with Stagecoach routes to there and the college. Seeing as Stagecoach are extending the 16 to Sunnyside, we'll have two routes doing virtually the exact same thing.

Of course when the oft or cc looks in..... nice bit of competition going...

 

[markie73]

I wouldn't try to jump to conclusions about what anybody's plans are. We've had a pretty much 100% failure rate trying to second guess what these companies will do thus far. Also the 21's extension is via Weston Favell. Hardly the fastest route to Rectory Farm. It seems to compete more with Stagecoach routes to there and the college. Seeing as Stagecoach are extending the 16 to Sunnyside, we'll have two routes doing virtually the exact same thing.

Lets hope that Stagecoach sort out the reliability of the 16 and 17 prior to them starting the route extension to Kingsthorpe otherwise they might as well not bother as its common to see at least four or five 16 and 17 buses follow each other from Weston Favell to the bus station.
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I wouldn't try to jump to conclusions about what anybody's plans are. We've had a pretty much 100% failure rate trying to second guess what these companies will do thus far. Also the 21's extension is via Weston Favell. Hardly the fastest route to Rectory Farm. It seems to compete more with Stagecoach routes to there and the college. Seeing as Stagecoach are extending the 16 to Sunnyside, we'll have two routes doing virtually the exact same thing.

It makes me wonder if Unobus can make this work when you have Stagecoach with the 8,16 and 17 which pass the Booth Lane college and also the 7 which passes near by as well but it makes me wonder why Stagecoach even bother with the service 7 as its rarely busy during the day apart from the peak times during the week with the moulton park workers.

 

[A0]

Lets hope that Stagecoach sort out the reliability of the 16 and 17 prior to them starting the route extension to Kingsthorpe otherwise they might as well not bother as its common to see at least four or five 16 and 17 buses follow each other from Weston Favell to the bus station.

To be fair to them, that usually only happens at peak hours - and that's when they're either being caught with school children in the mornings or traffic in the evenings.

Living in Billing, I quite often see 2 or 3 buses coming out of Ecton Brook together, but it is usually at peak times. During the daytime, they are quite well spaced and usually about 10 mins apart.

There's not much they can do about the traffic or school children.

Have to say, I'd have preferred the 16 and 17 to be extended to either Sixfields or Duston as it would have provided a link to the station - which would be far more useful.

Also, they need to do something to speed up journeys into town - that it takes almost 40 mins to get from Ecton Brook to town is madness.

 

[MK Tom]

Also, they need to do something to speed up journeys into town - that it takes almost 40 mins to get from Ecton Brook to town is madness.

Again this is largely the fault of the layout of the town and the poor and over capacity roads. I don't know if a direct service that missed out some of the intermediate calls would be profitable, and I can't really see NBC subsidising one.

 

[overthewater]

Even more changes in Northampton:

PF0007071/197 - UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD T/A STAGECOACH MIDLANDS, UNIT 7/8, MAIN ROAD, FAR COTTON, NORTHAMPTON, NN4 8ES
Variation Accepted: Operating between Kettering and Northampton given service number 39/58 effective from 23-Jun-2013. To amend Timetable.

PF0007071/198 - UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD T/A STAGECOACH MIDLANDS, UNIT 7/8, MAIN ROAD, FAR COTTON, NORTHAMPTON, NN4 8ES
Variation Accepted: Operating between Grange Park and UCN given service number 7 effective from 23-Jun-2013. To amend Timetable.

PF0007071/218 - UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD T/A STAGECOACH MIDLANDS, UNIT 7/8, MAIN ROAD, FAR COTTON, NORTHAMPTON, NN4 8ES
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Northampton and Grange Park given service number 15 effective from 23-Jun-2013.


=====================================================================

While else where, What if the First livery was better? Here is the new livery for route X38 in Scotland:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/barberbus/8692475879/in/photostream

http://www.donaldstirling.me.uk/Fir...ebird/16359220_34WTHg#!i=2481465150&k=9FGSZ6P

Few pics... its looks so good!

 

[MK Tom]

Even more changes in Northampton:

PF0007071/197 - UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD T/A STAGECOACH MIDLANDS, UNIT 7/8, MAIN ROAD, FAR COTTON, NORTHAMPTON, NN4 8ES
Variation Accepted: Operating between Kettering and Northampton given service number 39/58 effective from 23-Jun-2013. To amend Timetable.

PF0007071/198 - UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD T/A STAGECOACH MIDLANDS, UNIT 7/8, MAIN ROAD, FAR COTTON, NORTHAMPTON, NN4 8ES
Variation Accepted: Operating between Grange Park and UCN given service number 7 effective from 23-Jun-2013. To amend Timetable.

PF0007071/218 - UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD T/A STAGECOACH MIDLANDS, UNIT 7/8, MAIN ROAD, FAR COTTON, NORTHAMPTON, NN4 8ES
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Northampton and Grange Park given service number 15 effective from 23-Jun-2013.

Do any of these have any bearing on First routes? Stagecoach to tend to mess about with their routes all the time.

Incidentally, annoyed that they put 'UCN' in their registration. It's the University of Northampton and has been for eight years. First's timetable for the 4 still calls it 'University College', which is another example of First's lack of effort in the town.

 

[sonic2009]

I thought the United Counties licence had been disbanded?

 

[markie73]

Even more changes in Northampton:

PF0007071/197 - UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD T/A STAGECOACH MIDLANDS, UNIT 7/8, MAIN ROAD, FAR COTTON, NORTHAMPTON, NN4 8ES
Variation Accepted: Operating between Kettering and Northampton given service number 39/58 effective from 23-Jun-2013. To amend Timetable.

PF0007071/198 - UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD T/A STAGECOACH MIDLANDS, UNIT 7/8, MAIN ROAD, FAR COTTON, NORTHAMPTON, NN4 8ES
Variation Accepted: Operating between Grange Park and UCN given service number 7 effective from 23-Jun-2013. To amend Timetable.

PF0007071/218 - UNITED COUNTIES OMNIBUS CO LTD T/A STAGECOACH MIDLANDS, UNIT 7/8, MAIN ROAD, FAR COTTON, NORTHAMPTON, NN4 8ES
Cancellation Accepted: Operating between Northampton and Grange Park given service number 15 effective from 23-Jun-2013.


=====================================================================

While else where, What if the First livery was better? Here is the new livery for route X38 in Scotland:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/barberbus/8692475879/in/photostream

http://www.donaldstirling.me.uk/Fir...ebird/16359220_34WTHg#!i=2481465150&k=9FGSZ6P

Few pics... its looks so good!

So Stagecoach are ditching the existing service 15 which only runs between the Bus Station and Grange Park? - then replacing it with an extension of the service 7?, this will be one hell of a route which already suffers from congestion at peak times along the Kettering Road,Moulton Park etc, I hope Stagecoach can make this work as they also have the X4 and the recently extended X7 serving Grange Park already.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To be fair to them, that usually only happens at peak hours - and that's when they're either being caught with school children in the mornings or traffic in the evenings.

Living in Billing, I quite often see 2 or 3 buses coming out of Ecton Brook together, but it is usually at peak times. During the daytime, they are quite well spaced and usually about 10 mins apart.

There's not much they can do about the traffic or school children.

Have to say, I'd have preferred the 16 and 17 to be extended to either Sixfields or Duston as it would have provided a link to the station - which would be far more useful.

Also, they need to do something to speed up journeys into town - that it takes almost 40 mins to get from Ecton Brook to town is madness.

Well I was traveling on the 16 earlier today going to Weston Favell and I counted four 16/17's going the other direction and this was at 2pm this afternoon!, I don't hold out much hope of Stagecoach intentions to operate the new service to Sunnyside every 10 minutes with this unless they use alternative buses just to operate the route between the Bus Station and Sunnyside.

Whilst on the subject of the 16/17 service I have noticed that there are fewer ALX400 Tridents on this route and more Scania E300s have Stagecoach Northants started to replace the Tridents as there does not seem to be many in the town like there used to be.

 

[ivanhoe]

What's interesting about First operations is they seem to be totally different to Stagecoach. Over 80% of Stagecoaches profits come from Bus Operations. What do they do different from First? Surely First must make the bulk of their profits from buses? One gets the impression if Stagecoach left rail operations tomorrow, they would still be very profitable.Can you say the same about First?

 

[bb21]

What's interesting about First operations is they seem to be totally different to Stagecoach. Over 80% of Stagecoaches profits come from Bus Operations. What do they do different from First? Surely First must make the bulk of their profits from buses? One gets the impression if Stagecoach left rail operations tomorrow, they would still be very profitable.Can you say the same about First?

I was reliably informed by a fellow forum member that the emphasis of Worst Group nowadays is to be a rail operator with bus operations the tag-along, completely the opposite to Stagecoach.

Souter's expertise is in bus and coach operations and that will not change. I don't really know where Worst Group's expertise is at the moment.

The sooner Worst Group leaves the bus industry the better it will be for everyone.

To answer your question: I think they will still be profitable even if they lose all their rail franchises tomorrow.

 

[MK Tom]

I was reliably informed by a fellow forum member that the emphasis of Worst Group nowadays is to be a rail operator with bus operations the tag-along, completely the opposite to Stagecoach.

Surely there's not much business sense in that, seeing as the franchise system means that a few years from now they could easily find themselves with no rail operations left?

The difference is quite simple between the two operators really. Stagecoach (and GoAhead) invest heavily, taking risks sometimes but usually getting big rewards. First (and Arriva) run the minimum service they can get a half-decent profit from. In their minds if a route starts losing money then the only direction is to cut it. Stagecoach and others like them tend to look at options for improving it to attract new passengers.

 

[tbtc]

What's interesting about First operations is they seem to be totally different to Stagecoach. Over 80% of Stagecoaches profits come from Bus Operations. What do they do different from First? Surely First must make the bulk of their profits from buses? One gets the impression if Stagecoach left rail operations tomorrow, they would still be very profitable.Can you say the same about First?

First have taken the decision that its better to cut services than to buy new buses and that its better to squeeze more money out of existing passengers than it is to compete for new ones.

Stagecoach seem to be interested in growing the business (not just growing the short term profits by sweating assets), innovating (MagicBus, MegaBus, TaxiBus, MegaTrain...) and encouraging new passengers (sending complimentary tickets to people to try to "win" new passengers).

When First do try to innovate (OverGround, Metro, Greyhound...) they don't seem to stick to things very well or to have any consistency (look at the muddle of their national numbering system or the confusion over their hybrid liveries).

With First, it seems to be a case of Ever Decreasing Circles - you look at the map of a town/city run by First and you know that over the next decade they'll have chopped most of the infrequent services, cut the Saturday frequency so it runs at a different time from the weekday one (e.g. every fifteen minutes rather than every ten midweek), cut the summer frequencies (due to staff holidays when the schools are off), cut the Monday to Friday service back to match the reduced Saturday service, put fares up over inflation... gradually letting a once-busy operation rot rather than shake it up and invest some profits in it - paying short term dividends is more important to them and they are run in a very short-term way.

 

[overthewater]

Glasgow has school holiday services. So within 5 weeks of a major shake up ... cuts....
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########;#

It never fails to improve at First Scotland East. The Falkirk depot manager has left/resigned the company, no one is sure why but I bet it's the same reason why many other decent and good people left first.

I can't see how things are going to improve now.

 

[robertclark125]

Text of the decision by the OFT to clear the Wirral operations of First by Stagecoach UK Bus

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/mergers_ea02/2013/Stagecoach-First.pdf

 

[radamfi]

Text of the decision by the OFT to clear the Wirral operations of First by Stagecoach UK Bus

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/mergers_ea02/2013/Stagecoach-First.pdf

The OFT spell 'metre' the American way (when referring to the unit of length)

 

[Deerfold]

The OFT spell 'metre' the American way (when referring to the unit of length)

They actually spell it both ways. Which isn't encouraging.

 

[overthewater]

More details about Northampton changes:

http://www.northamptonshire.gov.uk/...ansport/pubtrans/Pages/allbusTimetables2.aspx

16/17: http://www.northamptonshire.gov.uk/...ns/Documents/Bus Timetables/SM-16-Jun2013.pdf

21: uno which is Quicker!!
http://www.northamptonshire.gov.uk/...s/Documents/Bus Timetables/UNO-21-Jun2013.pdf

 

[moogal]

More details about Northampton changes:

21: uno which is Quicker!!
http://www.northamptonshire.gov.uk/...s/Documents/Bus Timetables/UNO-21-Jun2013.pdf

That's interesting - the 21 looks like a hybrid of the old NT/First services 3/7 - doing the run across from Kettering Road to the college, then down the Wellingborough Road from Weston Favell to Blackthorn.

 

[markie73]

More details about Northampton changes:

http://www.northamptonshire.gov.uk/...ansport/pubtrans/Pages/allbusTimetables2.aspx

16/17: http://www.northamptonshire.gov.uk/...ns/Documents/Bus Timetables/SM-16-Jun2013.pdf

This will give First Northampton service 4 a serious run for its money as the 16 and 17 follow a near direct service from Obelisk and Sunnyside via Kingsthorpe and back into town, I wonder if there will be any reaction from First Northampton given the frequency of the new Stagecoach service 16/17?.

 

[overthewater]

In two weeks Cumbernauld depot will close down for good, it seems the battle was lost years ago.
Thus the second final axe that we know off comes into play.

 

[MK Tom]

The new Stagecoach services to Camp Hill, Shelfleys and Kings Heath, duplicating the First routes that cease on June 6th, are now up and running. Already some passengers seem to have switched. There're some timetables and maps here - http://www.stagecoachbus.com/serviceupdatedetails.aspx?Id=7254