First Group: General Discussion

[bb21]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/73096525@N02/8623856015/
....Going by those comments I don't think you want to see it.

First ( as said in one of those comments) should have done a proper job. have a cut off point, ie 52, everything below it get nothing everything above it get overhaul, deep clean, new livery etc. It may take a few years to get around everything but it would mean passengers could tell the difference.

Is it just me or does the bus look wrong from the front? It's almost as if they only painted half of the front.

Typical WorstGroup spin. What is the point of a new lick of paint on the outside when it still sports the same tired and faded interior with barely padded seats? Passengers are not fools.

I'm sorry to say that since Giles took over the reins, I get the impression that WorstGroup have been sliding much faster towards oblivion.

 

[overthewater]

I dont think its got worse since he taken over, its just since he's taken over and tried to introduce some changes, which has not gone to plan.

Mr Blockhead spent 20 years causing trouble, I still get the feeling hes ideas are still around. Any wagers he had a say in this new livery?

 

[Ivo]

Isn't that a bit too modern considering their PVR for the whole network? I'm sure there must be older vehicles lying about still somewhere within the First empire.

You haven't had the luxury of travelling on one of those Darts. There's a reason tbtc said the following:

Don't be silly, they'd never last the journey up to Northampton

The worst buses around (and of all First buses I've been on, these are right "up" there) should be going to places that are being wound down, so give us the iffy stuff and send the real rubbish to Northampton. (Although, Northampton coming under Chelmsford now may explain this.) Oh, and while you're at it, give us our artics back! (10180-2)

How about a few "lovely" Ultralows from Northampton?, given the pending service cuts there will be a few of them looking for a new home shortly.

If they're anything like the Ultralow Scanias that used to run around Southend, you're welcome to keep them

I was in Taunton last week and I could not believe how scruffy most of the First fleet is apart from a couple of Eclipses that have been repainted in the new First livery, does anybody know if First Avon and Somerset is being wound down as well or is this part of the massive operation that First has in Bristol?

It's not. End of. Note that the whole area has been slow to implement the new livery, with most changes to date being on 05/06 -reg Darts and new arrivals.

Bristol, Somerset & Avon is effectively one entity with several internal divisions, roughly as follows: Bristol City; (most of) Bristol Country; Bath, Wells and Western Wiltshire; Weston-super-Mare; Somerset.

If anywhere gets sold, it'll be Yeovil - officially part of Hampshire (& Dorset).

 

[tbtc]

I think its got more to do with the Regional directors, nearly every part of the empire is taken a different approach. Down south its a major overhaul newer buses, new livery etc, In central Scotland its trying to overhaul but no pvp reduction, new network, but very little in the way of new livery.

This is one of the silliest things about First - they seem to have the biggest variety in local operating areas yet have the most centrally organised livery/ branding - if they treated each area properly separately (with its own identity etc) then fair enough, but the marketing people are trying to give the impression that its one big company.

 

[overthewater]

This is one of the silliest things about First - they seem to have the biggest variety in local operating areas yet have the most centrally organised livery/ branding - if they treated each area properly separately (with its own identity etc) then fair enough, but the marketing people are trying to give the impression that its one big company.

First should have tried that, National livery but with some local favour, added in somewhere. Its just rather annoying there trying to make all this fuss, and its just not showing though. Its still all confusing, some areas still painting buses into the old livery! Yes said buses are pile of crap, but still.

 

[MK Tom]

Sorry folks, another of Mutly's pictures for you to try to explain... http://www.flickr.com/photos/mutlysbusfots/8668831483/in/photostream/

 

[KendalKing]

Sorry folks, another of Mutley's pictures for you to try to explain... http://www.flickr.com/photos/mutlysbusfots/8668831483/in/photostream/

So thats three knackered buses, that have turned-up at Northampton.

The big question, is how many more knackered buses going to turn-up ?

 

[overthewater]

So thats three knackered buses, that have turned-up at Northampton.

The big question, is how many more knackered buses going to turn-up ?

So where are the current fleet heading to?

 

[MK Tom]

So thats three knackered buses, that have turned-up at Northampton.

The big question, is how many more knackered buses going to turn-up ?

I interpreted that as former Northampton vehicles on their way out... Mutly's reply to my comment doesn't leave me any the wiser!

 

[markie73]

So thats three knackered buses, that have turned-up at Northampton.

The big question, is how many more knackered buses going to turn-up ?

Looks this bunch are on their way out of northampton to me.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So thats three knackered buses, that have turned-up at Northampton.

The big question, is how many more knackered buses going to turn-up ?

No idea but it will be interesting to see what turns up in the next month or so but even more interesting to see what they get rid of.

 

[F Great Eastern]

It appears the decision to scrap the Aircoach Ballsbridge route actually happens on the 28th of April and not this weekend, it appears First, in typical First fashion, either got their dates mixed up or made a pure error.

Some more discussion in the Irish Republic here (note latest posts especially)
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056925967

 

[markie73]

Sorry folks, another of Mutly's pictures for you to try to explain... http://www.flickr.com/photos/mutlysbusfots/8668831483/in/photostream/

Both of these are now parked outside at the back of the depot, also parked in the depot earlier today was a flatbed trailer with another bus being reversed off which looked very much like a dart.

 

[KendalKing]

Looks this bunch are on their way out of northampton to me.

markie73, you had said earlier that you give them 3-months. After I posted that they be gone by Christmas.

No idea but it will be interesting to see what turns up in the next month or so but even more interesting to see what they get rid of.

I agree, the next couple of months will be very interesting.

The only reason, why I am referring the lastest arrivals at Northampton as "Knackered Buses" is because they have arrived either on the back end of a Tow Truck or Low Loader. Which in my books equals "Knackered Bus"

Another question is are these "Knackered Buses" for further service or are their for storage.

 

[markie73]

markie73, you had said earlier that you give them 3-months. After I posted that they be gone by Christmas


I agree, the next couple of months will be very interesting.

The only reason, why I am referring the lastest arrivals at Northampton as "Knackered Buses" is because they have arrived either on the back end of a Tow Truck or Low Loader. Which in my books equals "Knackered Bus"

Another question is are these "Knackered Buses" for further service or are their for storage.

I was referring to the photo of the two ultra lows being towed into Northampton on MKToms earlier posting, sorry for the confusion!.

The same two ultralows are parked outside behind the depot still minus bits a pieces so maybe they are spare parts for any that first decide to keep at Northampton?

 

[robertclark125]

http://www.oft.gov.uk/OFTwork/mergers/Mergers_Cases/2013/DiamondBus#.UXV_irWTjY8

Invitation to comment on Rotalas purchase of Redditch and Kidderminster. Date for OFT to arrive at a decision is TBC.

 

[overthewater]

Who really is going to complain about that.

I think alot of us are getting to worked up about northampton, most things outside the town still need work and its not going anywhere fast.

 

[mbonwick]

The only reason, why I am referring the lastest arrivals at Northampton as "Knackered Buses" is because they have arrived either on the back end of a Tow Truck or Low Loader. Which in my books equals "Knackered Bus"

Valid point, except for the fact that First move all their vehicles around the country on the back of a tow truck or low loader. Don't read too much into the fact that Sovereign Recovery moved them up.

 

[robertclark125]

Rotala PLC have told me they're disappointed that the OFT are looking into the takeover of Kidderminster and Redditch from First, as they say they don't believe that these areas represent a substantial part of the UK, and I agree with them.

 

[winston270twm]

Rotala PLC have told me they're disappointed that the OFT are looking into the takeover of Kidderminster and Redditch from First, as they say they don't believe that these areas represent a substantial part of the UK, and I agree with them.

Rotala should have known from the start that it was almost inevitable that the Oft would cast its eye over the deal, particularly as the Oft interveened in the agreed Stagecoach Barnstable takeover and pretty much everything else Stagecoach have bought off First.

Whilst the Kidderminster operation will not be an issue due to it facing intensive competition from EYMS owned Whittles, the Redditch takeover has left Rotala will a virtual monopoly over Redditch town services. Whilst the combined operations don't represent a substancial part of the UK, the people of Redditch have been left with little or no choice, its Rotala or alternative forms of transport. Had there been little or no risk of the Oft being interested I suspect Rotala would have already increased fares / removed overlapping services. Rotala had already cancelled its competing service 51 on the day of the takeover from First, which has halved the frequency of the 51.

 

[mbonwick]

The takeover meets the share of supply test for bus services Redditch for certain, and probably Kidderminster as well (together, the ex-First and Rotala operation make up more than 25% of the market), so the OFT are perfectly justified in investigating.

Similarly, in the eyes of the law these towns represent a 'significant part of the Uk'.

 

[Ivo]

Kiddy is probably safe, as winston270twm says. Redditch however...

Who really is going to complain about that.

You know what, I might. If only because I don't like Rotala

Rotala PLC have told me they're disappointed that the OFT are looking into the takeover of Kidderminster and Redditch from First, as they say they don't believe that these areas represent a substantial part of the UK, and I agree with them.

So? The simple fact as, Rotala + First = most of Redditch. mbonwick explains it pretty well:

The takeover meets the share of supply test for bus services Redditch for certain, and probably Kidderminster as well (together, the ex-First and Rotala operation make up more than 25% of the market), so the OFT are perfectly justified in investigating.

Similarly, in the eyes of the law these towns represent a 'significant part of the Uk'.

Rotala can complain all they like. The simple fact is that this merger is a death knell for competition in Redditch, and this is what the OFT are concerned about. They should do some background reading before jumping to conclusions about whether the OFT would intervene or not; we all thought that Barnstaple was too small, but the OFT thought otherwise...

The Redditch takeover has left Rotala will a virtual monopoly over Redditch town services. Whilst the combined operations don't represent a substancial part of the UK, the people of Redditch have been left with little or no choice, its Rotala or alternative forms of transport. Had there been little or no risk of the Oft being interested I suspect Rotala would have already increased fares / removed overlapping services. Rotala had already cancelled its competing service 51 on the day of the takeover from First, which has halved the frequency of the 51.

Isn't this last part a virtual giveaway? And, dare I say it, typical of Rotala?

 

[winston270twm]

The takeover meets the share of supply test for bus services Redditch for certain, and probably Kidderminster as well (together, the ex-First and Rotala operation make up more than 25% of the market), so the OFT are perfectly justified in investigating.

Similarly, in the eyes of the law these towns represent a 'significant part of the Uk'.

Based on turnover or total Redditch Pvr, I would have thought that Rotala's market share would be in the region of 80% + based on the fact they operate all the high frequency town services, Stagecoach, Johnsons & The Green Bus operate plus a few others operate in to Redditch, but don't provide any/compete of the town network.

As for Kidderminster I would have though market share is close to 50/50 shared with EYMS owned Whittle's
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Who really is going to complain about that.

I think some of the residents/councillors of Redditch may be willing to complain, take a look at the Diamond Buses Facebook page since the the takeover date. Rotala seem to be having numerous teething issues including the issuing/acceptance of tickets, large gaps in frequent services then 2 or 3 coming together, missing buses, buses arriving 30 mins late then arriving full to the brim, poor allocation of buses, lack of drivers etc to name but a few.......

 

[Ivo]

Did the supposed mass walkout take place in the end?

 

[winston270twm]

Did the supposed mass walkout take place in the end?

What mass walkout?

Is all I've heard is that not many ex First Redditch drivers/staff were prepared to move across with the business o join Diamond/Rotala for whatever reason

 

[Ivo]

What mass walkout?

Is all I've heard is that not many ex First Redditch drivers/staff were prepared to move across with the business o join Diamond/Rotala for whatever reason

Basically what you've just described. "Mass walkout" is not the best way of saying it, but a large number of employees would have left upon the switch - effectively a "mass walkout", no?

 

[winston270twm]

Basically what you've just described. "Mass walkout" is not the best way of saying it, but a large number of employees would have left upon the switch - effectively a "mass walkout", no?

I'd taken you saying 'mass walkout' to mean they were planning to go on strike, not that it really matters

It's interesting with all the slating First Group gets that very few of its staff wanted to transfer across to Rotala/Diamond

 

[robertclark125]

These are the initial undertakings given by Rotala PLC and Diamond bus to the OFT

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/mergers_ea02/undertakings-2013/Diamond_First_IUs.pdf

 

[overthewater]

The Next area to get a proper review is Essex:

As part of First's commitment to providing reliable and frequent journeys to our customers, changes to services in the Southend, Canvey Island, Basildon and Brentwood areas will commence from Sunday 5 May 2013. The revisions have been made not only to make a more efficient use of current services, but also to provide new bus routes for areas that weren't previously served.

The key highlights of the changes are as follows:

Increased frequency, up to every 7 to 8 minutes between Benfleet, Hadleigh and Southend via the A13 London Road

Increased frequency, up to every 7 to 8 minutes between Rayleigh and Southend via Eastwood

Increased frequency, up to every 7 to 8 minutes between Southend town centre and Southend Hospital

Increased frequency, up to every 7 to 8 minutes between Benfleet and Basildon via Pitsea and Vange

Increased frequency, up to every 10 minutes between Basildon and Wickford

Increased frequency, up to every 30 minutes between Brentwood and Chelmsford

More buses serving Laindon Station
Improved Sunday service to Southchurch

First believe that the county of Essex is growing, and an essential part of growth is an excellent transport system. As well as improving frequencies along routes, certain journeys have been re-timed to coincide with rail links at Southend, Canvey and Benfleet stations. This brings valuable links to commuters travelling to London or other parts of the county.

In addition to the increased frequency of services, significant investment has also been made in bringing new buses into our fleet. The arrival of 19 new Volvo hybrid buses at Basildon, and 24 refurbished double deckers at Hadleigh and Basildon depots in addition to other more modern vehicles, has resulted in over 40% of the fleet being replaced.

A more in depth look at each service can be found
http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/essex/travel_news/service_updates/?item=8011&conf=0

 

[Ivo]

The Next area to get a proper review is Essex

I mentioned this a few days ago (link). It is important to note that this affects the south only.

As I said there, this plan is going to fail. OK, so they're increasing the frequency on the most important corridor in all of Essex, not just the south, but so what? The 8bph they're proposing along London Road is no better than it was in pre-Metro (2003) days; in fact, it's worse! They are also abandoning several corridors, one of which (via Chalkwell station) admittedly has been dying a slow death for some time, but the others cannot be explained. They are also mixing numbers up in a way that is about as sensible as the mix-up in Portsmouth - at least there's no Zero though! - and technically breaking the Law with regards to the withdrawal of the 15. To round things off, the best thing that the Metro brought about - a through service from Woodgrange Drive to London Road - is being cut. And as for the other 8bph offering, Southend to Rayleigh, there isn't enough demand on the 25 to justify doubling its frequency, especially given it already uses full size B7s; the best way to improve that route would be to reroute it via the Airport to give Basildon a direct service, but...

Whoever planned this network needs a rethink, and fast. I am almost at the point of thinking that they have conceded defeat to Arriva in Southend and are just happy to let it reel in the dough - but considering how poor AS are, that is somewhat concerning! Indeed, just about the only good thing is that they are reinstating a full Sunday service in Southchurch (which will please my sister) - but even then, they are missing a trick or three.

In short, this review, like the one in South Hampshire, will need to be reviewed itself - and soon.

N.B.: Without telling VOSA, they have already withdrawn the 15! So imagine how I felt when, on April 3rd, I tried to use the 15A, only to be told it had been suspended for three weeks by that point...

A complaint has already been submitted, with notification of further action being considered subject to the response.

 

[overthewater]

Its hard trying to keep track of all information in this thread,

It seems First has not changed its ideas about how to operate its network, and well the so called overhaul is now going. Is there any pvp reduction?