First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

Talk has been Parts of First Edinburgh could go into the hands of Go Ahead

 

[winston270twm]

Talk has been Parts of First Edinburgh could go into the hands of Go Ahead

I'm sure they'd rather have Lothian than First's Edinburgh operations, I dare say they couldn't ever have both.

Go-ahead update the market with a pre-close trading statement in the morning, that could always reveal an new acquisition

 

[overthewater]

I'm sure they'd rather have Lothian than First's Edinburgh operations, I dare say they couldn't ever have both.

Go-ahead update the market with a pre-close trading statement in the morning, that could always reveal an new acquisition

I cant see Lothian being sold anytime soon. Go ahead could sweep in get it cheap and work its way up.

 

[winston270twm]

I cant see Lothian being sold anytime soon. Go ahead could sweep in get it cheap and work its way up.

Suppose Go-ahead or anyone else could buy First's Edinburgh operations & also add E&M Horseburgh which now have a sizeable fleet in the area

 

[overthewater]

Suppose Go-ahead or anyone else could buy First's Edinburgh operations & also add E&M Horseburgh which now have a sizeable fleet in the area

Then maybe move westwards to Lanarkshire

 

[winston270twm]

Then maybe move westwards to Lanarkshire

And further West still towards McGill's

 

[overthewater]

And further West still towards McGill's

The way Mcgills are going I bet it would be the other way around

 

[Rich McLean]

Plymouth is interesting.

A few years back, when Go-Ahead took over CityBus, a bus war started. CityBus kicked it off, when First changed the route of the 5 & 6 circular routes, and changed it to a 6. Shorltly after that, CityBus introduced a new service 5 & 5A operating the old route. A few years later, first offered a split service, service 6 doing one half, then service 7 doing the other half.

First then upped their game, introducing more routes, but they failed, and First made cutbacks.

However, the rumours are that service 3 will be cut back to 20 minute frequencies soon, due to poor usage, as CityBus service 26 runs the same route, also, Service 6 & 7 are also rumored for the chop.

Meanwhile, CityBus has taken on a new service to Ivybridge and back, running express from Marsh Mills via the A38. First are now taking a hammering up there, apart from through passengers on the X80

Go-Ahead are winning the war in Plymouth, and it won't be too long before first cut back to just offering longer distance country routes in and out of the city, serving the core routes in and out of the city. I think a Stagecach Gold style operation should be adapted for the 83/86, 93 and X80 routes with leather seat double deckers if they are to make any money

However a few of the Plymouth services are doing well, including the 1 & 1A and 2 as there is not too much competition on these routes, and service 4 serves a few area's where citybus don't

I wonder what the chances are of putting the Plymouth depot up for sale, or just scaling it back further?

 

[overthewater]

Well lets see whats in that Go-ahead update market trading statement in the morning,

 

[winston270twm]

Plymouth is interesting.

A few years back, when Go-Ahead took over CityBus, a bus war started. CityBus kicked it off, when First changed the route of the 5 & 6 circular routes, and changed it to a 6. Shorltly after that, CityBus introduced a new service 5 & 5A operating the old route. A few years later, first offered a split service, service 6 doing one half, then service 7 doing the other half.

First then upped their game, introducing more routes, but they failed, and First made cutbacks.

However, the rumours are that service 3 will be cut back to 20 minute frequencies soon, due to poor usage, as CityBus service 26 runs the same route, also, Service 6 & 7 are also rumored for the chop.

Meanwhile, CityBus has taken on a new service to Ivybridge and back, running express from Marsh Mills via the A38. First are now taking a hammering up there, apart from through passengers on the X80

Go-Ahead are winning the war in Plymouth, and it won't be too long before first cut back to just offering longer distance country routes in and out of the city, serving the core routes in and out of the city. I think a Stagecach Gold style operation should be adapted for the 83/86, 93 and X80 routes with leather seat double deckers if they are to make any money

However a few of the Plymouth services are doing well, including the 1 & 1A and 2 as there is not too much competition on these routes, and service 4 serves a few area's where citybus don't

I wonder what the chances are of putting the Plymouth depot up for sale, or just scaling it back further?

Plymouth was reportedly up for sale/sale had been agreed then the buyer pulled out, it was around the same time as the Barnstable affair, so may well have been Stagecoach. But doubt we will ever find out for sure

 

[Lewisham2221]

this is why I'm so glad I post on this forum!!! then all the mistakes get corrected

well that epically backfired!

66838, 66840 and 66851 are the other 3 still here, I think.

 

[markie73]

Noticed one of First Northampton's Scanias parked on a bay in the bus station earlier today with the First branding above the cab,doors and front taped up, don't know if this could be in preparation for something to happen or to be announced, even the driver of the First Northampton Gemini that I was on slowed down to take a look!.

 

[winston270twm]

Well lets see whats in that Go-ahead update market trading statement in the morning,

No news of any new acquisitions in Go-Ahead's trading statement, but they have said they remain on target of achieving £100 Million bus profits and are now saying 2015/2016.

 

[bb21]

cheers for those details. I have to ask, what is the oldest fleet? if its above X or Y REG, then were sitting in a chance were it could just get by, if its alot older were heading for another wigan area.

Oldest should be W-reg Volvo 3205x, etc. I have not heard of them being moved away.

 

[MCW]

66838, 66840 and 66851 are the other 3 still here, I think.

cheers mate much appreciated.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oldest should be W-reg Volvo 3205x, etc. I have not heard of them being moved away.

in leicester anyway mate...

Plus don't know if we can count it as it is a training vehicle but we still have that Volvo B10 with that NC paladin bodywork knocking about too.

Also had word that the Stagecoach Wigan excels R1LCB to R10 LCB might be withdrawn soon... hope one gets preserved, they were original Leicester buses, hence the reg of LCB! (awesome tbh)

 

[Volvodart]

http://coachandbusweek.com/2012/12/rotala-gains-11m-of-funding-from-rbs/

Rotala gains £11m of funding from RBS

Publishedecember 12th, 2012



Blue Diamond is one of several brands used by Rotala plc, which carries 35 million passengers annually

Birmingham-based Rotala Plc, has received £11m in facilities from the Royal Bank of Scotland Corporate & Institutional Banking (RBS CIB). The finance will support Rotala’s aim of continuing to grow both organically and by acquisition.

The group operates from a network of six depots across the West Midlands, North West, South West and Heathrow and carries around 35 million passengers annually under a variety of brands including Diamond Bus, Wessex Connect, Flights Hallmark and Preston Bus.

Simon Dunn, CEO of Rotala plc, said: “In the relatively short time we have been dealing with RBS they have proven themselves to be a supportive partner. The agreed suite of increased and flexible facilities will help us to deliver on our short and medium term strategic objectives, as well as allowing us to respond quickly to future opportunities.”

Ben Dawson, Structured Finance, Corporates, RBS CIB, added: “RBS is delighted to support Rotala by providing a new facility suite. This encompasses a significant increase in facilities to underpin Rotala’s growth strategy. Simon and his team have continued to deliver a strong performance, despite headwinds in the sector, and are well positioned for the future.”

 

[Ivo]

Gulp. That is all.

 

[tbtc]

http://coachandbusweek.com/2012/12/rotala-gains-11m-of-funding-from-rbs/

Rotala gains £11m of funding from RBS

If we go on the old "rule" that it costs about £1 to acquire a bus business with a turnover of £1 then what could you get for your £11 million? Is that broadly the size of Redditch? Leicester?

 

[MCW]

oh great... now Rotala are in the game.....

 

[overthewater]

SO what on earth are there buying? Of course there had to go and asked someone for the money, but does this mean there have already spoken with First?

 

[winston270twm]

If we go on the old "rule" that it costs about £1 to acquire a bus business with a turnover of £1 then what could you get for your £11 million? Is that broadly the size of Redditch? Leicester?

Stagecoach paid £12 Million for a profitable Wigan operation with 120 vehicles and a turnover of £13 Million

Rotala paid £3.2 Million for a loss making Preston Bus with 85 vehicles and a turnover of £7.75 Million

What £11 Million buys largely depends of whether vehicles are owned or leased, age of vehicles, whether premises are owned or leased, whether profitable or loss making etc......

Personally, I would have thought that Wigan or Chester would of been of more interest to Rotala, doubt they could buy Redditch due to competition concerns.

 

[overthewater]

With this news something is going to happen, and not with stagecoach

#############################################

First in Northampton:
* betting withdrawn: For it to close down,
* 5/1: For the Depot to be sold off or with Leicester - changed

Redditch and Kidderminster
No new ticket machines?

* 5/4 for a Sell off- changed

First Leicester
Fleet is 100% DDA, the network is suppose to be doing great, why waste time, money and effort on a place which does not need it? Many places higher up in this list which needs first attention. But if the above cant make the full amount then something else has to go, and what better than a smaller network which is shared with someone else?

* 11/8 : Sell Off

First Edinburgh
* Livingston 15/8:
* Musselburgh:, 11/4.
* Livingston and Muss sold off together: 13/8
* Scottish borders, Larbart Or Stirling: 25/1

First Cornwall
Its been a rather bumpy ride this year, after its gain new council work etc, but strikes and continuing loses are not helping, but who would want to buy it
Or could it just lose its council work and just stuck to its pure core work?

* 15/8 for a Sell off - Changed

First Berkshire Important facts, its first biggest profit company. The fleet is now not as bad as other place above or even below, while the routes do use older stock could it be another Wigan area? I have doubts since new stock keeps appearing and its been said NEW stock is on the way shortly which should kill off S & T reg buses. Dart 52 plate from London could be drafted in to replace older X reg darts. Unless someone else knows anything else? BUT just this week a solo was repainted in the new livery. Main reason why this is higher then Leicester? because it has older stock and will soon need replacing.

* 9/4 : Sell Off

NEW First Glasgow No2:
DO NOT GET THIS MIXED up with FiG no1 which covers must of inner Glasgow, FiG no2 cover Dumbarton, Cumbernauld, Blntyre, Overtown.

http://www.tas.uk.net/content/index.php/news/98-bimperformance2012
Biggest loss-makers - Islwyn Borough Transport (20.2%) and East London Bus & Coach (11.9%), with First following with its Devon & Cornwall company on 9.3% and Glasgow No 2 business on 7.3%.

It should be point out and made clear, Dumbarton has been give 40 brand new buses. So its Lanarkshire that the trouble, in September a number of cut backs were put in place, but a new name was introduced. but with losses like that in SUCH what should be a great bus area is strange. First has already shut North Devon down to get rid of the loses......

* Any Depot BAR Dumbarton to be sold 2/1

London Depot
Go ahead has said it would like to get increase it operations in London but could winning contract be the better option? stagecoach was also suppose to be during Dagenham depot but pulled out over the price. London depot would make a better choice to get rid as it could pull in another £10million easily

* Any London Depot 3/1


First Ipswich
Not big depot but after looking at the Fleet list and some of the recent service changes this could be classed as another underdog depot. Alot of P and R reg stock, nothing that stands out as a cash cow bar the park N ride which could be lost. How much will it cost to replace alot of the fleet even with T, X, reg which is also needed else where?

* 8/1 for a sell off - changed


Irish Aircoach
Is the network looking vulnerable at the moment? Some people seem to think so but there also the battle with the publicly owned coach company bus eireann. So there could be a possibility there too, well remember first spent €16.5M for it in 2003:

£13'399'518 just to get back what there spent. Could First get that at this moment of time? has Eire economy pick up enough? Will Bus Eireann be sold off? could first with a same amount of money make it better?

What other issues are there? Can anyone else say what there are?

* 20/1 for a sell off over the next 14 month...

Fun:
* First York: 50/1
* Aberdeen 50/1
* Manchester , Yorkshire, Glasgow No1 : 200/1[/QUOTE]
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Stagecoach paid £12 Million for a profitable Wigan operation with 120 vehicles and a turnover of £13 Million

Rotala paid £3.2 Million for a loss making Preston Bus with 85 vehicles and a turnover of £7.75 Million

What £11 Million buys largely depends of whether vehicles are owned or leased, age of vehicles, whether premises are owned or leased, whether profitable or loss making etc......

Personally, I would have thought that Wigan or Chester would of been of more interest to Rotala, doubt they could buy Redditch due to competition concerns.

My money is on Leicester OR Beeline....

 

[Ivo]

Um, no offence, but you've messed up the 2003 EUR/GBP exchange rate. Again.

 

[winston270twm]

SO what on earth are there buying? Of course there had to go and asked someone for the money, but does this mean there have already spoken with First?

Just because they have raised the £11 Million it doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to spend it all on one acquisition, it also doesn't necessarily mean they are negotiating to buy something that First is looking to sell. Rotala have been fairly quiet since buying Preston Bus in early 2011. The West Midlands based Blue & Black Diamond bus businesses are actually shrinking in size year on year, Blue Diamond have recently withdrawn a couple of commercial services against NXWM that have operated for sometime
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

http://coachandbusweek.com/2012/12/rotala-gains-11m-of-funding-from-rbs/

Rotala gains £11m of funding from RBS

Publishedecember 12th, 2012



Blue Diamond is one of several brands used by Rotala plc, which carries 35 million passengers annually

Birmingham-based Rotala Plc, has received £11m in facilities from the Royal Bank of Scotland Corporate & Institutional Banking (RBS CIB). The finance will support Rotala’s aim of continuing to grow both organically and by acquisition.

The group operates from a network of six depots across the West Midlands, North West, South West and Heathrow and carries around 35 million passengers annually under a variety of brands including Diamond Bus, Wessex Connect, Flights Hallmark and Preston Bus.

Simon Dunn, CEO of Rotala plc, said: “In the relatively short time we have been dealing with RBS they have proven themselves to be a supportive partner. The agreed suite of increased and flexible facilities will help us to deliver on our short and medium term strategic objectives, as well as allowing us to respond quickly to future opportunities.”

Ben Dawson, Structured Finance, Corporates, RBS CIB, added: “RBS is delighted to support Rotala by providing a new facility suite. This encompasses a significant increase in facilities to underpin Rotala’s growth strategy. Simon and his team have continued to deliver a strong performance, despite headwinds in the sector, and are well positioned for the future.”

It makes a change for Rotala to raise finance though a bank rather than just issue a boat load of new shares & dilute existing share holdings as they done a number of time in the past

 

[overthewater]

Um, no offence, but you've messed up the 2003 EUR/GBP exchange rate. Again.

I have gotten rid of that bit now to stop it happening agian.

Just because they have raised the £11 Million it doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to spend it all on one acquisition, it also doesn't necessarily mean they are negotiating to buy something that First is looking to sell. Rotala have been fairly quiet since buying Preston Bus in early 2011. The West Midlands based Blue & Black Diamond bus businesses are actually shrinking in size year on year, Blue Diamond have recently withdrawn a couple of commercial services against NXWM that have operated for sometime

It makes a change for Rotala to raise finance though a bank rather than just issue a boat load of new shares & dilute existing share holdings as they done a number of time in the past

the odds have to be cut just in case you could be correct there just trying to raise money for there current work load.

 

[robertclark125]

Mbonwick can also confirm the peculiar way that the acquisition of Preston Bus was funded in the first place. Seemingly it was all done against the vehicles, and thus has a higher cost ratio than the rest of Rotala.

And when you're talking about Rotalas WM operations shrinking in size, let it be remembered that preston Bus has gained LCC contracts recently from Holmeswood Coaches, but Wessex Connect lost several contracts recently, and the four ex EMH double deckers were sold outside the group. That £11 million may be for organic growth, as was stated in the press release, they are looking to grow organically. It should also disprove the theory Rotala may sell out to either Arriva or Go Ahead, as was suggested on other forums.

 

[overthewater]

if first just pulls out of Redditch, It would still require Rotala to have money to expand ?

 

[markie73]

SO what on earth are there buying? Of course there had to go and asked someone for the money, but does this mean there have already spoken with First?

..and could Leicester and Northampton be on their radar though?.:roll:

 

[winston270twm]

if first just pulls out of Redditch, It would still require Rotala to have money to expand ?

Doubt they will pull out of Redditch
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Mbonwick can also confirm the peculiar way that the acquisition of Preston Bus was funded in the first place. Seemingly it was all done against the vehicles, and thus has a higher cost ratio than the rest of Rotala.

And when you're talking about Rotalas WM operations shrinking in size, let it be remembered that preston Bus has gained LCC contracts recently from Holmeswood Coaches, but Wessex Connect lost several contracts recently, and the four ex EMH double deckers were sold outside the group. That £11 million may be for organic growth, as was stated in the press release, they are looking to grow organically. It should also disprove the theory Rotala may sell out to either Arriva or Go Ahead, as was suggested on other forums.

Flights Hallmark in B'ham also recently lost the 10 vehicle NEC shuttle bus contract run with P-reg Dart SLF's from new to Mike De Courcey with brand new Mercedes Benz Citaro's. I can still see Arriva making a move on Rotala Plc in particular for their WM bus operations, Arriva in the past 12-18 months have been expanding in the West Midlands with mainly Centro tendered routes to date, but have since acquired Midland with a number of commercial routes against NXWM. Should Arriva wish to expand its commercial network further, a faster way would be buying Rotala Plc, as I doubt they would part with the Blue & Black Diamond operations any other way.....

 

[overthewater]

This would give Arriva Preston bus, Would there want Preston?