First Group: General Discussion

[ryson357]

Um no. Lets not even get into that one. An FTR wouldn't last 2 minutes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Thanks for confirming about bridges. 28 can only justify 20 minute frequency during school holidays (mostly - but summer season too). I expect we'll see the E300s come down from Glasgow, be repainted into green and then used to replace a fair few vehicles on other routes, as well as 28. Then next year the B7s will enter service (pretty likely to be 69209/18-30, but I'm a bit surprised, as they would need yet another repaint) and push the E300s onto 28. The only other B7s that I think they could potentially get are the Hoeford ones, but I'm fairly sure that's unlikely (but would make more sense as they will need repainting too).

I think its a nice move and I think the E300s will look good in a new livery and branding for 28 (if I'm right that is).

Yes in some circumstances, but the 28 is my local route now and during the afternoons to Minehead and mornings into Taunton, before the summer (and after webberbus collapsed) the buses used to be rammed full with college students attending Huish and SCAT, workers, locals and customers travelling to Butlins (particularly on Fridays as its changeover day). Only time will tell when we hear the changes planned in October.

I agree the E300's should help the route a lot and is a good move as they provide better interiors with luggage racks and leather seating too.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Um no. Lets not even get into that one. An FTR wouldn't last 2 minutes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Thanks for confirming about bridges. 28 can only justify 20 minute frequency during school holidays (mostly - but summer season too). I expect we'll see the E300s come down from Glasgow, be repainted into green and then used to replace a fair few vehicles on other routes, as well as 28. Then next year the B7s will enter service (pretty likely to be 69209/18-30, but I'm a bit surprised, as they would need yet another repaint) and push the E300s onto 28. The only other B7s that I think they could potentially get are the Hoeford ones, but I'm fairly sure that's unlikely (but would make more sense as they will need repainting too).

I think its a nice move and I think the E300s will look good in a new livery and branding for 28 (if I'm right that is).

FSW has confirmed they're not getting any from FHD. They might end up red in Soton but I'd like to see them with Cymru; they have a few ageing B7RLEs on CC.

As for FTR, their capacity without racks is the same as an unracked e300. It is reported that 2 or 3 will get a temp reprieve on Swansea Uni routes when the new term starts; think they've done that before

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Another network review from First in the Potteries from 4 September.

Slash and burn to the Bentilee services this time.

Perhaps they may condescend to publish some timetables before the services change, unlike most of the July cutbacks where the old (obviously now incorrect) timetables are still in use.

I hope the changes are more successful than the recent cutbacks to the 21/23 group of services which resulted, I am told, in significant falls in passenger numbers, well beyond the savings realised from the service cuts.

I'm opening a sweepstake on when this once mighty operator will drop below an off-peak vehicle requirement of 100 buses. Currently 114 and due to return to 119 when the student term commences. Any takers?

 

[THarris123]

Another network review from First in the Potteries from 4 September.

Slash and burn to the Bentilee services this time.

Perhaps they may condescend to publish some timetables before the services change, unlike most of the July cutbacks where the old (obviously now incorrect) timetables are still in use.

I hope the changes are more successful than the recent cutbacks to the 21/23 group of services which resulted, I am told, in significant falls in passenger numbers, well beyond the savings realised from the service cuts.

I'm opening a sweepstake on when this once mighty operator will drop below an off-peak vehicle requirement of 100 buses. Currently 114 and due to return to 119 when the student term commences. Any takers?

I'm thinking probably Jan 2018, then 2020 when Potteries is sold.

 

[Robertj21a]

Another network review from First in the Potteries from 4 September.

Slash and burn to the Bentilee services this time.

Perhaps they may condescend to publish some timetables before the services change, unlike most of the July cutbacks where the old (obviously now incorrect) timetables are still in use.

I hope the changes are more successful than the recent cutbacks to the 21/23 group of services which resulted, I am told, in significant falls in passenger numbers, well beyond the savings realised from the service cuts.

I'm opening a sweepstake on when this once mighty operator will drop below an off-peak vehicle requirement of 100 buses. Currently 114 and due to return to 119 when the student term commences. Any takers?

Even so, it's interesting to note that few other operators are exactly rushing in to fill any gaps, or even compete on the main corridors. As far as I can see, there's only D & G making any effort in the area and they are careful with what they take on.

 

[overthewater]

https://www.firstgroup.com/potterie...hanges/new-routes-timetables-4-september-2016

A number of timetables are changing from Sunday 4 September with some routes being renumbered. Here are the details:

Services 1 & 2

Along with Service 26, these are replaced by a new Bentilee area network featuring new routes 11, 11A, 12 & 13 (see below).

Service 2A

Renumbered to Service 11

Service 3

New timetable giving more running time to improve reliability.

Services 4/4A

New timetable giving more running time to improve reliability

Service 6

New timetable. On arrival at Meir, buses will change to Route 11A. (see below)

Service 6A

New timetable.

Service 8A

New route and timetable. Buses will serve Holden Bridge, Leek New Rd, Norton Drive, Brownley Rd, Community Drive and Ford Green Road in each direction instead of Smallthorne roundabouts.

Service 11

New route from Hanley to Newcastle serving Dawlish Dr, Adderley Green, Meir Hay, Longton, Stoke and Hartshill, every 20 minutes. Along with service 11A a 10 minute frequency is maintained along Dawlish Drive.

Service 11A

New route from Hanley to Weston Coyney serving Dawlish Drive, Adderley Green, Parkhall Estate and Coalville every 20 minutes. At Coalville the bus will change to Route 6.

Service 12

New route from Hanley to Longton serving Beverley Drive, Adderley Green and Saxonfields, every 15 minutes to Adderley Green, every 30 minutes to Longton.

Service 13

New route from Hanley to Adderley Green serving Dividy Road, every 30 minutes.

Service 22

Minor changes to some early morning journeys towards Newcastle

Service 25

From 4 September the Summer timetable on Mondays to Fridays will be replaced with a Vacation timetable (every 10 mins Hanley to Newcastle, every 20 mins Newcastle to Keele), then the ‘term’ timetable will be introduced from 26 September (every 10 mins Hanley to Keele). The reduced Saturday frequency will remain (every 15 mins Hanley to Newcastle, every 30 mins Newcastle to Keele, but running every 15 minutes to Keele from 26 September during ‘terms’).

Service 26

Replaced by Services11A & 13. See above.

Service 27

Service withdrawn.

Service 28

Service withdrawn but partially replaced by Service 8A rerouted to serve Community Drive, approximately hourly between 7.30am and 7.00pm.

Service 72

Rerouted in Newcastle town to serve Merrial Street on outward journeys.

Service 97

Rerouted in Newcastle town to serve Merrial Street on outward journeys.

Service 101

New timetable to improve reliability.

 

[Robertj21a]

https://www.firstgroup.com/potterie...hanges/new-routes-timetables-4-september-2016

I hope the locals can keep up with these changes, haven't there been rather a number in recent times ?

 

[317 forever]

I'm thinking probably Jan 2018, then 2020 when Potteries is sold.

It would be a good purchase for Rotala, filling the gap between their Black Country and west Manchester operations. The StreetLites would probably be retrieved by First for use elsewhere.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I hope the locals can keep up with these changes, haven't there been rather a number in recent times ?

Far too many to keep up with. Especially when no timetables are produced. This year so far, multiple changes on; 10 January, 21 February, 19 March, 30 July, 4 September.

Constant meddling, short notice registrations, multiple registrations for the same change date, changes being implemented on dates different from the registered date, route changes not reflected on network maps or individual route maps.

I just can't work out why they are losing money (again).

 

[overthewater]

I just can't work out why they are losing money (again).

I hope thats tongue in check

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I hope thats tongue in check

The bit about 'not understanding' is, the bit about 'losing money' unfortunately not - although my informant is a well connected outsider rather than a direct company source. We shall see.

The problem, as discussed previously, is a poor product and a poor response to declining revenues. Is decline inevitable (in which case service cuts are a response) or should they invest to reverse the tide?

Tesco, as a result of their financial wobble (other retailers have similar issues) cut investment in new stores, cut 24 hour opening at others, and probably cut investment in refurbishing existing stores, but know that they must continue to offer an attractive proposition to their customers if they are to be retained.

Travelodge had a bit of a financial wobble a few years ago, cut investment/refurbishment in their hotels (alongside some very low room rates), as a result people started complaining about the shabby state of rooms so they had to announce (and implement) a major refurbishment programme.

The product offered by First, in the potteries certainly, has been declining since 2002/2003 (Overground network launch and Traffic Commissioner inquiry) and had become very shabby. The result, some investment in new vehicles, some internal transfers of recent stock, but mostly swingeing service cuts. To many people, myself included, the service is no longer attractive, it does not meet my travel needs. They can cut fares as much as they like, they can even pay me to travel on their buses but if I no longer have a service to travel on nothing is going to attract me back!

 

[ChrisPJ]

Why does it seem investment at First is always in response to a crisis situation ?

 

[Robertj21a]

The problem, as discussed previously, is a poor product and a poor response to declining revenues. Is decline inevitable (in which case service cuts are a response) or should they invest to reverse the tide?



T

It's difficult to recall many initiatives by First Bus (anywhere) to invest and grow the business. As has been evidenced before, they have had a few possibly bright ideas along the way but they seem to lose interest very quickly and let them whither away. If this had been Stagecoach they would have first brought in a range of measures that have proven successful elsewhere - I suppose that First haven't really got much experience of that approach (or simply can't bring themselves to just copy a competitor).

Of course, we shouldn't forget that First Group is also still in a terrible financial position - after countless years.

 

[F Great Eastern]

They've gone too much on the defensive in Dublin as well recently, they've become very conservative with the orders which most people expect to bite them on the ass in the next few months which is going to leave them vulnerable.

The problem in Dublin was for years they were too ambitious, but now from a vehicle point of view they are going very defensive and there is widespread belief in the industry in Ireland that operators think they are ripe for the picking over the next 12 months.

I don't have time to go into it, but they are in market leading positions on one corridor and close to being the same on a second, however they are resting on their laurals at the moment and refuse to order the higher capacity, higher spec vehicles they need which is eventually going to leave them exposed.

They are toning down the spec of the vehicles with growing passenger numbers, whilst the competition do the reverse. In the short term it will bring financial reward but long term they leave themselves exposed to competitiors.

 

[Y961 XBU]

First Manchesters X35 is no longer for the chop, 2 trips each way will remain, Timetable here

https://www.firstgroup.com/greater-...ice=X35&routeid=3263851&operator=11&source=sp

 

[Bungle965]

First Manchesters X35 is no longer for the chop, 2 trips each way will remain, Timetable here

https://www.firstgroup.com/greater-...ice=X35&routeid=3263851&operator=11&source=sp

Good News!
Sam

 

[Simon75]

Another network review from First in the Potteries from 4 September.

Slash and burn to the Bentilee services this time.

Perhaps they may condescend to publish some timetables before the services change, unlike most of the July cutbacks where the old (obviously now incorrect) timetables are still in use.

I hope the changes are more successful than the recent cutbacks to the 21/23 group of services which resulted, I am told, in significant falls in passenger numbers, well beyond the savings realised from the service cuts.

I'm opening a sweepstake on when this once mighty operator will drop below an off-peak vehicle requirement of 100 buses. Currently 114 and due to return to 119 when the student term commences. Any takers?

Residents in Bentilee are lucky as they have services start from around 5am and last bus from Hanley around 0.45 , as it near Adderley Green Garage, and make use of buses that could have run empty to/from Hanley

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A bit of positive PR with First showcasing their latest (ish) vehicles

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37158521

Comparison trials at Millbrook with First Leicester Streetdeck 35190 and First Bristol e400mmc 33953

 

[freetoview33]

A bit of positive PR with First showcasing their latest (ish) vehicles

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-37158521

Comparison trials at Millbrook with First Leicester Streetdeck 35190 and First Bristol e400mmc 33953

was just going to say that!

 

[THarris123]

With B7Ls heading up to Bradford, do we know what they're replacing?

 

[Volvodart]

With B7Ls heading up to Bradford, do we know what they're replacing?

The FirstBus Enthusiasts facebook group reported a while ago that it was Solos at Bradford and others temporary use at Hunslet pending new buses in 2017.

 

[d1672]

Hi,
I have been told that there are to be more service revisions in Glasgow soon. I was told at the Stagecoach Cumbernauld open day on Sunday. And I believe that there has been an article in the Glasgow Evening Times on Monday or Tuesday about service cuts.

Thomas

 

[overthewater]

Its not really cuts, full details are on the website with timetables. Glasgow Evening times are marking a storm in a teacup over these minor changes,

 

[DunsBus]

Its not really cuts, full details are on the website with timetables. Glasgow Evening times are marking a storm in a teacup over these minor changes,

The Evening Times takes any opportunity that it can to stick the boot into First. I've got the impression over the years it simply hates First, full stop - and maybe that is indeed the case.

Incidentally I see the 9 is to be cut again in Paisley and will go no further west than the High Street, the Paisley West End - Linwood - East Fulton section having gone a couple of years ago. It can surely now only be a matter of time before First pull out of Paisley completely as the 9 is the only route that they run to there.

 

[overthewater]

The Evening Times takes any opportunity that it can to stick the boot into First. I've got the impression over the years it simply hates First, full stop - and maybe that is indeed the case.

Incidentally I see the 9 is to be cut again in Paisley and will go no further west than the High Street, the Paisley West End - Linwood - East Fulton section having gone a couple of years ago. It can surely now only be a matter of time before First pull out of Paisley completely as the 9 is the only route that they run to there.

I cant see First pulling out of Paisley just helps tick alot of boxes.

Full list can be seen here:
https://www.firstgroup.com/greater-...es/planned-changes/23-october-service-changes


TO keep things simple here are the changes the paper is moaning about:

I can see them just extending the No4 every30mins up to Kevindale on a use it or lose type thing.

4/4A Newton Mearns/Eaglesham - Broomhill
Revised route and timetable introduced.
Service 4/4A will be revised to operate between Newton Mearns/Eaglesham - City Centre - Broomhill. The timetable will be revised but the current frequency over this section of route will remain.
Change of route in Newton Mearns area - Buses will now terminate at Newton Mearns Shopping Centre and will no longer serve Crookfur. Service 38 will continue to serve Crookfur on the current route and timeable.
Change of route in Eaglesham Area - On journeys to Eaglesham buses will now operate via the same route as buses currently follow from Eaglesham direct via Gilmour Street. As a result, Polnoon Street and Montgomery Street will no longer be served.

Change of route in Knightswood/Jordanhil Area - All journeys on service 4/4A will now terminate at current Broomhill terminus. The section of route between Knightswood, Lincoln Avenue and Jordanhill will be replaced by new service X4 (see X4 section for full details).
Change of route in Kelvindale Area - Service 4A will terminate at Broomhill and as a result will no longer serve Kelvindale, Anniesland and Knightswood. New service M4 will replace the section of route between Kelvindale and Anniesland during Monday to Saturday daytime (see M4 section for full details).

M4 Kelvindale - Anniesland
New service linking Kelvindale and Anniesland.
This new service will be introduced to replace service 4A between Kelvindale and Anniesland. Buses will operate every 30 minutes Monday to Saturday mainday.

X4 Knightswood - City Centre Express
New City Centre Express service for Knightswood and Jordanhill cutting journey time by 15 minutes.

This new service will replace current service 4 in the Knightswood and Jordanhill area. Operating up to every 20 minutes, service X4 will provide a fast and direct journey into the City Centre via Clydeside Expressway.

 

[DunsBus]

I cant see First pulling out of Paisley just helps tick alot of boxes. .

Maybe, but buses don't run in order to tick boxes - they run in order to make money, and if they don't make money then they come off! :roll:

SBL as was had quite a significant presence in Paisley back in the early 1990s, including a network of Wee Happy Buses minibus services. This presence was lessened a bit after the route swaps with Clydeside 2000 in late-1993, but was still sizeable. Now SBL's successor First has only the 9 and N9 serving Paisley and from 23rd October the 9 will only go as far as the town centre before returning to Glasgow, having at one time run through to East Fulton. A lone First route in a locality served by McGills surely cannot be viable in the long run and I suspect McGills will be waiting in the wings to swoop if First do decide to pull out of Paisley. The gradual pruning back of the 9's western terminus over the last few years suggests that a complete First withdrawal from the area cannot be far off.

 

[overthewater]

Maybe, but buses don't run in order to tick boxes - they run in order to make money, and if they don't make money then they come off! :roll:.

Not if you want to keep certain bodies away from your door. IF first pulls out and then Mcgills swoops in, someone will be asked questions

 

[Robertj21a]

Not if you want to keep certain bodies away from your door. IF first pulls out and then Mcgills swoops in, someone will be asked questions

Why should McGills 'swoop in' ? - they already run most of the routes in the area, including a trunk route to Glasgow. Can't see that they would need to do much to replace the First 9.

 

[overthewater]

Why should McGills 'swoop in' ? - they already run most of the routes in the area, including a trunk route to Glasgow. Can't see that they would need to do much to replace the First 9.

Lothian buses swooped in to East Lothian and the depots because first waved bye bye, and now there getting investigated by the CMA.

Do you really believe CMA wont take an interest in the area?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Lothian buses swooped in to East Lothian and the depots because first waved bye bye, and now there getting investigated by the CMA.

Do you really believe CMA wont take an interest in the area?

The two things are completely different. Selling two depots and TUPEing the drivers across is one thing. Withdrawing one service will not be an issue for First.