First Group: General Discussion

[pompeyfan]

FSW, could you just confirm (if known) where the B7s out of Hoeford are going? I was told 69537-39 were to stay at Hoeford, with the rest going to Weymouth and Southampton. Also are there any plans to replace the w Reg ELC tridents at Hoeford?

 

[tbtc]

So what do you suggest, remove B10BLEs and the like from service and replace them with articulated buses that may not be compatible with depots, bus stations and whatever else, that do about 4mpg and require a two-person crew? I can see that doing wonders for economics of individual routes.

What do I suggest?

I suggest not buying such unusual "flagship" vehicles unless you are committed to using them for the long term.

Same goes for the "NBfL" - fair enough if TfL are going to run them for fifteen/twenty years, but completely impractical to cascade to "the provinces" (which has generally been the fate for hundreds of Tridents and other ex-London vehicles).

You'd have thought that First would have learnt a lesson, given the money they spent on their first generation of "bendi" buses - the B10LAs (?) - they were generally withdrawn from active service after only a "half life". Fine for a flagship route like the 1 in Leeds, but hard to cascade to secondary services.

Maybe by 2020, someone at First HQ will come up with another wacky zany proposal for a new type of eye-catching vehicle that looks great on day one but isn't fit for service after five/ten years, and we can repeat the process for a third time.

That's only a presumption!

Hence my use of "may".

But what realistic future do these expensive modern vehicles have?

This Forum is very good at finding "solutions" to obsolete rolling stock on the railways (turning HSTs into freight locomotives, using 442s as unpowered carriages etc), but even here suggestions for "ftr" are thin on the ground.

 

[overthewater]

IN better news:

High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3238234c-4e90-11e6-88c5-db83e98a590a.html#ixzz4F9PQY57P

FirstGroup is to become the first UK bus and rail operator to run a US passenger rail operation after the company won a contract to run services on the outskirts of Dallas in Texas.
FirstGroup said on Wednesday it would start operating the “A-train” commuter service between Denton and Lewisville in suburban Dallas from October. The contract runs for nine years, with an option to extend for a further five.


The contract, which is expected to bring in only about $9m revenue per year, is more significant for its symbolic value than its financial rewards. While the UK’s listed bus and rail operators — which include Stagecoach, Go-Ahead and National Express — all have some US bus operations, none has previously won a rail contract.
Henry Posner, a Pittsburgh-based investor, said US public bodies were putting more and more commuter rail operations out to competitive tendering, to ensure value for money.
“I’ve felt for a long time that the logical operators of rail services by the private sector are likely to be European companies.”
The contract was awarded to FirstGroup by the Denton County Transportation Authority, for which the UK company already runs certain bus services.
The deal is unusual in that it has been awarded to a company without any links to public bodies.
Most US commuter rail operations are still run by local governments or publicly owned transit agencies.
In 2014, France’s Keolis was awarded an eight-year contract to operate commuter rail services around Boston, but the company is a spin-off from SNCF, France’s state-owned train operator.
Many other suburban rail services in the US previously run by public agencies are now operated by Transdev, which is majority owned by Caisse des Dépôts, France’s state-owned savings bank.
“This is a true, private sector company,” said Mr Posner, referring to FirstGroup. “This is a big deal, even though it’s a relatively small operation.”

FirstGroup said rail in the US was a new opportunity the company was “very pleased” to win and aimed to build on.
“This contract is an ideal opportunity to operate an entire commuter railway in the US, providing an excellent entry point,” it added.
FirstGroup’s US operations include the famous Greyhound long-distance coach operations, as well as extensive local and school bus operations.
Tim O’Toole, FirstGroup’s chief executive, was the last top manager of Conrail, a US rail freight operator, before it was taken over and split between Norfolk Southern in 1998.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

The potential Glasgow strike has been averted...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-36870240

The prospect of strike action by First Glasgow bus drivers has been averted after talks.

The Unite union had held a consultative ballot of members in a dispute over staff numbers, rates, promotion and training.

But "positive" negotiations between First Glasgow and the union have now taken place.

The union said the dialogue meant it was halting any moves to an official industrial action ballot.

Unite regional officer Wendy Dunsmore said: "Following drivers making their views absolutely clear with last week's emphatic ballot result, meaningful dialogue has now taken place and both First Glasgow and Unite are determined to seek a satisfactory outcome.

"The current positive dialogue means that we will be halting any moves to an official industrial action ballot."

A First Bus spokesman said: "The basis for the surprise ballot was unclear as talks were already scheduled on a small number of topics, and these went ahead as planned.

"However, we are pleased nonetheless that threat of unnecessary industrial action to the detriment of our customers has now been lifted."

 

[the101]

The potential Glasgow strike has been averted...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-36870240

The Leeds strike has also been averted with a new pay offer, which is to be balloted w/c 8 August.

 

[FSW Official]

FSW, could you just confirm (if known) where the B7s out of Hoeford are going? I was told 69537-39 were to stay at Hoeford, with the rest going to Weymouth and Southampton. Also are there any plans to replace the w Reg ELC tridents at Hoeford?

I wouldn't know. Not South West though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What do I suggest?

I suggest not buying such unusual "flagship" vehicles unless you are committed to using them for the long term.

Same goes for the "NBfL" - fair enough if TfL are going to run them for fifteen/twenty years, but completely impractical to cascade to "the provinces" (which has generally been the fate for hundreds of Tridents and other ex-London vehicles).

You'd have thought that First would have learnt a lesson, given the money they spent on their first generation of "bendi" buses - the B10LAs (?) - they were generally withdrawn from active service after only a "half life". Fine for a flagship route like the 1 in Leeds, but hard to cascade to secondary services.

Maybe by 2020, someone at First HQ will come up with another wacky zany proposal for a new type of eye-catching vehicle that looks great on day one but isn't fit for service after five/ten years, and we can repeat the process for a third time.



Hence my use of "may".

But what realistic future do these expensive modern vehicles have?

This Forum is very good at finding "solutions" to obsolete rolling stock on the railways (turning HSTs into freight locomotives, using 442s as unpowered carriages etc), but even here suggestions for "ftr" are thin on the ground.

It's not my place to defend or criticise the decision makers of a decade ago, although they were at least committed to trying radical initiatives to take their business forward. Innovation is necessary but risky by its very nature.
I know of potential uses lined up for a fair number, but the detail is commercially sensitive at this stage.

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Apparently Somerset is in line to get the old Glasgow Airport Express E300's. I thought they would have stayed in Glasgow or at best going to FSE...

 

[THarris123]

Apparently Somerset is in line to get the old Glasgow Airport Express E300's. I thought they would have stayed in Glasgow or at best going to FSE...

Whats replacing the E300s in Glasgow?

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Whats replacing the E300s in Glasgow?

Glasgow have received 10 new E200MMC's for the Airport Express service...

 

[THarris123]

Glasgow have received 10 new E200MMC's for the Airport Express service...

Has it already received them?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Has it already received them?

Believe they've just entered service as from 21st July https://www.flickr.com/photos/12946...8gK-Anhh9g-BhSDMj-BgXzBV-BeDwiE-Bk8rEk-H3L98r

 

[Simon75]

Whats happing to First Potteries. more cutbacks starting this week ?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Whats happing to First Potteries. more cutbacks starting this week ?

A number of timetables will be changing from Sunday 24 July, mainly to reflect the reduced demand for travel during the six weeks' school holiday.

• New summer timetables for Services 1, 2 & 25
• New Saturday timetables for Services 5, 8/8A, 98 & 99
• Temporary summer Saturday timetables for Services 3, 4/4A & 32/32A

 

[Andyh82]

Rumour has it that First WY withdrew all its last remaining Alexander Royales on Friday.

Various cascades and introduction of new buses are ongoing meaning they won't be required again come September.

 

[Strathclyder]

Believe they've just entered service as from 21st July https://www.flickr.com/photos/12946...8gK-Anhh9g-BhSDMj-BgXzBV-BeDwiE-Bk8rEk-H3L98r

Was wondering why this image had gotten so many views lol

To be honest, I was half-expecting the E300s to be transferred elsewhere, but we really could have done with keeping them. Could have been used to replace the worst of the B7Ls, but alas, it wasn't to be...

 

[Haig paxton]

Let us not forget the failed Yellow School Bus flops

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Was wondering why this image had gotten so many views lol

To be honest, I was half-expecting the E300s to be transferred elsewhere, but we really could have done with keeping them. Could have been used to replace the worst of the B7Ls, but alas, it wasn't to be...

Glad to drive some traffic to your photo

Appreciate that you might have wanted to replace the B7Ls but BoS have nothing newer than 58 plates (aside from some hired fleet after WB's demise and the Taunton P&R) so I guess their need is pressing.

The trunk 28 service to Minehead is supposed to be operated by 11 year old B7RLEs though you often get older B6LEs, B7Ls and B10BLEs. Therefore, it's probably fair enough to get something a bit newer on there.
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Let us not forget the failed Yellow School Bus flops

If we looked at the poor management decisions of the Blockhead era, we'd need another forum not merely a separate thread.

FTR, YSB, Greyhound UK are all relatively straightforward examples but nothing compared to some of the more fundamental errors

 

[overthewater]

If we looked at the poor management decisions of the Blockhead era, we'd need another forum not merely a separate thread.

FTR, YSB, Greyhound UK are all relatively straightforward examples but nothing compared to some of the more fundamental errors

Thats whats so annoying, there had some good ideas, but unlike Stagecoach there dont seem to care after a few months, and expect every idea to work within mins of the idea starting.

Some of Stagecoach's ideas can take a year to work but there keep an close on on them. To be fair some of Stagecoach ideas have failed but there get very useful data from them, like the yellow taxi bus or certain Night sleepers.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thats whats so annoying, there had some good ideas, but unlike Stagecoach there dont seem to care after a few months, and expect every idea to work within mins of the idea starting.

Some of Stagecoach's ideas can take a year to work but there keep an close on on them. To be fair some of Stagecoach ideas have failed but there get very useful data from them, like the yellow taxi bus or certain Night sleepers.

Greyhound was a daft idea - coach travel is highly price sensitive so you have the same cost base (driver, coach, fuel) yet only 3/4 of the usual capacity yet little scope to recoup through premium pricing

YSB - brand new fleet and associated depreciation vs. using older fully depreciated stock

FTR - a bus that requires a two person crew for the same capacity as a standard single decker and a horrific MPG. Really?

 

[overthewater]

Greyhound was for high class travel just like Megabus Gold, which is still running about.

YSB should have been used on selective routes

FTR, it was ahead of its time, and would have worked well on cashless operation like the current London network.

With those E300 from Glasgow going to Somerset, I hope there get those extended racks out and new seating put in.

 

[Volvodart]

With those E300 from Glasgow going to Somerset, I hope there get those extended racks out and new seating put in.

I thought the racks were one of the reasons they were going there!

 

[overthewater]

I thought the racks were one of the reasons they were going there!

Is there alot of all the holiday camps along its route?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is there alot of all the holiday camps along its route?

No - it terminates at the very large Butlins in Minehead! There are a few small places but it's Butlins that dictates that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Greyhound was for high class travel just like Megabus Gold, which is still running about.

YSB should have been used on selective routes

FTR, it was ahead of its time, and would have worked well on cashless operation like the current London network.

With those E300 from Glasgow going to Somerset, I hope there get those extended racks out and new seating put in.

Greyhound may have wished to have been for high class travel. However, it was competing with NatEx from the South Coast to London who had the same cost base but another 8 seats' worth of revenue (and so could actually afford to reduce their fares in comparison with NatEx). They could've tried to charge the premium price but then they would be little better than the train yet slower. A fundamentally flawed business model and, let us not forget, that Megabus Gold is also substantially smaller than it initially started out.

The FTR may work with a cashless world but it wasn't conceived in that way and we still don't have one now.

YSB's were used on selected routes which is why only certain OpCos had them. However, that only works if local authorities and other tendering parties are prepared to accept the additional cost associated with them. However, given that most are happy to have a 1987 Van Hool with seat belts and a dateless plate, it is something that most didn't go for and just meant an erosion of margin.

 

[ryson357]

Is there alot of all the holiday camps along its route?

Butlins is the main destination, though there are other holiday outlets along the route at Doniford (near Watchet), Blue Anchor and Dunster. There are plenty of tourists that use the route too as well a popular local route, I'm hoping with the October changes the frequency would be improved to every 20 minutes rather than 30 as many journeys are very full and in some circumstances people have been left behind!

 

[overthewater]

Butlins is the main destination, though there are other holiday outlets along the route at Doniford (near Watchet), Blue Anchor and Dunster. There are plenty of tourists that use the route too as well a popular local route, I'm hoping with the October changes the frequency would be improved to every 20 minutes rather than 30 as many journeys are very full and in some circumstances people have been left behind!

The route would be better of with Deckers then not 38 seater E300.

 

[THarris123]

The route would be better of with Deckers then not 38 seater E300.

I thought there was a low bridge somewhere along the route?
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If my calculations are correct 10 vehicles could do 28 at every 20 mins. I would assume that 67600 would then act as a spare for the route too.

Maybe we'll see green E300s with branding for 28?
PVR of 28 currently is 7.

 

[ryson357]

The route would be better of with Deckers then not 38 seater E300.

There are a few low bridges along the route, first one at Taunton Train station, two near Combe Florey (near Bishops Lydeard) and another before you get into Williton. Due to that double decker a cant be used on the routes, if the bridges weren't there then double deckers would suit the route better.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought there was a low bridge somewhere along the route?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If my calculations are correct 10 vehicles could do 28 at every 20 mins. I would assume that 67600 would then act as a spare for the route too.

Maybe we'll see green E300s with branding for 28?
PVR of 28 currently is 7.

Yeah I think the 28 can definitely justify a 20 minute frequency as the current 30 minute frequency sees overcrowding frequently. Yeah the 10 E300's would be enough with 67600 too.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There are a few low bridges along the route, first one at Taunton Train station, two near Combe Florey (near Bishops Lydeard) and another before you get into Williton. Due to that double decker a cant be used on the routes, if the bridges weren't there then double deckers would suit the route better.
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Yeah I think the 28 can definitely justify a 20 minute frequency as the current 30 minute frequency sees overcrowding frequently. Yeah the 10 E300's would be enough with 67600 too.

BoS have looked at it before and employed the X28 too. I seem to recall that whilst there is some peakiness in volume, it tends to be on change days at Butlins and that the most cost effective way is usually to duplicate those journeys? Sure I read it somewhere :roll:

The low bridges are signed at 13'8. Crucially, that was the same height as a VR (but of course, there's a margin built in as well. So the 28 was operated by deckers regularly

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ridgw...xiX-J8ipvF-GSWsse-zeJGVb-G5iqoL-H3cBBL-G5iqG1

https://www.flickr.com/photos/yerrt...xiX-J8ipvF-GSWsse-zeJGVb-G5iqoL-H3cBBL-G5iqG1

Don't think there's anything low enough now??

Also, appreciate that summer is busy but remember that it is very seasonal. Prior to Webberbus, the service was only half hourly to BL and hourly to Minehead and it was operated by Darts (though latterly B10BLEs). In fact, it had SN's only new full size buses for Somerset for some years with these three babies (of which they all ended up in Bristol)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/51738...tgH-bxBDFx-bEmH2R-nropxr-jMHwYk-aMiRu6-r8cPsW
https://www.flickr.com/photos/51738...ist-8zz1jv-nFQ5Fb-oK3w3Z-pMEZnG-5Sn9nL-aC8kXL
https://www.flickr.com/photos/22455...4Jp-dfyahV-isVWD5-DZ4BNx-oKhsWw-oKiLAk-dy97cw

 

[overthewater]

Maybe the no28 could use the FTR

 

[THarris123]

Maybe the no28 could use the FTR

Um no. Lets not even get into that one. An FTR wouldn't last 2 minutes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are a few low bridges along the route, first one at Taunton Train station, two near Combe Florey (near Bishops Lydeard) and another before you get into Williton. Due to that double decker a cant be used on the routes, if the bridges weren't there then double deckers would suit the route better.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yeah I think the 28 can definitely justify a 20 minute frequency as the current 30 minute frequency sees overcrowding frequently. Yeah the 10 E300's would be enough with 67600 too.

Thanks for confirming about bridges. 28 can only justify 20 minute frequency during school holidays (mostly - but summer season too). I expect we'll see the E300s come down from Glasgow, be repainted into green and then used to replace a fair few vehicles on other routes, as well as 28. Then next year the B7s will enter service (pretty likely to be 69209/18-30, but I'm a bit surprised, as they would need yet another repaint) and push the E300s onto 28. The only other B7s that I think they could potentially get are the Hoeford ones, but I'm fairly sure that's unlikely (but would make more sense as they will need repainting too).

I think its a nice move and I think the E300s will look good in a new livery and branding for 28 (if I'm right that is).