First application for Edinburgh to London Open Access service

[freetoview33]

Surely they would use the 5 Class 180 still at First Great Western? As they are not planned to be used once the IEP comes in.

I think the ECML is in a mess with multiple operators and still quite a shocking timetable!

 

[Rick1984]

From a personal view I'd have the stops Edinburgh, Newcastle, York and Peterborough.

I'm suprised not all trains stop at the last, but realise could be capacity related or the connections aren't as important as I find them.

 

[Carlisle]

Think they are missing a trick not adding a business zone like Chiltern mainline with every seat having a oversized table and free wifi.. .

According to their press release free wifi will be available to all passangers

 

[Stats]

But isn't this service pretty much specified by the DfT. I mean, it was in the ITT that one fast path per hour must be left between Edinburgh and London for an OAO. This surely means that it's more than just an attempt at revenue abstraction.

The ITT didn't say that a path must be left for an OAO. The key word in the paragraph swt_passenger quoted was contingency, I.e. a back up plan should an OAO get a path.
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Morpeth is a small town. It's not going to grow that much in the next five years.

Its South East Northumberland They are looking at not just Morpeth. If the Government genuinely want to encourage regeneration of the north's economy then they should be supportive of this proposal for an area that has lost its major employer in the last few years and is in need of regeneration
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Surely they would use the 5 Class 180 still at First Great Western? As they are not planned to be used once the IEP comes in.

The GW 180s are spoken for , being leased to Grand Central from 2017.

 

[Marton]

Morpeth may not be big but it is underserved.

The fact that there is a tight curve and speed restriction also means less time lost than the other stops would.

Will they seek to use the York avoiding line? Quicker than the risk of being held up in the station?

 

[route:oxford]

I don't think the rules permit this. As I recall, Open Access Operators are obliged to follow the TSA and accept normal tickets, including all ANY PERMITTED-routed tickets for the routes they travel on.

There is a fairly recent historical precedent for single operator tickets on the ECML from Edinburgh.

The near empty Eurostar Connect services that operated down the ECML to Waterloo were excluisvely for the use of Eurostar ticket holders.

It would be particularly convenient (for me) if the service were to stop at whichever station that the E-W link service will eventually reach on the ECML. Or even, using the IC paths on the E-W link, for two 5-car trains to meet at this station then continue as a 10-car formation to Edinburgh. One path, two new opportunities. (Vice-versa for the return journey)

If this is truly designed to compete with the airlines, then I'd be happy if it were to have similar cabin baggage restrictions as the airlines too. I know that many enthusiasts go on and on about the convenience of being able to carry more luggage by train - but hell, too many people carry more luggage on the train than they can possibly manage themselves.

 

[Aictos]

Or lease / buy the spare IC225 sets when VTEC don't want them any more, since the start date is in 2020?

If it where single class then I can see a premier / super 1st class style service being offered by 1st Group, as there will be plenty of Mk.4s to choose from, we could end up with two restaurant cars, with the remainder refurbished to 1st class only and run as a Pullman service, possibly top and tailed by Class 91s and up to 11 carriages long?

I disagree slightly, I thinks you're missing a trick about lack of a DVT being used here that would be handy for the amount of luggage used on Anglo Scottish trains.

 

[thetangoman]

Surely they would use the 5 Class 180 still at First Great Western? As they are not planned to be used once the IEP comes in.

I think the ECML is in a mess with multiple operators and still quite a shocking timetable!

It does state that they are going to use ELECTRIC 125mph units

 

[Mikey C]

Or lease / buy the spare IC225 sets when VTEC don't want them any more, since the start date is in 2020?

If it where single class then I can see a premier / super 1st class style service being offered by 1st Group, as there will be plenty of Mk.4s to choose from, we could end up with two restaurant cars, with the remainder refurbished to 1st class only and run as a Pullman service, possibly top and tailed by Class 91s and up to 11 carriages long?

The quote from First says

brand new, state of the art rolling stock comparable to other trains being introduced on the route

which implies something similar to the Class 801s.

 

[Failed Unit]

If the want to compete with air, why not run it to Stirling. (Or somewhere theycan stop at Edinburgh Park). However replacing a "Dunblane" stopper would be welcome, shame they won't be running scotrail by then.

 

[Stats]

which implies something similar to the Class 801s.

Not just implies it, but the application explicity states

The Specified Equipment is subject to procurement, however, the performance characteristics will as a minimum match the new IEP Class 800/801 trains. The new trains will be electric only, will have 5 coaches (each up to 26m in length) and will be able to run in multiple formation.

 

[IanXC]

These new units will (if they go ahead) presumably be for delivery at about the same time as Hull Trains EMUs? Might make that order more viable and give both operations a larger pool of units to work from, with the additional resilience that brings.

 

[BrianTheLion]

Im not sure why Morpeth is even in the equation. It's twice the distance to the Airport from Morpeth as it is from the City Centre?

 

[najaB]

Im not sure why Morpeth is even in the equation. It's twice the distance to the Airport from Morpeth as it is from the City Centre?

It doesn't make sense to me either, but apparently it does to someone at First HQ.

 

[The Ham]

Think they are missing a trick not adding a business zone like Chiltern mainline with every seat having a oversized table and free wifi.. Surely most people flying will be for business or connecting flight and I cant see people connecting dragging there luggage on the underground to get to Heathrow so logically you aim to tap into the business market.

Given that it is a single class, they could call it "business class" which would also stop people with standard or first class tickets from using it (potentially getting around the issue of eroding income from stations shared with VTEC).

 

[185]

Given the DfT / ORR rejected the Platinum Trains bid of 2008, on the primary basis of no available spare paths on the East Coast - surely with no substantial infrastructure changes to increase capacity, this bid should will have to also be rejected otherwise it would create a legal window for the Platinum Trains party to cry foul play.

 

[route:oxford]

Given the DfT / ORR rejected the Platinum Trains bid of 2008, on the primary basis of no available spare paths on the East Coast - surely with no substantial infrastructure changes to increase capacity, this bid should will have to also be rejected otherwise it would create a legal window for the Platinum Trains party to cry foul play.

Seven years have past and the timetable recast with this in mind.

 

[Oliver]

It doesn't make sense to me either, but apparently it does to someone at First HQ.

If you think of Morpeth as "Newcastle Parkway" for people living in towns north of Newcastle it could make sense.

 

[Failed Unit]

Given the DfT / ORR rejected the Platinum Trains bid of 2008, on the primary basis of no available spare paths on the East Coast - surely with no substantial infrastructure changes to increase capacity, this bid should will have to also be rejected otherwise it would create a legal window for the Platinum Trains party to cry foul play.

A few upgrades since then taking frieght of the line. Hopefully they have released some paths.

Hitchin flyover
Joint line upgrade
Doncaster North flyover.

For me the most likely areas of delay are Doncaster station and Northallerton- Newcastle. (Mainly regulation) so could still be a challenge. Not much use in getting stuck behind a train stopping at Darlington and Durham and not allowed to pass.

 

[Marton]

Not much use in getting stuck behind a train stopping at Darlington and Durham and not allowed to pass.

Darlington not an issue as the station is off the man line. It's what the 0540dep from Edinburgh does to the 0600 step from Berwick every day. Means a 6 minute stop in darlo.

Durham should be ok on the down as there is a loop for platform 2.

So 2 opportunities down but non up before Newcastle.

 

[backontrack]

There's a substantial number of passengers being missed out from not calling at York. There can't be that much demand for Morpeth. Whichever way you look at it, it's not going to happen.

There may be some merit in running fast to Newcastle, but it does seem a bizarre stopping pattern and, with the fact that VT have stopped sane open access operators before when worried about competition, it seems unlikely to go ahead.

 

[Failed Unit]

Darlington not an issue as the station is off the man line. It's what the 0540dep from Edinburgh does to the 0600 step from Berwick every day. Means a 6 minute stop in darlo.

Durham should be ok on the down as there is a loop for platform 2.

So 2 opportunities down but non up before Newcastle.

Can't Durham be passed on the up while the train is in the station? I know it never happens now but I am sure it did in the past?

I do find heading north very frustrating on the x00 services, especially when you get held outside Durham because a train is calling there (and the x00 don't)

Most EC services stop at Darlington now, but I do recall waiting outside in the past (and still bypassing the station) waiting for a stopper (then again at Durham) result missed connection (not bitter but we left a York on time and poor regulation cost us 15 minutes)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Quite a big commitment to order new 125mph stock for an open access service

Alliance (ie DB) are proposing much the same ECML service as First, with new Pendolinos.
It will be interesting seeing how ORR judge the two OA applications.
Now we are at the beginning of the VTEC franchise period it gives everybody scope for a long-ish term licence.
Will they let both OA operators in (sharing the paths).
Three competing ECML operators would be fun.

 

[ash39]

A lot of people totally missing the point I feel. What's the point in stopping at York or Doncaster if trying to compete with air? I live in York and don't know a single person who would contemplate flying to London or Edinburgh. Everyone already gets the train, the existing Virgin one.

The unique aspect of this idea is the fact it's non stop most of the way (and why Morpeth makes sense). I still don't see it happening though.

 

[Stats]

The unique aspect of this idea is the fact it's non stop most of the way

Hardly unique when both Alliance Rail and Virgin Trains East Coast have both applied to run London to Edinburgh services calling only at Newcastle as well. The unique part of FirstGroup's calling pattern is that it calls at Morpeth.

 

[PaulLothian]

Can't Durham be passed on the up while the train is in the station? I know it never happens now but I am sure it did in the past?

Not since electrification, if I remember correctly.

 

[najaB]

Not since electrification, if I remember correctly.

Does that apply only to electric trains, or was there a change to the signalling or track layout?

 

[ash39]

Hardly unique when both Alliance Rail and Virgin Trains East Coast have both applied to run London to Edinburgh services calling only at Newcastle as well. The unique part of FirstGroup's calling pattern is that it calls at Morpeth.

By unique I meant relative to what currently exists!

Using the avoider at York has to be worth investigating. Always wondered why the Flying Scotsman never makes use of this, surely it's worth a minute or two off the journey and can't be that much route learning to undertake.

 

[Jonny]

Can't Durham be passed on the up while the train is in the station? I know it never happens now but I am sure it did in the past?

There is an up passenger loop at Durham but this does not cover the station. There is only a single up track available now (whereas the down platform is on a loop); it might have been different in the past though.
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Besides, all stations should have decent local services before open access operators are allowed on the line. This affects my home town (Chester-le-Street), and many stations in Northumberland have it even worse.

 

[glbotu]

The up loop is mostly used for looping freight trains. Someone here may be know better, but won't increasing TPE Liverpool - Newcastle to 2tph result in 1tph at Chester-Le-Street (as opposed to its current 1tp2h)?

North of Newcastle only Manors, Cramlington, Morpeth and Alnmouth get anywhere near a decent service (of around 1tph), although based on relative populations, there aren't that many people living there:

Wikipedia Lists:

Pegswood: c3000
Widdrington: c2700
Acklington: <500
Chathill: Unlisted

Compared to

Chester-Le-Street: c24000.
Morpeth: c14000
Cramlington: c39000

You can see why a greater service is not really required (although, i'd suggest Cramlington and Chester-Le-Street are underserved).