First application for Edinburgh to London Open Access service

[Masbroughlad]

On Railnews this morning that First are bidding for open access to Scotland on the ECML. And haven't GC done the same?

What will happen here? VT throw their teddies out of the pram again?!

 

[najaB]

On Railnews this morning that First are bidding for open access to Scotland on the ECML. And haven't GC done the same?

London to Scotland? This would just duplicate the VTEC service, can't see it being approved.

 

[tankmc]

First has submitted a formal track access application to the Office of Rail Regulation, which involves 'several' open access trains a day between London and Edinburgh. There would be intermediate stops, but only at Stevenage, Newcastle and Morpeth.

The claim its intended to compete with aviation but anyone else feel its a dig a Stagecoach/Virgin and has it any chance?

VIRGIN TRAINS East Coast faces a new challenge from a defeated rival less than two weeks after the reprivatised franchise was launched.

The challenger is FirstGroup, which was one of the shortlisted contenders for the controversial contract.

Now the transport group has revealed that it has submitted a formal track access application to the Office of Rail Regulation, which involves 'several' open access trains a day between London and Edinburgh. There would be intermediate stops, but only at Stevenage, Newcastle and Morpeth.

Full story here

 

[najaB]

First has submitted a formal track access application to the Office of Rail Regulation, which involves 'several' open access trains a day between London and Edinburgh. There would be intermediate stops, but only at Stevenage, Newcastle and Morpeth.

Morpeth? Not to downplay it's importance, but I can't see the London-Morpeth market being one worth going after!

 

[swt_passenger]

What will happen here? VT throw their teddies out of the pram again?!

By pretending that they didn't notice that the DfT have already mentioned a Kings Cross to Edinburgh hourly open access path in the ITT?

Table 5.3. Access Rights Contingency Plan assumptions
In developing the Access Rights Contingency Plan, Bidders should assume that:
 An open access operator is granted paths for 1 train per hour between 0700 and 1959 Mondays to Saturdays (13 trains per day in each direction), and between 0900 and 1959 on Sundays (11 trains per day in each direction) between London King’s Cross and Edinburgh, with calls at York and Newcastle only;
 The paths are timed for conventional (non-tilting) 125mph rolling stock; and
 The service commences in May 2020.

 

[Iskra]

Surely they'd be better using the hull trains brand to get paths going from hull to Edinburgh-Glasgow via York and Newcastle. That way they would compete over a lot of the East Coast and be more likely to get approval.

 

[khib70]

The claim its intended to compete with aviation but anyone else feel its a dig a Stagecoach/Virgin and has it any chance?

Full story here

Yes, and no.

And contingency plans for an OA service from 2020, are hardly an invitation for a free for all. I don't think VTEC will be losing any sleep over First chasing the Stevenage to Morpeth flows.

 

[JaJaWa]

There's more on the First application here: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/firstgroup-targets-air-passengers-with-london-edinburgh-open-access-proposal.html.

Love that they've registered it as East Coast Trains. We could soon have Virgin Trains, Virgin Trains East Coast, and East Coast Trains!

 

[Suraggu]

There's more on the First application here: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/firstgroup-targets-air-passengers-with-london-edinburgh-open-access-proposal.html.

Love that they've registered it as East Coast Trains. We could soon have Virgin Trains, Virgin Trains East Coast, and East Coast Trains!

East Coast Trains was the brand First Group used for its ECML franchise bid.

 

[gordonthemoron]

5 coach 125mph leccy rolling stock but not IEP, so what would it be then? Javelin? Which coincidently is also 1 class seating

 

[tankmc]

Surely they'd be better using the hull trains brand to get paths going from hull to Edinburgh-Glasgow via York and Newcastle. That way they would compete over a lot of the East Coast and be more likely to get approval.

I doubt there is a large enough market for people going from Hull to Edinburgh. I used to visit Hull from Newcastle and it was just as easy to change at York for heading north. The claim is to compete with aviation.

 

[Iskra]

I doubt there is a large enough market for people going from Hull to Edinburgh. I used to visit Hull from Newcastle and it was just as easy to change at York for heading north. The claim is to compete with aviation.

I agree there is not a big enough Hull-Edinburgh flow on its own, but by calling at York Hull trains would be able to pick up Leeds-Scotland travellers who want to avoid XC or by offering better fares and service. I think we can all see through the 'competing with aviation' facade.

 

[MK Tom]

5 coach 125mph leccy rolling stock but not IEP, so what would it be then? Javelin? Which coincidently is also 1 class seating

Nothing stopping them ordering a 2-class variant of the Javelin. Class 396 perhaps. But I doubt it'd be that as the IEP is basically a new Javelin. I'm waiting for somebody to say ''Baby Pendolino''.

I wish First the best of luck with this venture. It is worth noting the article says it will be under a new brand, so the trains wouldn't be branded as 'East Coast Trains'.

 

[WatcherZero]

5 coach 125mph leccy rolling stock but not IEP, so what would it be then? Javelin? Which coincidently is also 1 class seating

Baby Pendo probably, this rapid application for five trains a day in 'budget' all standard class from their franchise bid vehicle possibly points to the shape of their franchise bid, and that they feel Virgin haven't covered service wise.

Also worth quoting O'Toole in November after having lost their fourth bid on the bounce with £150m being wiped off their share value and shortly before they lost the fifth.

'We wont be forced into any desperate franchise applications'.

.....

 

[fgwrich]

But could the new stock be something we don't already have here in the UK? First were reportedly working with CAF on new High Speed EMUs for the now lost West Coast Franchise - They could still be the same units talked about with First / CAF keen to test the market in the UK.

 

[onionjoe76]

Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere but came across this this morning.

Think it will happen?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...ines-with-low-fares-rail-service-be.120307955

 

[DaiGog]

I don't think the angle of competition with the airlines is a facade. Yes, there are calls at Newcastle and Edinburgh Waverley, but those choosing to fly between the South East and tha aforementioned cities are mostly heading to, from or via central Newcastle or Edinburgh, surely.

It is a fact (I assume, as it's stated in the press release!) that two thirds of the London-Edinburgh market goes by plane. That's a big market to go at, and if the journey times are about 3.5 hours city centre to city centre, then it starts to look attractive. Also, provided the pricing structure matches that of the airlines - which InterCity rail operators generally do these days with expensive peak fares for the business market and cheap AP at other times to fill up capacity - then First could compete with them quite effectively.

As for Stevenage and Morpeth, there may be something in that too given their proximity to their nearest airports. They will need dedicated bus links if this side of it is to work, which connect with (and wait for) the new operator's trains.

There is also some potential to capture passengers flying in medium- or long-haul and connecting out of / into internal flights to / from the north. FGW has recently installed a successful partnership with Singapore airlines for onward travel from Heathrow to the west of England, so I'm thinking along these lines, where the airline issues a rail ticket for onward transfer (although I don't know enough of the airline market to speculate which airlines might be useful for the east coast operation to do business with).

Finally, many a sceptic might (with some justification) assume it's all about ORCATS-raiding the London to Newcastle and Edinburgh pots. What if the new operator chose not to claim ORCATS revenue and focused solely on dedicated ticketing, just like the airlines do? This would concentrate efforts on plundering the airline market. Radical, yes - but could it happen? There must be £millions to be had by doing just that, and it would weaken any legal challenge by Stagecoach/Virgin (which we can probably take as a given that they will do!)

So maybe it's not just sour grapes - maybe it's a new and innovative business idea which really could work. If they are as genuine in their motives as their PR department claim they are, I for one applaud First for having a go and trying to do something different.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Morpeth? Not to downplay it's importance, but I can't see the London-Morpeth market being one worth going after!

I can't see a "budget train" making much dent in Morpeth, given that most of the potential custom from there would be businessmen from their expensive farmhouses at Tranwell Woods.

I can't see this application going anywhere at all, as it is clearly nothing but an ORCATS raid.

 

[maniacmartin]

What if the new operator chose not to claim ORCATS revenue and focused solely on dedicated ticketing, just like the airlines do? This would concentrate efforts on plundering the airline market. Radical, yes - but could it happen?

I don't think the rules permit this. As I recall, Open Access Operators are obliged to follow the TSA and accept normal tickets, including all ANY PERMITTED-routed tickets for the routes they travel on.

 

[PermitToTravel]

But only if signatories to the TSA/members of ATOC, surely? They could go down the route of not being a National Rail service at all

 

[glbotu]

But isn't this service pretty much specified by the DfT. I mean, it was in the ITT that one fast path per hour must be left between Edinburgh and London for an OAO. This surely means that it's more than just an attempt at revenue abstraction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think the rules permit this. As I recall, Open Access Operators are obliged to follow the TSA and accept normal tickets, including all ANY PERMITTED-routed tickets for the routes they travel on.

Is there any rule stating they can't operate compulsory reservations? That would quite possibly still make their own tickets preferable, particularly if they had generous T&Cs.

Neil

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Or designating the whole train as First Class?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or designating the whole train as First Class?

Now that is an interesting idea - particularly if it were seated 2+1. That would make walk-ups basically irrelevant even if technically accepted.

They do mention it being a single class, though I'd sort-of expected a high quality 2+2 Standard like Grand Central or similar - i.e. well-spaced seats and a lot of tables.

Neil

 

[higthomas]

Now that is an interesting idea - particularly if it were seated 2+1. That would make walk-ups basically irrelevant even if technically accepted.

They do mention it being a single class, though I'd sort-of expected a high quality 2+2 Standard like Grand Central or similar - i.e. well-spaced seats and a lot of tables.

Neil

I think that is possible, but I would be interested if they did something similar to the pile em high, sell em cheap model adopted by SNCF with their Ouigo concept.

 

[Bodiddly]

This is First Group proposing this, not some community pie in the sky railusers group. They must have seen some potential in it or they wouldn't be splashing the cash for an open access service.
Not too sure how this works but common sense says it will cost ££££'s to simply obtain the licence. The paths have been made available in the tender conditions but I will fully expect to see Beardy and Sooty to throw every spanner possible into the works to derail things.

 

[tankmc]

I think that is possible, but I would be interested if they did something similar to the pile em high, sell em cheap model adopted by SNCF with their Ouigo concept.

Think they are missing a trick not adding a business zone like Chiltern mainline with every seat having a oversized table and free wifi.. Surely most people flying will be for business or connecting flight and I cant see people connecting dragging there luggage on the underground to get to Heathrow so logically you aim to tap into the business market.

 

[Mikey C]

5 coach 125mph leccy rolling stock but not IEP, so what would it be then? Javelin? Which coincidently is also 1 class seating

Quite a big commitment to order new 125mph stock for an open access service

 

[Nym]

Or lease / buy the spare IC225 sets when VTEC don't want them any more, since the start date is in 2020?

If it where single class then I can see a premier / super 1st class style service being offered by 1st Group, as there will be plenty of Mk.4s to choose from, we could end up with two restaurant cars, with the remainder refurbished to 1st class only and run as a Pullman service, possibly top and tailed by Class 91s and up to 11 carriages long?

 

[Mark62]

Morpeth is a small town. It's not going to grow that much in the next five years.