FGW receive LM cascade

[northwichcat]

Maybe, but this is what the DfT said:

That agreement has to happen first...

The 7x142s at FGW were effectively replaced by the 3x180s. Originally it was proposed the 142s would return in place of the 180s but it was instead decided that 6 x LM 150s would replace the 180s, meaning the 142s would be 'additional capacity.'

However, the document that stated "Subject to successfully concluding a commercial agreement that is affordable and value for money" was published in 2010 and I think since then the agreement has been finalised and Northern have even paid for repaints for the 142s this year.

 

[newtownmgr]

150108 & 126 are officially only on loan to FGW for the 6 week summer holiday period and are supposed to return to LM in Sept. Obviously that may change subject to 172 availability etc. LM are short of 150's at present with some services on Snow Hill lines being shortformed with 2 vice 3 car & 3 vice 4 car being diagrammed with no spares at Tyseley to cover failures. 150009 is currently formed of the good vehicle of 150216 plus middle car (5#202 and good part of 009 to ensure a 3 car in traffic. Other half of 216 is awaiting a new cardon shaft after leaving the old 1 on the track at Malvern Link, one vehicle of 009 as gearbox problems. Bedford - bletchley is currently 153's only but i believe this is common during school holidays.

 

[northwichcat]

with some services on Snow Hill lines being shortformed with 2 vice 3 car & 3 vice 4 car being diagrammed with no spares at Tyseley to cover failures.

That's what I expected. I imagine LM have started reforming some of the 3 car 150s so they had 'spare 150s' but they have 2 car 150s running 3 car 150 diagrams. I also imagine no 150s at LM are scheduled for heavy maintenance ahead of the transfer so there is less need for some to be sitting around spare.

Maybe DfT have forced this on to them to ensure the 172s are in service ASAP.

 

[swt_passenger]

However, the document that stated "Subject to successfully concluding a commercial agreement that is affordable and value for money" was published in 2010 and I think since then the agreement has been finalised and Northern have even paid for repaints for the 142s this year.

24th Jan this year to be accurate. And yes, things could have changed, but I was trying to illustrate that it isn't as cut and dried as WillPS assumed...

 

[northwichcat]

24th Jan this year to be accurate. And yes, things could have changed, but I was trying to illustrate that it isn't as cut and dried as WillPS assumed...

I thought it was written last year and released under the FOI Act early this year.

 

[WillPS]

24th Jan this year to be accurate. And yes, things could have changed, but I was trying to illustrate that it isn't as cut and dried as WillPS assumed...

Expecting is not the same as assuming. I'm quite aware of the FOI documents.

 

[387star]

The North Western trains livery has gone quietly 142001 was the last example (although slightly revised) I believe

 

[fgwrich]

The North Western trains livery has gone quietly 142001 was the last example (although slightly revised) I believe

Have to say, shame in a way, as i rather liked the Ex FNW Livery on the 142s & 153s and suited either classes rather well - far better than the current Northern livery on the 142s!

 

[WillPS]

Not before its time though - it was outdated a decade ago was it not?

 

[northwichcat]

Have to say, shame in a way, as i rather liked the Ex FNW Livery on the 142s & 153s and suited either classes rather well - far better than the current Northern livery on the 142s!

Not before its time though - it was outdated a decade ago was it not?

ml was right when he said NWT not FNW. The blue with gold star with the livery decided on before First bought out the company. The Barbie First livery was what FNW used on the 156s, 175s and 323s, although they kept the NWT livery on 142s, 150s, 153s and 158s with the First name painted on the side. (The 322s that NWT had weren't kept on by FNW due to Virgin's competition protection rules.)

Although who decided Pacers should have a gold star on the side?!

 

[150001]

Well, passing the depot today, there was only two 2 car class 150s there! No 153s and a few LM 170s plus three class 172s.

 

[schwa]

Those 3 car 150s would prove useful around FGW land.

 

[150222]

Those 3 car 150s would prove useful around FGW land.

Or the calder valley or harrogate lines.

 

[schwa]

Or the calder valley or harrogate lines.

Gosh. I opened a proverbial can of worms.

 

[TEW]

150126 entered service for FGW today. Should be working the 0900 CDF-PLY and associated workings tomorrow if it sticks to its diagram. 150108 should enter service on the Severn Beach line tomorrow.

 

[fgwrich]

150126 entered service for FGW today. Should be working the 0900 CDF-PLY and associated workings tomorrow if it sticks to its diagram. 150108 should enter service on the Severn Beach line tomorrow.

Good! Certainly makes for a different sight at Plymouth! First there was the Arriva hire ins, then London Overground / Sliverlink, Now Network West Midlands and Centro / Central Trains liveries...Adds abit more colour to the south west anyway

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDNJ3Crgp3A

Found that on Youtube, obviously heading for Penzance!

 

[TEW]

You can still see an Arriva 150 on Sundays. One works the 0828 Bristol Temple Meads-Penzance and 1440 Penzance-Bristol Temple Meads.

 

[anthony263]

You can still see an Arriva 150 on Sundays. One works the 0828 Bristol Temple Meads-Penzance and 1440 Penzance-Bristol Temple Meads.

I woudldnt like to do that distance on a class 150, well unless the only other option is a voyager

 

[TEW]

150126 is working on the Devon local services today. Next working is the 1553 Exmouth-Paignton.

 

[Wolvercoter]

150126 is working on the Devon local services today. Next working is the 1553 Exmouth-Paignton.

Here it is at St James' Park on a later service:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wolvercotewanderer/5999193452/

All of the Network West Midlands branding has been removed.

 

[Jobsworth]

150126 worked 1C04 0745 Bristol to Penzance yesterday coupled to another 150/1. Looks strange in LM colours without any branding - like something out of a toothpaste tube.

 

[WillPS]

I'm surprised FGW are repainting their new arrivals at all, since their current franchise has only a short while remaining.

By this point in Central Trains' life they'd long given up painting their acquisitions!

 

[starrymarkb]

It might be that they are due a repaint anyway, but FGW do have some past form, they 'smartened up'* the pacers from Northern even though they were only supposed to stay for a year...

*A fresh coat of paint to the interior and retrimmed seats.

 

[gmiller]

According to the Freedom of Information request from Jan 2011, there are thirteen LM class 150's still to find a home for. Does anyone know if a decision has been made on these yet?.

It would seem to make sense to me to send eight of these 150's to FGW to replace the eight class 143's that they have and then send those eight to Arriva Trains Wales. They then would hold all twenty three of that class.

Arriva Wales could then start the process of cascading their 142's to Northern, so that Northern can hold all the 142 stock. This would leave Arriva with seven 142's. If you take into account that Arriva Wales are also receiving two class 150's back from FGW and that LM could send them the remaining five class 150's still to allocate, then that would leave Arriva Wales in a position to send the remaining 142's to Northern.

This would leave all 143's with Arriva and all 142's and 144's with Northern. Northern could use the extra stock to further strengthen services whilst taking one or two (poorest condition) 142's from service to act as cost saving spare parts supplies.

Of course the cascading of the 142's to Northern depends on Arriva's own need to strengthen services.


As a follow on from what I have written above, if that plan were to be carried out then afterwards the DFT should then incentivise LM to place the order for a further twenty six Class 172's early. This incentive would not have to be anywhere near the full train value as LM plan to take these trains at some point anyway. This would not solve the Bomabardier jobs issue but certainly be of help.

This would free up LM's remaining few Class 150's (conflicting reports of seven or nine they are keeping for now, which is accurate?) to send to Arriva Wales. They could then strengthen services and take out one or two class 143's to act as cost saving parts machines.

I have read on here that the electrification of Liverpool-Manchester should free up around twenty five class 150's/142's. If this is correct then those could cascade to replace Northerns 144's. Leaving Northern with a large uniform 142 Pacer stock. However the electrification not taking place till 2016 leaves this too late for my liking.

In the 2016-18 timeframe my guesstimate is that thirty Networkers will be freed up by Great Western electrification. If these are cascaded further down the Western (as rumoured) then that should free up some (but perhaps not thirty) Class 150/153/158's, but it still seems that without some healthy stock orders that we will be struggling to remove Pacers by the 2019 deadline, let alone start making headway on Sprinter replacement.

 

[158722]

According to the Freedom of Information request from Jan 2011, there are thirteen LM class 150's still to find a home for. Does anyone know if a decision has been made on these yet?.

Latest info gleaned from various forums, etc appears to be that of the 35 LM units (72 coaches, 2x 3 cars and 33 2-car), 18 2 car to Northern, 11 2-car to FGW (was 9, but 2 extra 150/2s now allocated) with possibly 3 or 5 staying with LM - total 34, leaving the only non-allocated unit as the toiletless 150/2 pair or 57209/212.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It would seem to make sense to me to send eight of these 150's to FGW to replace the eight class 143's that they have and then send those eight to Arriva Trains Wales. They then would hold all twenty three of that class.

Arriva Wales could then start the process of cascading their 142's to Northern, so that Northern can hold all the 142 stock. This would leave Arriva with seven 142's. If you take into account that Arriva Wales are also receiving two class 150's back from FGW and that LM could send them the remaining five class 150's still to allocate, then that would leave Arriva Wales in a position to send the remaining 142's to Northern.

This would leave all 143's with Arriva and all 142's and 144's with Northern. Northern could use the extra stock to further strengthen services whilst taking one or two (poorest condition) 142's from service to act as cost saving spare parts supplies.

Quite agree on such a plan, the idea of concentrating similar units with the smallest number of operators surely makes sense in terms of cost control. The anomaly I like to quote are the 10 400hp Perkins 158s (863-872) - 10 non-standard units spread across 3 operators...! 5 with FSR, 4 with EMT and 1 with NOR.

This re-shuffle because of the LM 172 is the chance to do this, with FGW receiving more 150s instead of Northern getting them, 143s off to ATW and some movement of 150s or 153s to ATW from NOR allowing all the 142s to head north. Northern suffer because of perhaps lower quality stock, but gain in overall numbers and as you say, some relief in sight as the NW electrification plans start to deliver within 5 years.

 

[gmiller]

Ahhh so the "26 carriages" mentioned in the freedom of information request included the ones that LM had been planning to keep all along. Let's hope the follow on order of 172's is imminent then.

Yes that suggestion fulfills the same objectives. Would bring a bit more clarity to the rolling stock situation too.

Even after the cascades due to electrification there still will be loads of pacers. There seems to be no plan for this. Frustrating.

 

[swt_passenger]

Ahhh so the "26 carriages" mentioned in the freedom of information request included the ones that LM had been planning to keep all along.

Well that is exactly what it says in fairly plain English.

"London Midland will be introducing 69 Class 172 carriages into their franchise. This deployment will replace 72 Class 150 carriages."

 

[gmiller]

But I wasn't sure how many 150's LM had to start with. I took it that the 76 were the ones surplus to requirements, not that the 76 was the full extent of their stock. As I knew LM were keeping some 150's I did not regard those units as being replaced.

 

[swt_passenger]

Ah, sorry about that then - it didn't come across that way in your earlier posts.

 

[150222]

Why would northern replace the 144's with 142's? The 144's are in much better nick. Norhern could sent around 5 153's to scotrail for anniesland and paisly canal? services releasing 158's.