FGW Franchise Extension

[Eagle]

I've been wondering what the winner is going to call themselves. 'The next train from platform 1 will be the 08:20 Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern service to Cambridge', hardly rolls of the tongue does it!

But what happens if Govia win the franchise? I don't think they want to give up their successful Southern brand, so it may be the case that the whole thing gets called Southern...

 

[tbtc]

I've been wondering what the winner is going to call themselves. 'The next train from platform 1 will be the 08:20 Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern service to Cambridge', hardly rolls of the tongue does it!

This isn't meant to sound like a silly question, but does a franchise need to have one brand for the public?

One brand for the Thameslink core (i.e. services operated by 700s), one brand for the current Southern services (that don't go beyond Blackfriars/ Victoria - apart from the WLL route to Milton Keynes) and one brand for the Moorgate 313s?

Stagecoach's current colour schemes seem pretty good at separating the two or three different types of service that they run (red, white or blue), but all run under the same name - why not go one further?

(since we've established that the name a franchise is registered under bears no relation to the one painted on the trains)

 

[Eagle]

Didn't One sort of try that, with the five colours in their candy stripe representing the five sectors of their franchise (Intercity, Great Eastern, Anglia Regional, West Anglia and Stansted Express)?

 

[bnm]

What about TSGN having the public name, Network SouthEast?

 

[Manchester77]

Surely you'd sub brand the routes so the existing southern routes would stay southern and then you'd use thameslink and then great northern that way you wouldn't over complicate things. It's probably be easiest for Stagecoach to do as you'd have the umbrella company TSGN Trains with Southern Trains, Great Northern Trains and Thameslink Trains.

 

[WillPS]

I don't see any reason why a generic brand name like 'c2c' or 'Capital Connect' couldn't be used.

 

[richw]

Reference First Branding, on a local media's comment page down here, people were moaning First got their train extension because they run rubbish bus services. Evidences that people connect it with a rubbish bus service.

On another note another forum the following has been pointed out:

The new franchise also puts an end to payments which the DfT has been making to FGW to compensate for revenue from fares being lower than expected when the 2006 contract was awarded.

Ah - so that's an end of "Cap and Collar" where 80% of the risk goes back to the DfT which (as I understand it) has meant that of an extra (say) 1000 pounds collected in a day by an RPI team, only around 200 would stay with First to pay that team and perhaps to make a little profit. Perhaps the change will encourage more robust fare collection, and also more of a willingness to try out other schemes which will raise more farebox income. Could be good news for innovational things to be tried, though 2 years is scant time to build anything up and get a return.

Does this mean Flamingo and colleagues will do more revenue, without management inviting them for meeting without tea if a passenger doesn't like being asked to pay, as it is clear from several of their posts especially Flamingo that revenue is very low priority, and this probably explains why management see it low profile if 80% had to be paid to DfT.

 

[Eagle]

What about TSGN having the public name, Network SouthEast?

I'm not sure that Southeastern would like their neighbours having such a similar name.

 

[swt_passenger]

What about TSGN having the public name, Network SouthEast?

That would be a bit of an own goal, because many people would associate the name with the rubbish served up by British Rail, such as tatty old Mk1 slam door stock. Besides, that name was for the whole southeast area, and the new franchise is anything but...

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

On another note another forum the following has been pointed out:
Does this mean Flamingo and colleagues will do more revenue, without management inviting them for meeting without tea if a passenger doesn't like being asked to pay, as it is clear from several of their posts especially Flamingo that revenue is very low priority, and this probably explains why management see it low profile if 80% had to be paid to DfT.

As far as I know the terms of the FGW extension have not been published.
It might only be a management contract, like Virgin's (taking 1% of revenue as a fee).
You can be sure First have been incentivised to maximise revenue, even if not at the old cap and collar rate.

 

[richw]

As far as I know the terms of the FGW extension have not been published.
It might only be a management contract, like Virgin's (taking 1% of revenue as a fee).
You can be sure First have been incentivised to maximise revenue, even if not at the old cap and collar rate.

Wales Online published figures yesterday,

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/first-great-western-pay-department-6140469?

The DfT today told WalesOnline the premium would be £32.5m for the 23 months and FGW would incur additional costs of £150m in both years of the new franchise, compared with the costs envisaged in the 2006 franchise contract.

The DfT said the additional costs will include:

* a significant increase in the charges FGW will pay for the use of Network Rail’s tracks, as determined by the Office of Rail Regulation;

* costs resulting from disruption to services while the Great Western line is electrified;

* heavy maintenance of rolling stock and essential maintenance work on the High Speed Train fleet;

* payments for using a new train depot at Reading, which will be higher than those for the old depot;

* preparatory work for the new Super Express Trains, which are due to arrive from Japan and begin testing in 2015.

The DfT added that the 2006 franchise contract had assumed that FGW would by now have the benefit of new trains, but FGW would have to keep the High Speed Trains – dating from the 1970s – in service for longer.

 

[Manchester77]

Network South Central?

 

[ainsworth74]

Besides, that name was for the whole southeast area, and the new franchise is anything but...

At least not yet

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Wales Online published figures yesterday,

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/first-great-western-pay-department-6140469?

Thanks for posting that. It's a proper commercial target then.
They will still have to work to get the revenue.
It's odd that something similar has not been agreed with Virgin yet.

 

[richw]

While many franchises – including Arriva Trains Wales – receive subsidy, FGW is in a position to pay a premium to the Department for Transport.

This stood out to me, does this mean that FGW is a profitable TOC whereas the "many" others are loss making?

 

[455driver]

This stood out to me, does this mean that FGW is a profitable TOC whereas the "many" others are loss making?

It all depends what figures you chose to use, well more specifically which figures you leave out of the equation.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This stood out to me, does this mean that FGW is a profitable TOC whereas the "many" others are loss making?

It always was "profitable".
Under the old franchise the premiums were too great for FGW so they terminated the franchise early (as they were allowed).
Last year the FGW premium was £435.6m, but they had a cap and collar subsidy of £266.3m so the net premium was £169.3m.
But that ignores £333.8m for their portion of the network grant (which DfT pays direct to Network Rail ).
Figures from Modern Railways October p32 (originally from DfT https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rail-subsidy-per-passenger-mile ).

So the reported £32.3m premium is a lot less than they were due to pay under the old franchise.
But they also have additional costs as well (different access charges, disruption payments, development costs etc), so you can't easily compare them.

I would guess FGW is paying substantially less than it would have done, and DfT is well out of pocket overall, compared to if the old franchise was still in force.
On the other hand the next 2 years will be ones of maximum disruption for FGW with all the upgrade works on the line, and they have agreed to invest more money over the 23 months.

The only profitable franchises (2012/13) if you take the network grant into account are: FCC £68m; Southern £16m; SWT £43m.

 

[BestWestern]

Thanks for posting that. It's a proper commercial target then.
They will still have to work to get the revenue.
It's odd that something similar has not been agreed with Virgin yet.

The priority will still be to get the train there on time and, on a personal level, to avoid potential conflict situations. I can't imagine a sudden policy of management cracking the whip - having said that, I'd have no issues with some of the poor performing Guards being pulled up to standard.

 

[Flamingo]

The priority will still be to get the train there on time and, on a personal level, to avoid potential conflict situations. I can't imagine a sudden policy of management cracking the whip - having said that, I'd have no issues with some of the poor performing Guards being pulled up to standard.

I do, as unless
1. A lot more back-up is put in place to ensure our safety and
2. management actually grows a pair and starts backing staff enforcing revenue, the front-line staff are going to be damned if we do and damned if we don't...

 

[Morgsie]

Extended to September 2015

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/franchising-deal-to-boost-services-on-great-western-main-line

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Extended to September 2015
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/franchising-deal-to-boost-services-on-great-western-main-line

Old news I'm afraid (announced 3 October, see post #82).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I read today that the FGW franchise agreement was for 23 months because under EU rules the government can't offer a longer contract without a competition.
So it will have to be negotiated again in 2015 for the last few months up to the 2016 rebid.
It seems the same is true of the Virgin extension, which is why there is not a VT deal for 4 years up to the next ICWC bid round in 2017.
We are therefore in hand-to-mouth mode on these interim franchise extensions, with 23-month renegotiations.
XC will therefore have to have 3 such extensions up to its rebid in 2019.
This won't be popular with the owning groups, and doesn't help long term planning such as rolling stock purchase.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I read today that the FGW franchise agreement was for 23 months because under EU rules the government can't offer a longer contract without a competition.
So it will have to be negotiated again in 2015 for the last few months up to the 2016 rebid.
It seems the same is true of the Virgin extension, which is why there is not a VT deal for 4 years up to the next ICWC bid round in 2017.
We are therefore in hand-to-mouth mode on these interim franchise extensions, with 23-month renegotiations.
XC will therefore have to have 3 such extensions up to its rebid in 2019.
This won't be popular with the owning groups, and doesn't help long term planning such as rolling stock purchase.

Doesn't it just and for some of these franchises that need to start sorting stock out the most.

 

[455driver]

Doesn't it just and for some of these franchises that need to start sorting stock out the most.

Think of the money the government can save though?
If supposed enthusiasts think the TOCs have control over the rolling stock they run what chance is there of Joe public having a clue about the true situation?

No new DMUs, chronic overcrowding with that <deleted> transport minister sending the TOCs letters to 'do what they can' instead of actually giving them the trains they need!

Talk is cheap and that is all the Governments ever do!

 

[Goatboy]

Think of the money the government can save though?
If supposed enthusiasts think the TOCs have control over the rolling stock they run what chance is there of Joe public having a clue about the true situation?

Most members of the public would find the idea of a privately operated railway company not having any control over the trains it chooses to buy or operate so far fetched the fact it's the case wouldnt even enter their mind..

 

[SkinnyDave]

Just Read my Rail Mag about this subject and they report that there could be an order for new electric trains for Thames Valley by the end of the year

Does anyone really think this will happen rather than taking stock from elsewhere?

 

[Eagle]

Unless by "new trains" they mean the 387s, of course. Those are (currently) new.

 

[Manchester77]

Or perhaps the Siemens Desiro 118 mph product? There was always expected to be another EMU order for either TPE or Thames Valley. I guess we can assume the 387s will end up on TPE?

 

[tbtc]

Or perhaps the Siemens Desiro 118 mph product? There was always expected to be another EMU order for either TPE or Thames Valley. I guess we can assume the 387s will end up on TPE?

29x four coach EMUs would probably be okay for TPE's services through Huddersfield, though a little on the tight side (given the half hourly Liverpool - Newcastle plans, the idea of six trains an hour from Manchester to Leeds via Huddersfield...).

In comparison, how many four coach EMUs would you need for the 165/166 replacements in the Thames Valley (etc)?

All depends on the extra 140 carriages I suppose.

 

[455driver]

Most members of the public would find the idea of a privately operated railway company not having any control over the trains it chooses to buy or operate so far fetched the fact it's the case wouldnt even enter their mind..

Exactly, thats why this pseudo privatisation suites the government so well, ridiculous overcrowding caused by lack of units and the government can blame the TOCs knowing full well the TOCs cant say anything as they then wouldnt be considered for any more franchises.

Thats one of the many reasons the government should fu um go away from the railways leaving some rail minded people in charge of it all.