FGW 57/6 (and DRS 57/3)s Unreliability

[Monty]

I can't help but wonder if the 57's days on the sleeper maybe numbered. The soon to be exChiltern 67s could be a viable long term replacement if things get desperate.

 

[richw]

The 57s are not doing well. it's got to be time to retire them. They have their own fleet plus 2 or 3 hire ins and still can't manage to get 2 a day out of 7-8 to work for 7-8 hours.

 

[221129]

The 57s are not doing well. it's got to be time to retire them. They have their own fleet plus 2 or 3 hire ins and still can't manage to get 2 a day out of 7-8 to work for 7-8 hours.

In fairness I believe only 2 of FGWs fleet are available... Plus 3 Hire ins

 

[fgwrich]

In fairness I believe only 2 of FGWs fleet are available... Plus 3 Hire ins

Correct. The frustrating thing for FGW must really be having 604 sat around OOC doing little to nothing. It's a very reliable 57 that and when it runs, can put in some sterling service. The problem I gather is with it's scrap tyres. And it seems new tyres these days can only come from South Africa, which isn't a quick job at all. Then you've got to get it to another workshop which can lift it off it's bogies, disconnect the traction motors, replace the wheelsets etc it all takes some considerable time. Not to mention the unforeseen delays with the 57s receiving 'work' at RVEL and bogie overhauls by Wabtec. All in all I'd be pretty p*ssed off if I was in management at the moment. Then there's been the quality of the DRS hire ins which can't have done Direct Rail Services reputation any good - Safe, Secure, Reliable?

As it stands, the fleet situation is this:
FGW - 57602, 57603.
DRS - 57303, 57306, 57312.
OOC - 57604
RVEL Derby - 57605.

I'm not being cynical about First's intentions towards the Night Riviera - It's a hugely successful service* to the people of the West Country and First has put a lot of money into making it a little more viable than it was at the start of the franchise. I am going to be cynical about DRS though - They have 12 57/3s in their fleet, along with a plentiful supply of 47/8s. But as last autumn showed, they placed 57/3s onto Network Rail Sandite duties, and sent a fair few to Eastleigh for repainting. Somehow FGW seems to be sent the unreliable ones though - 310 for some considerable time before 303 was finally sent along - 303 has been a little more reliable but hasn't been without it's issues, 312 has already failed with low power - a 603 regular trait, and now 306 seems to be having issues. I know DRS have the Northern Belle and West Coast Thunderbird contracts to honour, but... I was equally surprised to see DRS making use of 605 to take the Pretendolino from Wembley to Norwich Crown Point in December, before moving onwards to Derby.

Incidentally, some positive Night Riviera news. The Mk3 SLEP which was removed from the service a few weeks ago after developing wheelflats has been taken away to Kilmarnock for inclusion in the refurbishment program, it is now the 3rd Mk3 in the program and should be coming back down south sometime in the oncoming months. FGW is by the way, adding at least another TSO and SLEP to the fleet to increase coach numbers, while also using more of the spare vehicle / vehicles.

*Reliability pending of course.

 

[221129]

57312 is now off Hire and back at Crewe.

 

[83G/84D]

Bad tyres or not 57604 made it to Penzance on the back of the down sleepers this morning with 57303 leading.

 

[CosherB]

Correct. The frustrating thing for FGW must really be having 604 sat around OOC doing little to nothing. It's a very reliable 57 that and when it runs, can put in some sterling service. The problem I gather is with it's scrap tyres. And it seems new tyres these days can only come from South Africa, which isn't a quick job at all. Then you've got to get it to another workshop which can lift it off it's bogies, disconnect the traction motors, replace the wheelsets etc it all takes some considerable time. Not to mention the unforeseen delays with the 57s receiving 'work' at RVEL and bogie overhauls by Wabtec. All in all I'd be pretty p*ssed off if I was in management at the moment. Then there's been the quality of the DRS hire ins which can't have done Direct Rail Services reputation any good - Safe, Secure, Reliable?

As it stands, the fleet situation is this:
FGW - 57602, 57603.
DRS - 57303, 57306, 57312.
OOC - 57604
RVEL Derby - 57605.

I'm not being cynical about First's intentions towards the Night Riviera - It's a hugely successful service* to the people of the West Country and First has put a lot of money into making it a little more viable than it was at the start of the franchise. I am going to be cynical about DRS though - They have 12 57/3s in their fleet, along with a plentiful supply of 47/8s. But as last autumn showed, they placed 57/3s onto Network Rail Sandite duties, and sent a fair few to Eastleigh for repainting. Somehow FGW seems to be sent the unreliable ones though - 310 for some considerable time before 303 was finally sent along - 303 has been a little more reliable but hasn't been without it's issues, 312 has already failed with low power - a 603 regular trait, and now 306 seems to be having issues. I know DRS have the Northern Belle and West Coast Thunderbird contracts to honour, but... I was equally surprised to see DRS making use of 605 to take the Pretendolino from Wembley to Norwich Crown Point in December, before moving onwards to Derby.

Incidentally, some positive Night Riviera news. The Mk3 SLEP which was removed from the service a few weeks ago after developing wheelflats has been taken away to Kilmarnock for inclusion in the refurbishment program, it is now the 3rd Mk3 in the program and should be coming back down south sometime in the oncoming months. FGW is by the way, adding at least another TSO and SLEP to the fleet to increase coach numbers, while also using more of the spare vehicle / vehicles.

*Reliability pending of course.

An excellent summary. Maybe DRS should invest more money on maintenance rather than the copious quantities of paint they seem to get through. Accepting that the basic locos are 50 years old, the engines are 30-odd years old and the alternators 30 to 40 years old, refurbished or otherwise, it's getting to be elderley kit that seemingly needs more and more TLC. This whole episode has been a PR disaster for DRS and I'm sure will be in the back of the minds of TOC managers when looking to hire in DRS locos in future.

 

[83G/84D]

Latest hire in from DRS is 57306 which made it to Penzance today along with 57602:-

 

[fgwrich]

Bad tyres or not 57604 made it to Penzance on the back of the down sleepers this morning with 57303 leading.

I gather it's back on a fresh set of bogies. So that will help to alleviate some of the pain FGW are feeling and fortunately now means that the fleet is almost up to full strength again with 57602, 603* and 604 all available for use again.

Nice pictures of 602 & 306 In Penzance by the way!

An excellent summary. Maybe DRS should invest more money on maintenance rather than the copious quantities of paint they seem to get through. Accepting that the basic locos are 50 years old, the engines are 30-odd years old and the alternators 30 to 40 years old, refurbished or otherwise, it's getting to be elderley kit that seemingly needs more and more TLC. This whole episode has been a PR disaster for DRS and I'm sure will be in the back of the minds of TOC managers when looking to hire in DRS locos in future.

What I don't get, is that DRS have had no Northern Belle work over the entire month of January and there isn't anything until the 14th of Feb. So what's stopped them from sending a more reliable loco down to FGW? If I was the customer, I would hardly be very happy with DRS's loco performances, especially seeing locos like the 57/3 Fleet running around on Sandites in East Anglia or pushing around Nuclear Flasks with 20s, when the dire performances of the on hire to FGW fleet. Also, given that the Northern Belle can operate with 47s, FGW is limited to 57s I find DRS's reactions a little odd. Who knows, there's probably more to it, but given the length of time it's taken to get 310 into the works since it's first failure last summer I'm a little disappointed.

*When it want's to work of course!

 

[Voyager 2093]

Given the problems with the 57 fleet is there any reason HSTs are not used on the service?

 

[PHILIPE]

Given the problems with the 57 fleet is there any reason HSTs are not used on the service?

Where would you sleep and where would you get the HSTs from ?

 

[Murph]

Given the problems with the 57 fleet is there any reason HSTs are not used on the service?

If you meant class 43 HST power cars providing traction for the SLEPs, rather than HSTs, it's due to electrical compatibility. Mark 3s are either HST type with 415VAC 3 phase ETS; or LHCS type with the same 415VAC 3 phase auxiliary equipment, but supplied via a per-coach motor-generator set which is supplied by standard 750-1000VDC ETS. Mark 3s have been converted from LHCS to HST in the past, but it takes time and money, and they can then only run with 43s.

 

[Voyager 2093]

Where would you sleep and where would you get the HSTs from ?

Maybe I should have made myself a tad clearer, I was referring to the Power Cars.

 

[richw]

57312 I believe did a rugby charter today, anyone know if it went any better to the rugby than its done on the beds?

 

[PHILIPE]

Maybe I should have made myself a tad clearer, I was referring to the Power Cars.

You haven't said where they would come from. When HSTs get involved with the Beds you usually find there is a cancellation in the morning !!!

 

[RobShipway]

You haven't said where they would come from. When HSTs get involved with the Beds you usually find there is a cancellation in the morning !!!

Having asked the same question in this thread as Jamaal, I believe there are at least two spare class 43's stabled either at OOC or at Laira?

Okay, I accept that fact that the change of the coaches to be HST coaches would take time and yes, other than the two that I believe are spare no others would be available until Class 800 start services on the GWML.

However, correct me if I am wrong but aren't the Chiltern MK3's none HST's coaches that are being pulled with Class 67 and now Class 68 loco's?

So if my point above is correct, why does FGW no sub lease either DB Shenker Class 67's or the Class 68's such as 68008 or 68009?

 

[cjmillsnun]

So if my point above is correct, why does FGW no sub lease either DB Shenker Class 67's or the Class 68's such as 68008 or 68009?

This is only good if they decide to completely move away from 57s, including their own 57/6s. They they can train their drivers on 67s or 68s.

Otherwise we get back to the age old problem. The drivers don't sign them.

 

[RobShipway]

This is only good if they decide to completely move away from 57s, including their own 57/6s. They they can train their drivers on 67s or 68s.

Otherwise we get back to the age old problem. The drivers don't sign them.

Okay, how does it take a driver to learn how to drive a new locomotive or train on average?

 

[Ash Bridge]

Okay, how does it take a driver to learn how to drive a new locomotive or train on average?

It may not just be lack of driver knowledge regarding the 67s, but are they proven machines on the Devon banks?

 

[RobShipway]

It may not just be lack of driver knowledge regarding the 67s, but are they proven machines on the Devon banks?

Good question, as I am not sure that either 67's or 68's have been to the Devon Banks. However, if a 57 can make pulling coaches then I am pretty sure that a more powerful class 67 or 68 can.

 

[Darandio]

However, if a 57 can make pulling coaches then I am pretty sure that a more powerful class 67 or 68.

It just isn't as simple as that.

 

[noddy1878]

Good question, as I am not sure that either 67's or 68's have been to the Devon Banks. However, if a 57 can make pulling coaches then I am pretty sure that a more powerful class 67 or 68.

67s have been there on charter trains.

 

[RobShipway]

It just isn't as simple as that.

I believe a class 67 has gone up the Lickey before now pulling mark 3 coaches without any help or assistance needed and since the Lickey is the steepest railway incline within Great Britain, then Devon Banks should be no problem and as Noddy1878 has just commented there have been there on Charter trains already. So what is the issue please other than driver knowledge?

 

[Ash Bridge]

I believe a class 67 has gone up the Lickey before now pulling mark 3 coaches without any help or assistance needed and since the Lickey is the steepest railway incline within Great Britain, then Devon Banks should be no problem and as Noddy1878 has just commented there have been there on Charter trains already. So what is the issue please other than driver knowledge?

Well a possible issue is that a charter train is a one off service, more than likely running during the daytime, whereas the sleeper operates during the early hours all year round, and during the Autumn and winter months is likely to encounter less then favourable rail conditions. The 67 only has around half the tractive effort of a 47/57 so the operators would need prove they are capable before ditching the 57s. And of course I could be completely wrong here, after all Iam just an armchair enthusiast

 

[hello]

didnt 67's used to work mail trains to/from plymouth on a regular basis?

 

[RobShipway]

Well a possible issue is that a charter train is a one off service, more than likely running during the daytime, whereas the sleeper operates during the early hours all year round, and during the Autumn and winter months is likely to encounter less then favourable rail conditions. The 67 only has around half the tractive effort of a 47/57 so the operators would need prove they are capable before ditching the 57s. And of course I could be completely wrong here, after all Iam just an armchair enthusiast

I am just an armchair enthusiast as well, but I believe that a class 67 could do a better and more reliable job on the Night sleeper than the Class 57's which are using traction motors that are from Class 56's that where introduced prior to the HST's where introduced on the GWML.

I also believe that the reconditioned EMD engines that they use are not that much younger than the traction motors and this is on a frame that was introduced in the early 1960's, which means that it is almost if not over 50 years old.

I was born in 1969 and I am 45. the Class 47's where introduced between 1962 - 1968, that means the youngest is 46 years old with the oldest being over 50 years old. I am not sure the age of the donated class 47's, but to me they are past their sell by date. Better to have a 15/16 year old class 67 doing the sleeper service.

I have got a few days off before Easter and was thinking about taking the sleeper service down to Penzance overnight, but given the issues I think I will postpone until there is more reliable traction on the service.

The above is also making the point that people at FGW should recognise, in that if taking the sleeper service is pointing enthusiasts like me off, because of the reliability what is it doing to those that are not enthusiasts or have to take the service regularly? I am pretty sure that there will have been some people going over to flying or taking a coach instead.

 

[83G/84D]

It may not just be lack of driver knowledge regarding the 67s, but are they proven machines on the Devon banks?

Don't forget that Class 67's were regulars over the South Devon banks when they worked the postal trains.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Don't forget that Class 67's were regulars over the South Devon banks when they worked the postal trains.

Yes, fair comment. I wasn't suggesting they weren't capable but merely asking if they were suitable, as if from a FGW/NR perspective. Surely they would run trials with them before committing to full 67 operation?

 

[noddy1878]

didnt 67's used to work mail trains to/from plymouth on a regular basis?

Yes. Completely forgot about that!

 

[Murph]

Yes, fair comment. I wasn't suggesting they weren't capable but merely asking if they were suitable, as if from a FGW/NR perspective. Surely they would run trials with them before committing to full 67 operation?

Perhaps DBS should do some stealth marketing by positioning some 67s in suitable locations to act as thunderbirds. With current 57 reliability, it should only take a few days before the opportunity presents itself for them to prove their suitability via rescuing, with the extra weight of a dead 57 to demonstrate that their locos could cope with ease.