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FCC Staff Shortage

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Aictos

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Well according to one of the GN drivers I know, Moir is now taking a closer interest in FCC operations and FCC has asked the DfT for permission to run a emergency timetable on the GN like they have done so on the TL but so far it seems the DfT has refused to give the needed permission.

Also, all GN depots are now refusing to work their rest days in line with the TL depots so expect the disruption to continue for a while.
 
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jon0844

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He can **** off if he wants to introduce an emergency timetable on the GN side!

At the same time, I think it's time the drivers make it perfectly clear what they're actually after. Clearly they're no longer after a nice 'thank you' for their hard work and want to raise the stakes.

It's time this was sorted for good.
 

Roger That

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Just going back to your earlier post, Jon, I don't think 3% is unreasonable given that FCC have done very well thank you very much. If they had made a loss then it's a different matter, obviously and it amazes me that so many intelligent people fall for the 'recession' red herring put about by companies and Tories to keep wages (and wage rises) low.
 

jon0844

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What the hell have the Tories got to do with this? Last time I checked, they weren't in power!
 

Roger That

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What the hell have the Tories got to do with this? Last time I checked, they weren't in power!

No, thank God, but they (or rather their apologists/sympathisers/fervent followers) do tend to run most large businesses in this country, and treat the workers accordingly.
 

SWT Driver

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Just remember that the Tories nearly bankrupted the country TWICE, they sold most of the countries assets to foreigners & screwed up the rail network for good.

Think Labour's any better, nah. They're the same as the Tories, greedy & just as inept.
 

thelem

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Just going back to your earlier post, Jon, I don't think 3% is unreasonable given that FCC have done very well thank you very much. If they had made a loss then it's a different matter, obviously and it amazes me that so many intelligent people fall for the 'recession' red herring put about by companies and Tories to keep wages (and wage rises) low.

And what about if next year passenger numbers go down and FCC make a loss. Will the drivers then be willing to accept a pay cut to help out poor old First? I doubt it.

FCC should be paying a fair wage that is competitive with others in the industry and similar jobs in other industries. My understanding is that on that baaia drivers are paid pretty well. If you disagree please post why, not just '0% is an insult'.

I also notice no one has mentioned how FCCs revenue is changing next year. They will have fewer passengers due to the recession, be running more trains due to TLP, and their average fare will decrease* - hardly a time to be giving above-inflation** pay rises!

*http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/Main.php?sEvent=News&sFileName=News.php&iId=204
**http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=19
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just come across this on BBC News: "'Half UK firms' plan pay freeze"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8362169.stm
 

Roger That

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And what about if next year passenger numbers go down and FCC make a loss. Will the drivers then be willing to accept a pay cut to help out poor old First? I doubt it.

FCC should be paying a fair wage that is competitive with others in the industry and similar jobs in other industries. My understanding is that on that baaia drivers are paid pretty well. If you disagree please post why, not just '0% is an insult'.

I also notice no one has mentioned how FCCs revenue is changing next year. They will have fewer passengers due to the recession, be running more trains due to TLP, and their average fare will decrease* - hardly a time to be giving above-inflation** pay rises!

*http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/Main.php?sEvent=News&sFileName=News.php&iId=204
**http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?ID=19
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just come across this on BBC News: "'Half UK firms' plan pay freeze"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8362169.stm

I have no problem with taking a pay freeze if the Company is struggling, personally.

Driver rates of pay are notoriously difficult to compare between different companies due to length of turn, compulsory Sunday working, Bank Holiday arrangements, Annual Leave entitlements and a whole load of other issues. What I will say is that on FCC the Driver effectively does two jobs: that of a Driver and Guard. On NXEC, for example, the combined wage of these two members of staff is getting on for a basic £70k so I do not think for one moment that we are wildly overpaid for the work that we do on FCC. I'm not sure how can can compare pay in "simlar jobs in other industries", when there are none, unless you think it's akin to being a Bus Driver.

As for your final point, and aside from the fact that FCC's revenue is propped up by you (the Taxpayer) in times of strife, and ignoring the fact that Moir Lockhead has said First is "recession proof", the figures for 2010's revenue would seem to me to be irrelevant considering how we are conducting 2009's salary review. Please don't tell me that we should take next years 'if's, but's and maybe's' into account, else it provides a nice get out for rogue companies like FCC to just wait untill the figures look suitably favourable for them to negotiate the lowest possible deal, irrespective of the pay revie anniversary date. Which by the way is seven months overdue!
 

73110

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I have no problem with taking a pay freeze if the Company is struggling, personally.

I would agree with that too. Don't know anyone who wouldn't to be honest. But they are not struggling though are they.........
 

ungreat

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No they aren't...and I wouldn't have any problem with a pay freeze either,but I do object to being strung along!

I would like the comparison with "similar jobs within other industries" explained too!
 

thelem

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Driver rates of pay are notoriously difficult to compare between different companies due to length of turn, compulsory Sunday working, Bank Holiday arrangements, Annual Leave entitlements and a whole load of other issues.

Yes, just as in any industry there are many factors to a job, so it is impossible to compare like with like. As far as I can tell a typical FCC driver will be earning about £40k basic plus pension and free travel for a 35 hour working week. I can't find the exact figures now, but I think £40 is something like the top 10%. The average UK salary is about £25k, 35 hour minimum wage would be about £11k. [citation needed] My point being train drivers aren't underpaid compared to the general population.

A similar job would be something with requiring similar qualificaitons and responsibility. If the goverment closed the railways tomorrow and offered drivers the oportunity to retrain in anything they wanted, what you would do? Based on the data at http://www.mysalary.co.uk/2008-salary-data.php train drivers earn more than teachers and nurses, and comparible with policemen and nucleur safety engineers. I picked those because they are hard working, skilled professions, but feel free to post your own comparisons.

What I will say is that on FCC the Driver effectively does two jobs: that of a Driver and Guard. On NXEC, for example, the combined wage of these two members of staff is getting on for a basic £70k so I do not think for one moment that we are wildly overpaid for the work that we do on FCC.

Are you trying to argue that with DOO a driver should be paid two wages? Yes, a DOO driver has extra duties, but you don't normally see them answering passengers questions or selling tickets! Some of the guard's job moves to platform staff, and some to automated systems like the video screens.

I assume you'll be campaigning for a pay reduction when automatic train operation comes in, as the driver will not be needed for a period of the train journey - only fair they are not paid for it.

As for your final point, and aside from the fact that FCC's revenue is propped up by you (the Taxpayer) in times of strife,

Oh great, so if First are bullied into making over-generous pay offers then I can pay for them! And this is meant to convince me that the drivers need a payrise?

and ignoring the fact that Moir Lockhead has said First is "recession proof", the figures for 2010's revenue would seem to me to be irrelevant considering how we are conducting 2009's salary review. Please don't tell me that we should take next years 'if's, but's and maybe's' into account, else it provides a nice get out for rogue companies like FCC to just wait untill the figures look suitably favourable for them to negotiate the lowest possible deal, irrespective of the pay revie anniversary date.

They should be looking both back and forward - how have things changed since the last pay review, and how are they likely to change before the next one. They should be looking at the driver market and inflation though, not their corporate profits, although healthy profits allow them room to be a little more generous, and losses will mean they have to be more careful.

Companies often make losses for years, supported by investors who believe they can turn the business round and make a profit. Those investors wouldn't exist if they weren't allowed to take money from companies that are doing well, and the country would be a worse place for it.

If First's profits are excessive, then that is because the Government has not negioated a good deal on the franchise. If we ignore the investors, then excess money should go into improving the services, not to the group of employees who are most easily able to blackmail management.

Which by the way is seven months overdue!

That's one point you have got my support on. If they have a time of announcing pay reviews then they should stick to it. They should also have enough staff to run their service without relying on overtime.
 

thelem

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Thanks. I'm still waiting for a good reason why the drivers feel they are entitled to a pay rise, other that "First are doing well and I want some of it". I've yet to see how they are underpaid compared to others in the industry or what they have done in the last year to entitle them to an above-inflation pay rise.
 

SomersetChris

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I think that you will find it is not so much the pay rise, but the principle. FCC drivers were due a pay rise back in April. First Group have been dragging their heels virtually all year and now suddenly want to give their drivers a 0% payrise backdated to April. Yes I did say backdated! I think that the drivers would have been more happy to listen if First Group had walked up to the table in February and said they cannot afford a payrise, but they have taken this long to even say it. There is that coupled with the dividends that are being paid to shareholders as well which has got most drivers backs up.
 

73110

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Thanks. I'm still waiting for a good reason why the drivers feel they are entitled to a pay rise, other that "First are doing well and I want some of it". I've yet to see how they are underpaid compared to others in the industry or what they have done in the last year to entitle them to an above-inflation pay rise.

I am gobsmacked at this! The drivers helped the company out substantially twice over the last year. First they had the 377 training where they had to cover more than 8 drivers a day who came off the roster to do their 377 training. This was covered by drivers working their rest days. There was also the new Sevenoaks route learning program. This meant a few drivers being off at the same time to cover that, again, goodwill, drivers coming in and helping out on their days off. How on earth doi you think they got this training done, goodwill by the people who worked overtime. Even drivers I know who don't usually work rest days came in and worked to help out. There are loads more instances of drivers putting themselves out to help out, to keep the job running, absolutely loads. This is what I say when I say drivers are not happy with the offer. The company didn't even say thank you for the help. The offer of 0% (backdated though) is an incredible kick in the the teeth to everyone who contributed to the success of the training over the last year or so.

other that "First are doing well and I want some of it"

See my reply above and if you had read this thread you would see all along this is why they are annoyed.

I've yet to see how they are underpaid compared to others in the industry

Traditionally Thameslink have earned more than Southern at Brighton. This is due to the high mileage involved and it's all DOO work. Southern have guards to help them out if it all goes wrong. Now though Southern are earning more than them for the first time.

or what they have done in the last year to entitle them to an above-inflation pay rise.

Again, see my reply above. If you actually read this thread (and others) you would see why, everyone else can!!!!!!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just to add that the company also lied to everyone about this. If they had offered the 0% back in April when the talks started then they knew the drivers would go mad and stop overtime.

They knew this so deliberately strung everyone along until now when most of the training is done. If all this would have kicked off months ago the 377 training would be no where near complete, that would be a disaster and the route learning would have been affected too. They lied until now deliberately. Even up until recently they out the cancellations down to driver training. There were only three drivers training at that time! Blatent lies!
 

jon0844

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That's one point you have got my support on. If they have a time of announcing pay reviews then they should stick to it. They should also have enough staff to run their service without relying on overtime.

But the 40% of drivers who do the overtime would hate to lose this way of earning a serious amount of extra money. If FCC does take on more drivers, that means nearly half of the drivers are going to lose out. No pay rise is going to compensate.
 

DjU

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I am gobsmacked at this! The drivers helped the company out substantially twice over the last year. First they had the 377 training where they had to cover more than 8 drivers a day who came off the roster to do their 377 training. This was covered by drivers working their rest days. There was also the new Sevenoaks route learning program. This meant a few drivers being off at the same time to cover that, again, goodwill, drivers coming in and helping out on their days off. How on earth doi you think they got this training done, goodwill by the people who worked overtime. Even drivers I know who don't usually work rest days came in and worked to help out. There are loads more instances of drivers putting themselves out to help out, to keep the job running, absolutely loads. This is what I say when I say drivers are not happy with the offer. The company didn't even say thank you for the help. The offer of 0% (backdated though) is an incredible kick in the the teeth to everyone who contributed to the success of the training over the last year or so.

If was truly about this then surely that would be better covered by a one off "Bonus" - not an incremental pay rise.
 

jon0844

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Yes, a one-off bonus would be the ideal option - but I guess the drivers would want an on-going thank you.
 

O L Leigh

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This has been covered at so many times and in so many ways already that I'm still struggling to understand why it's still causing so much discussion. I believe that the drivers have already given their justifications for feeling they deserve a pay rise. Offering a one-off bonus is not going to cut it.

It seems that First are just another company trying to hide behind "the recession" in order to dupe their staff out of a pay rise. Quite honestly if it's good enough for the brass and the shareholders it should be good enough for the staff also. The taxpayer isn't suddenly going to be asked to underwrite First to an extent greater than they already are just because the staff get a raise.

O L Leigh
 

Greenback

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This has been covered at so many times and in so many ways already that I'm still struggling to understand why it's still causing so much discussion. I believe that the drivers have already given their justifications for feeling they deserve a pay rise. Offering a one-off bonus is not going to cut it.

It seems that First are just another company trying to hide behind "the recession" in order to dupe their staff out of a pay rise. Quite honestly if it's good enough for the brass and the shareholders it should be good enough for the staff also. The taxpayer isn't suddenly going to be asked to underwrite First to an extent greater than they already are just because the staff get a raise.

O L Leigh

Agree 100%!
 

Roger That

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As far as I can tell a typical FCC driver will be earning about £40k
£38k actually, but what's £2k between friends.

I can't find the exact figures now, but I think £40 is something like the top 10%.
I do not have those figures. I would be surprised if it was in the top 10% but as has been mentioned previously headline salary can be misleading when other conditions have to be taken into account

The average UK salary is about £25k, 35 hour minimum wage would be about £11k. [citation needed] My point being train drivers aren't underpaid compared to the general population.
Er, ok that is fair comment, just totally irrelevant to this thread.

Are you trying to argue that with DOO a driver should be paid two wages?
No.

Yes, a DOO driver has extra duties, but you don't normally see them answering passengers questions or selling tickets!
I answer passengers questions several times a day.

I assume you'll be campaigning for a pay reduction when automatic train operation comes in, as the driver will not be needed for a period of the train journey - only fair they are not paid for it.
Now you are just making yourself look like a buffoon. The Driver will still be needed when/if this operation comes in.

Oh great, so if First are bullied into making over-generous pay offers then I can pay for them! And this is meant to convince me that the drivers need a payrise?
"Bullied" and "over-generous" are your choice of words but I feel you have deliberately missed the point anyway. The back up money is from the Government and is in relation to ticket revenues, not staff salaries, but I suspect you knew this anyway.

They should be looking both back and forward - how have things changed since the last pay review, and how are they likely to change before the next one. They should be looking at the driver market and inflation though, not their corporate profits, although healthy profits allow them room to be a little more generous, and losses will mean they have to be more careful.

Now i'm a little confused. Are you suggesting that it should be market forces that govern a Drivers salary. I'm all for this if you are! And there's more that we agree on!! Your points about healthy profits allowing more room for the company to be a little more generous are very well put, especially as First Group profits are up by 5.2%. Luckily the losses to which you refer, and would mean the company would have to be more careful have failed to materialise.

If First's profits are excessive, then that is because the Government has not negioated a good deal on the franchise. If we ignore the investors, then excess money should go into improving the services, not to the group of employees who are most easily able to blackmail management.
So after having a request asking a small percentage slice of the £multi-millions made by First Group out of the Rail network that was helped to be generated by hard working staff, the said staff turning round and telling First to stick their overtime is blackmail? Not the best choice of words.
 

thelem

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I think that you will find it is not so much the pay rise, but the principle. FCC drivers were due a pay rise back in April. First Group have been dragging their heels virtually all year and now suddenly want to give their drivers a 0% payrise backdated to April. Yes I did say backdated!

OK, fair point. I'd not understood previously that drivers had been expecting their actual pay rise last April, I thought that was when their pay deal had been due to be announced.

Seems very odd behaviour on First's part to ask people to work for an unannounced salary and I'm surprised the union let them get away with it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
377 training ... drivers working their rest days. ... Even drivers I know who don't usually work rest days came in and worked to help out. There are loads more instances of drivers putting themselves out to help out, to keep the job running, absolutely loads.

Was this a case of lots of overtime being announced, and people jumping at the opportunity, or was it a case of managers putting pressure on drivers to help the company out?

If the former, then the drivers in question have already received appropriate compensation in the form of their overtime pay.
If the latter, then a one-off bonus would seem fair.

Traditionally Thameslink have earned more than Southern at Brighton. This is due to the high mileage involved and it's all DOO work. Southern have guards to help them out if it all goes wrong. Now though Southern are earning more than them for the first time.

That's a good argument for a pay rise. Has there been a long term trend of Southern getting larger pay deals? If so, why? How significant did the pay differentce used to be?

Is it easy for drivers to transfer from FCC to Southern if there are vacancies?

Just to add that the company also lied to everyone about this. If they had offered the 0% back in April when the talks started then they knew the drivers would go mad and stop overtime.

Agreed, but the union should have acted in April.
 

Roger That

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Agreed, but the union should have acted in April.

It's not as simple as that. Traditionally the Railway has dragged it's heels come paying up time and I would say that the average month the pay rise is actually seen on the payslip is October. This is after the usual two or three months of wrangling/pleading poverty/table thumping from various sides. Most staff wouldn't normally be that bothered as you would get a nice lump of back pay in time for Christmas, which at 0%, or even 1%, you obviously won't this year.
 

thelem

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£38k actually, but what's £2k between friends.

Not much when comparing salaries - my point was that train drivers earn a decent wage.

Yes, a DOO driver has extra duties, but you don't normally see them answering passengers questions or selling tickets!
I answer passengers questions several times a day.

Sorry, I should have clarified 'while driving'. My point was DOO is not as good as driver + guard, but it is cheaper which is a good thing. (hopefully the savings can be put back into the rail network).

"Bullied" and "over-generous" are your choice of words but I feel you have deliberately missed the point anyway. The back up money is from the Government and is in relation to ticket revenues, not staff salaries, but I suspect you knew this anyway.

Yes, I think I did miss the point on that one, and was forgetting that the deals are based on ticket revenues. Still, when the franchise renewal comes round the bidders will look at the cost of running the franchise, and the higher those costs are the less money they will give to the government / the more money they will ask for from the government, so it does ultimately affect the tax payer.

Now i'm a little confused. Are you suggesting that it should be market forces that govern a Drivers salary. I'm all for this if you are!

Yes, I am. Those market forces being what a driver can earn elsewhere (another TOC or another profession), what a driver requires to sustain their lifestyle (i.e. inflation) and the working conditions.
 

thelem

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But the 40% of drivers who do the overtime would hate to lose this way of earning a serious amount of extra money. If FCC does take on more drivers, that means nearly half of the drivers are going to lose out. No pay rise is going to compensate.

Then the drivers should be offered contracts with more hours per week. If unions don't like that, then they should not be supporting routine overtime either.

Either way, First should know how many driver hours they are going to have from one week to the next.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It's not as simple as that. Traditionally the Railway has dragged it's heels come paying up time and I would say that the average month the pay rise is actually seen on the payslip is October. This is after the usual two or three months of wrangling/pleading poverty/table thumping from various sides. Most staff wouldn't normally be that bothered as you would get a nice lump of back pay in time for Christmas, which at 0%, or even 1%, you obviously won't this year.

But by allowing that to continue the union are leaving themselves open to First offering a below expected pay offer.

I don't know how you make it happen, but it seems the pay negioations should start in Dec / Jan so they can be finished by the time they actually need to be applied.

I think I've replied to all the responses to my posts. If I've skipped over any key points please PM them to me again and I'll respond to those in the thread.
 

Tom C

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I don't know how you make it happen, but it seems the pay negioations should start in Dec / Jan so they can be finished by the time they actually need to be applied.

In most cases pay awards are based on a lot of factors, one of which is the RPI figure for Feburary of each award year.
 

thelem

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In most cases pay awards are based on a lot of factors, one of which is the RPI figure for Feburary of each award year.

Then make it RPI for January, or have the pay award in May. RPI is annualised anyway, so it doesn't really matter as any difference will apply to the precceding/following year.
 
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