Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[Caaardiff]

Reading between the lines leasing 67s for longer is effectively buying time for bi-mode/battery technology to improve and for (hopefully) a better financial position to start looking at replacement. Wouldn't be hugely suprised if some 197 replacement was factored in too with a then consistent product offering 1st and kitchen on every service, the displaced 197s can cause an internal cascade seeing off the 153s and 230s and capacity enhancement elsewhere. Heading firmly into speculation territory there though!!

As it stands like you say the money just isn't freely flowing, any withdrawal of Mk4s would almost certainly just see shortforms elsewhere and the Marches heading back to mostly 2 and 3 car 197s every hour.

It would be a shame to go back on the First product idea for Manchester. TFW are in a position where reliability is improving and once all the new fleet is in they can really work on rebuilding reputation, which has been destroyed over recent years under TFW and Arriva.
How much life is left in the Mk4 coaches? Aren't they over 30 years old?
How much work would be required to get the coaches compatible with any new loco? If that isn't worth the time and investment, what other coaches would be available?

 

[sd0733]

It would be a shame to go back on the First product idea for Manchester. TFW are in a position where reliability is improving and once all the new fleet is in they can really work on rebuilding reputation, which has been destroyed over recent years under TFW and Arriva.
How much life is left in the Mk4 coaches? Aren't they over 30 years old?
How much work would be required to get the coaches compatible with any new loco? If that isn't worth the time and investment, what other coaches would be available?

The First Class to Manchester is proving extremely popular so there's almost no way it'll be scrapped, that's why I think the next fleet will have more services running with it.

I guess Life expiry is really when the decision is made that the repair/maintenance bill costs more than benefit they bring. The Mk4s suffer mostly from obsolete parts, many of those parts are planned (hoped!) to be replaced by modern equivalents or at least are being investigated such as WSP racks (wheelslip) and Stat Cons (power) which should make a big difference to down time.

They're planned for an OL2 (I think that's the correct term) starting in 2026 which will give them a thorough internal, external and mechanical overhaul which should see them through another few years but there does become a point where costs must overtake reality but there seems no expectation that their life will be over soon and with the EC fleet up for grabs, a good supply of spare coaches and parts could be obtained.

I don't know that much about that side of things but I believe for mods to something like a 68 basically involves taking out all the 67 mods and starting again. Not sure of anything else available other than the Mk5s but I think the manufacturer of those puts those down the pecking order with another troublesome fleet already at TfW coming from there!

 

[Newp410]

It would be a shame to go back on the First product idea for Manchester. TFW are in a position where reliability is improving and once all the new fleet is in they can really work on rebuilding reputation, which has been destroyed over recent years under TFW and Arriva.
How much life is left in the Mk4 coaches? Aren't they over 30 years old?
How much work would be required to get the coaches compatible with any new loco? If that isn't worth the time and investment, what other coaches would be available?

There aren't any other coaches available, although I wouldn't be surprised if some of the LNER mk4s find their way to TfW when LNER receive their CAF replacements.

Work is being done to improve loco availability, 67016 is imminent and now 67028 is also being worked on for its return.

 

[craigybagel]

How much work would be required to get the coaches compatible with any new loco? If that isn't worth the time and investment, what other coaches would be available?

I don't know that much about that side of things but I believe for mods to something like a 68 basically involves taking out all the 67 mods and starting again. Not sure of anything else available other than the Mk5s but I think the manufacturer of those puts those down the pecking order with another troublesome fleet already at TfW coming from there!

I'm not an expert either but I think most of the work was the other way around, getting the loco to work with the coaches. The coaches don't really care what's dragging them along. The mods to the 67s just added some more functionality we didn't have with the MKIIIs, such as a functional cab to cab radio, and interlock.

As I understand it the MK5s are are lot more complex, requiring a functioning TCMS system in the coaches and a loco that can talk to them. If they were to come to TfW, the 68s or some other similarly modern loco would probably need to come with them as well.

 

[Caaardiff]

Thanks. Some interesting points there.

I do wonder if it would be better using the Holyhead Mk4 set to work the 5th diagram which is 2 round trips to Manchester. And the Holyhead - Cardiff - Holyhead services become a 197 diagram and the spare mk4 set drops in when it's available.
I know the WG would unlikely allow it but surely if you remove the politics aspect from it it makes more sense to concentrate them on Manchester services. If the diagram was always meant to be a mk4 then there should be stabling space at Canton for it.

 

[sd0733]

I'm not an expert either but I think most of the work was the other way around, getting the loco to work with the coaches. The coaches don't really care what's dragging them along. The mods to the 67s just added some more functionality we didn't have with the MKIIIs, such as a functional cab to cab radio, and interlock.

In all honesty I think I'm getting mixed with what was added for SDO and what were the loco mods, it all becomes one after a while.
I believe the general mods on the rakes were in the DVT to 'trick' it into thinking there was a 91 at the other end when the DVT was leading and not a 67. An extremely basic description I know!!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Sep 2024 ==

Thanks. Some interesting points there.

I do wonder if it would be better using the Holyhead Mk4 set to work the 5th diagram which is 2 round trips to Manchester. And the Holyhead - Cardiff - Holyhead services become a 197 diagram and the spare mk4 set drops in when it's available.
I know the WG would unlikely allow it but surely if you remove the politics aspect from it it makes more sense to concentrate them on Manchester services. If the diagram was always meant to be a mk4 then there should be stabling space at Canton for it.

The Holyhead as it stands doesn't really make that much difference to the majority of diagrams.
The morning one goes straight back out on a Manchester and the afternoon one does a Manchester in the morning. In theory if the 1714 was scrapped then you could use the rake to form the 1449 Manchester but that's about all you could gain as it stands.

The bigger bonus is on Saturdays where the Holyhead set is lost all weekend so would require 1 less set. On the flip side it adds more pressure to Crewe and Canton for stabling as they'll get to capacity much quicker without a set at Holyhead every night.

 

[craigybagel]

In all honesty I think I'm getting mixed with what was added for SDO and what were the loco mods, it all becomes one after a while.
I believe the general mods on the rakes were in the DVT to 'trick' it into thinking there was a 91 at the other end when the DVT was leading and not a 67. An extremely basic description I know!!

Just thinking about it, I did miss the rather big mod of fitting the MKIVs with AAR! We don't use the original TDM system for working the loco. Plus they had to cut notches into the power handle in the DVT to match the 8 notches on the loco. So I'm probably guilty of oversimplifying things myself!

I do wonder if it would be better using the Holyhead Mk4 set to work the 5th diagram which is 2 round trips to Manchester. And the Holyhead - Cardiff - Holyhead services become a 197 diagram and the spare mk4 set drops in when it's available.
I know the WG would unlikely allow it but surely if you remove the politics aspect from it it makes more sense to concentrate them on Manchester services. If the diagram was always meant to be a mk4 then there should be stabling space at Canton for it.

If you removed the politics it would be a very different operator all around. But it's pretty safe to say any attempt to pull Gerald would be unacceptable, no matter how much easier it might make things from an operational perspective. I can see Manchester going all 197s before Holyhead loses it's daily dining train.

 

[Northerngirl]

As much as i hate them, Wouldn't a 6 car diesel 397 be the best replacement, given that it's essentially the same as the civitys they have now

 

[sd0733]

Just thinking about it, I did miss the rather big mod of fitting the MKIVs with AAR! We don't use the original TDM system for working the loco. Plus they had to cut notches into the power handle in the DVT to match the 8 notches on the loco. So I'm probably guilty of oversimplifying things myself!

Amazing what gets forgotten in the midst of time. Some of it now is pretty much just accepted it's there and feels almost like that's always been the way!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Sep 2024 ==

As much as i hate them, Wouldn't a 6 car diesel 397 be the best replacement, given that it's essentially the same as the civitys they have now

On paper something like that would have been a better bet than 197/Mk4 to begin with.

Where things are now though there's no desire (or budget) to replace the Mk4s in the short term anyway. They're booked for their major overhauls in a couple of years and some other mods in the short term so they're not going anywhere just yet.

 

[Rhydgaled]

HSTs were supposedly looked at for Holyhead, but the costs of getting them into service would have been much higher than with 67s - and if they had gone down that route, they'd probably have to deal now with ASLEF's justifiable concerns about their cab safety.

Also, according to some comments on the ScotRail HST thread, when the XC125, Castle HST and ScotRail HST PRM refurbishments were done (with the sliding exterior doors) some problems were introduced which still haven't been fixed (internal sliding doors, for example).

The "requirement for a restaurant service" says it all to me.

They are lovely trains, no doubt, but this is not an Intercity route by any stretch and more 197s would have given far more flexibility.

I would argue that Manchester-Swansea fits relatively well as an InterCity route; that title is rather harder to justify for Cardiff-Holyhead though.

I have made some more-speculative responses in a new thread here:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Sep 2024 ==

I'm not an expert either but I think most of the work was the other way around, getting the loco to work with the coaches. The coaches don't really care what's dragging them along. The mods to the 67s just added some more functionality we didn't have with the MKIIIs, such as a functional cab to cab radio, and interlock.

Way back in this thread somebody mentioned mark 4b and mark 4c classifications. Not much detail on what the differences are unfortunately (can anyone help here?) but if I understood correctly the DVT (mark 4c?) has lost the ability to work with TDM-fitted locos (eg. class 91s) but the coaches (mark 4b?) could in theory work with either?

 

[37052 xb mr]

Any idea whats happened to
67010 off Fridays 1V50
At Canton please ?

 

[sd0733]

Any idea whats happened to
67010 off Fridays 1V50
At Canton please ?

Not entirely sure what's wrong with it but it's got faults and was put onto HD06 which Is also under repair from issues found on its recent exam.

 

[37052 xb mr]

Ok, Thank you

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Today at Crewe (16/9/24):

67025 connect to HD01
HD07 without a loco.

 

[sd0733]

Today at Crewe (16/9/24):

67025 connect to HD01
HD07 without a loco.

If all goes to plan 67014 off HD03 should go onto HD07 tonight to allow that back in service and HD03 stops for its exam.

Moderator note: as the trains are now in service, there is no need for a rolling stock introduction thread; there is, however, a new thread for anyone who is planning a journey, currently travelling, or has travelled and posting their experiences, and equiries/updates relating to allocations etc :

TfW Class 67+Mk4 sets: trip planning/experiences, diagram updates etc

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ex-lner-and-grand-central-mark-4-sets-for-tfw.182406 What are the chances of a 67/Mark 4 set on the Cardiff-Holyhead tomorrow evening please? I'm hoping for dinner on board.

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