Ex LNER (and Grand Central) Mark 4 sets for TfW

[BillStampy]

Tomorrow should be:
67020+HD02 1W11 1V37 1W96
67015+HD03 1V91 1W57 1V46 1W65 1J76
67010+HD04 1V33 1W19 1V50
67014+HD07 1V31 1W55 1V42 1W96

67025+HD01 Major exam at Crewe
67008+HD05 Minor exam at Crewe
No 67 with HD06 at Canton

Tonight's move of 67017+67022 is planned overnight https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:07421/2024-09-12/detailed

I'm guessing you mean 1W23 for HD07..? Don't think two sets would want to do the same service

Thanks as always though!

 

[sd0733]

I'm guessing you mean 1W23 for HD07..? Don't think two sets would want to do the same service

Thanks as always though!

Yes that's the one!! Amended accordingly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Sep 2024 ==

What I do not understand with this fleet is that even minor exams appear to be done in the daytime, rather than overnight like virtually every other fleet. Major exams are different of course.

Loco exams are generally done overnight but the rake ones are scheduled to take approx 48 hours for the A, S and Z exams so always run across a couple of daytimes. They have been sped up significantly since the start but do seem pretty stretched out compared to other fleets exams.

 

[37052 xb mr]

Hello
Please does anyone know
If today’s 5Z51
15.30 Crewe TMD E - Cardiff Canton
Was a 67 ?
Thanks

 

[sd0733]

Hello
Please does anyone know
If today’s 5Z51
15.30 Crewe TMD E - Cardiff Canton
Was a 67 ?
Thanks

Was planned to be 150251 after tyre turning

 

[absolutelymilk]

Union connectivity will start in December, and then enhanced from December 2025.

What exactly is the union connectivity service? Someone asked but I didn't spot a reply

 

[37052 xb mr]

Was planned to be 150251 after tyre turning

Thanks

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Are there any plans for using a set on a Manchester-North Wales diagram, once they start running to Bangor & Holyhead, instead of Llandudno?

Not currently any plans for this.

 

[Lurcheroo]

What exactly is the union connectivity service? Someone asked but I didn't spot a reply

Union connectivity review: final report

Makes recommendations to improve transport connectivity and enhance quality of life and economic opportunities across the UK.

www.gov.uk

It says :

“Makes recommendations to improve transport connectivity and enhance quality of life and economic opportunities across the UK.”

But I’ve just looked at it so can’t say any more sorry.

 

[BillStampy]

Unfortunately it seems another week goes by without the 5th diagram, next week isn't happening either. Week after still shows possibility, but not certainty.

 

[sd0733]

Unfortunately it seems another week goes by without the 5th diagram, next week isn't happening either. Week after still shows possibility, but not certainty.

The week after is extremely unlikely as is the week after and the week after and so on!
More than likely that the best case now is the December timetable change I believe.

 

[BillStampy]

The week after is extremely unlikely as is the week after and the week after and so on!
More than likely that the best case now is the December timetable change I believe.

Unfortunate case of that I'm afraid... after a random spot of bad performance, the decision to run it simply changes just like that.

 

[sd0733]

Unfortunate case of that I'm afraid... after a random spot of bad performance, the decision to run it simply changes just like that.

AFAIK there's more to it than just the sets. There's a variety of reasons including Crew diagraming for preps and other issues I believe. It's possible it'll start sooner if at all possible but seems then is now most likely unfortunately.

 

[43096]

AFAIK there's more to it than just the sets. There's a variety of reasons including Crew diagraming for preps and other issues I believe. It's possible it'll start sooner if at all possible but seems then is now most likely unfortunately.

It's not like TfW have a surplus of trains is it...

 

[sd0733]

It's not like TfW have a surplus of trains is it...

Not at all, theyre all in equally dire positions! Hopefully a workaround can be found even if to start with it's just running the afternoon portion like started to happen weeks ago then fizzled out without a trace

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Sep 2024 ==

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Things have hit a real low point with loco availability such that only 3 diagrams will start out tomorrow with no working locos/sets on Canton for the early departure.
67015 is planned to head light engine from Crewe to work the evening Holyhead.

To cover for the dismal availability Colas 67027 is still on hire to cover as both north and south recovery loco based at Coleham.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Things have hit a real low point with loco availability such that only 3 diagrams will start out tomorrow with no working locos/sets on Canton for the early departure.
67015 is planned to head light engine from Crewe to work the evening Holyhead.

To cover for the dismal availability Colas 67027 is still on hire to cover as both north and south recovery loco based at Coleham.

68’s when? Haha, just kidding that’s been covered to death.

It’s certainly unfortunate considering there’s 13 (?) locos in the TFW pool.

 

[sd0733]

68’s when? Haha, just kidding that’s been covered to death.

It’s certainly unfortunate considering there’s 13 (?) locos in the TFW pool.

I'm sure it'll start again .

12 including 016 but whatever the total number, 3 available in the morning is rather abysmal.

 

[Caaardiff]

Would it not be better to plan for the 5th set to be used but don't sell it as a Mk4? So if one isn't available then it can be subbed for a 197 and not have the issues of having First tickets sold. Given TFW's fleet situation if there does happen to be a spare mk4 set then it should be used.

 

[Anonymous10]

Would it not be better to plan for the 5th set to be used but don't sell it as a Mk4? So if one isn't available then it can be subbed for a 197 and not have the issues of having First tickets sold. Given TFW's fleet situation if there does happen to be a spare mk4 set then it should be used.

Not a bad idea, maybe incorporate into the app that if that train runs a notification is sent that you can upgrade.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I'm sure it'll start again .

12 including 016 but whatever the total number, 3 available in the morning is rather abysmal.

It always come around eventually haha!

Yes agreed there.

Would it not be better to plan for the 5th set to be used but don't sell it as a Mk4? So if one isn't available then it can be subbed for a 197 and not have the issues of having First tickets sold. Given TFW's fleet situation if there does happen to be a spare mk4 set then it should be used.

I have a similar thought with the 230’s. There’s currently 2 a day covering 1 diagram and there was a 3rd as they were using an extra sharp to try and pre-empt summer time issues. If they could try and cover 2 of the diagrams using 3 units a day then it would again just be an extra 197 free’d up in a time where every unit counts.

 

[sd0733]

Would it not be better to plan for the 5th set to be used but don't sell it as a Mk4? So if one isn't available then it can be subbed for a 197 and not have the issues of having First tickets sold. Given TFW's fleet situation if there does happen to be a spare mk4 set then it should be used.

That's pretty much exactly what was happening with the afternoon part a few weeks back, it ran advertised as a unit but as Mk4 when resource allowed.
In all honesty I'm not sure why that was scrapped after a week or so of it happening as there's been unused spare sets since now and again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Sep 2024 ==

It always come around eventually haha!

It does, unfortunately this one couldn't have come at a worse time as the 2 Royal 67s are also in the middle of heavy maintenance alongside the protracted repairs on TFWs 67029 so DBs repair capacity on 67s is pretty stretched as it is.
Many of the faults are very minor such as tail lights, wipers and fuel/coolant leaks but seemingly keep reoccurring so are taking time to investigate, diagnose and fix.

The sets aren't blameless either, both HD06 and 07 are failures in depots and have lost their locos whilst HD03 only has only 2 days to run before it's due heavy exam.

 

[Lurcheroo]

It does, unfortunately this one couldn't have come at a worse time as the 2 Royal 67s are also in the middle of heavy maintenance alongside the protracted repairs on TFWs 67029 so DBs repair capacity on 67s is pretty stretched as it is.
Many of the faults are very minor such as tail lights, wipers and fuel/coolant leaks but seemingly keep reoccurring so are taking time to investigate, diagnose and fix.

The sets aren't blameless either, both HD06 and 07 are failures in depots and have lost their locos whilst HD03 only has only 1 day to run before it's due heavy exam.

Ahh right! That makes sense. Easy to see how small thing can compound.

Hopefully it will be short lived and all in a better spot sooner rather than later.

 

[southernyoshi]

As I've said before I'm only very occasional poster & only a passenger, I don't know about the operational logistics & stuff like that but I can't be the only one who thinks the Mark 4s are more trouble than they're worth & they should've just got more 197s for a standard fleet? Or kept some of the old 175s? If they really wanted or still want an intercity style train then was there ever a way we could've got some of the remodelled HSTs for the Marches?

 

[craigybagel]

As I've said before I'm only very occasional poster & only a passenger, I don't know about the operational logistics & stuff like that but I can't be the only one who thinks the Mark 4s are more trouble than they're worth & they should've just got more 197s for a standard fleet? Or kept some of the old 175s? If they really wanted or still want an intercity style train then was there ever a way we could've got some of the remodelled HSTs for the Marches?

TfW were already committed to a small fleet of MKIVs - they were the most logical choice to meet the franchise requirements for a full restaurant service on Holyhead - Cardiff. From that, when more MKIVs became available with the demise of GC's Blackpool service, it was another logical step to take them on and expand their use to Manchester.

HSTs were supposedly looked at for Holyhead, but the costs of getting them into service would have been much higher than with 67s - and if they had gone down that route, they'd probably have to deal now with ASLEF's justifiable concerns about their cab safety.

 

[Topological]

As I've said before I'm only very occasional poster & only a passenger, I don't know about the operational logistics & stuff like that but I can't be the only one who thinks the Mark 4s are more trouble than they're worth & they should've just got more 197s for a standard fleet? Or kept some of the old 175s? If they really wanted or still want an intercity style train then was there ever a way we could've got some of the remodelled HSTs for the Marches?

No you are very much not alone.

The "requirement for a restaurant service" says it all to me.

They are lovely trains, no doubt, but this is not an Intercity route by any stretch and more 197s would have given far more flexibility.

Be interesting to see a DMU with a restaurant car. It has been done before, so why not a 197?

3 out of 7 sets and 3 out of 16 engines. Just hope things improve as the week goes on.

 

[Cambrian359]

As I've said before I'm only very occasional poster & only a passenger, I don't know about the operational logistics & stuff like that but I can't be the only one who thinks the Mark 4s are more trouble than they're worth & they should've just got more 197s for a standard fleet? Or kept some of the old 175s? If they really wanted or still want an intercity style train then was there ever a way we could've got some of the remodelled HSTs for the Marches?

I’m sure it’s previously been said that the mk4s are a way of attracting & extracting more money from what is said to be TFW only profitable route (via its premium/1st class offering) to help fund the rest of TFW operation.
And to be fair having more 197s which are also having their own significant problems and shortages would just have meant more 150s subbing in…..which going by these forums everyone loves to see happen

 

[Caaardiff]

Although probably costly, and I know they're not the most liked trains, but the better fit would be IETs.
A bi-mode train set up for future electrification and using infrastructure already in place, 5 car sets that also come with a kitchen, and would mean could at least be sent to Carmarthen for a decent West Wales - Manchester service.
The mk4s won't last forever and I can't see an alternative option that would cover all the requirements.

- Holyhead Depot are now familiar with Avanti's.
- The possibilities of utilising Landore alongside Malephant for Hitachi as well as Canton.

- All South Wales - Manchester trains to be IET.
- Clear the Heart of Wales for 197s to cascade them and bin off the 153s.

I can't see Kitchens being put into 197s anytime soon, and given opinions of them I don't think people would like to see more of them.

 

[craigybagel]

Although probably costly, and I know they're not the most liked trains, but the better fit would be IETs.
A bi-mode train set up for future electrification and using infrastructure already in place, 5 car sets that also come with a kitchen, and would mean could at least be sent to Carmarthen for a decent West Wales - Manchester service.
The mk4s won't last forever and I can't see an alternative option that would cover all the requirements.

- Holyhead Depot are now familiar with Avanti's.
- The possibilities of utilising Landore alongside Malephant for Hitachi as well as Canton.

- All South Wales - Manchester trains to be IET.
- Clear the Heart of Wales for 197s to cascade them and bin off the 153s.

I can't see Kitchens being put into 197s anytime soon, and given opinions of them I don't think people would like to see more of them.

As I understand it, IETs are pretty slow on diesel, especially when there's a hill involved (and the Marches has a lot of them). They're super quick on electric - but only a small portion of the route is electrified.

Performance wise you want something closer to a Stadler - near electric levels of acceleration even when running on diesel, max speed 100mph. Stadler famously will build pretty much anything - I'm sure they'd happily cook up an 8 x 15m car bi-mode set with a kitchen.

But this is all very hypothetical. We are where we are and I doubt there's the money for a full replacement of the MKIVs any time soon.

 

[BillStampy]

Speaking of only 3 sets being out, can I have a list of the diagrams tomorrow? Would be well appreciated.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Although probably costly, and I know they're not the most liked trains, but the better fit would be IETs.
A bi-mode train set up for future electrification and using infrastructure already in place, 5 car sets that also come with a kitchen, and would mean could at least be sent to Carmarthen for a decent West Wales - Manchester service.

Pretty much perfectly described Avanti’s 805’s there.

Performance wise you want something closer to a Stadler - near electric levels of acceleration even when running on diesel, max speed 100mph. Stadler famously will build pretty much anything - I'm sure they'd happily cook up an 8 x 15m car bi-mode set with a kitchen.

I think greater anglias ones have some sort of buffet even if not a full kitchen.

 

[sd0733]

As I understand it, IETs are pretty slow on diesel, especially when there's a hill involved (and the Marches has a lot of them). They're super quick on electric - but only a small portion of the route is electrified.

Performance wise you want something closer to a Stadler - near electric levels of acceleration even when running on diesel, max speed 100mph. Stadler famously will build pretty much anything - I'm sure they'd happily cook up an 8 x 15m car bi-mode set with a kitchen.

But this is all very hypothetical. We are where we are and I doubt there's the money for a full replacement of the MKIVs any time soon.

Reading between the lines leasing 67s for longer is effectively buying time for bi-mode/battery technology to improve and for (hopefully) a better financial position to start looking at replacement. Wouldn't be hugely suprised if some 197 replacement was factored in too with a then consistent product offering 1st and kitchen on every service, the displaced 197s can cause an internal cascade seeing off the 153s and 230s and capacity enhancement elsewhere. Heading firmly into speculation territory there though!!

As it stands like you say the money just isn't freely flowing, any withdrawal of Mk4s would almost certainly just see shortforms elsewhere and the Marches heading back to mostly 2 and 3 car 197s every hour.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Sep 2024 ==

Speaking of only 3 sets being out, can I have a list of the diagrams tomorrow? Would be well
appreciated.

67020+HD02 1V91 1W57 etc
67014+HD03 1V31 1W55 etc
67015+HD04 1W96 only
67008+HD05 1V33 1W19 1V50