Euston to Glasgow needs to go half-hourly

[The Planner]

And in a masterful piece of timetabling, actually crossing on Ledburn Junction - a pleasure to observe!

They were geuinely quite chuffed with that one.

 

[Tester]

They were geuinely quite chuffed with that one.

I bet they were!

 

[Bald Rick]

And in a masterful piece of timetabling, actually crossing on Ledburn Junction - a pleasure to observe!

Not when you‘re on a southbound on time Avanti brought to a stand for 5 mintues whilst a late running WMT is put in front of you.

 

[amahy]

I think the fast Marches as an inward is the worst in terms of connecting with the northbound Birmingham to Scotland.

I travel Marches to Scotland and return quite often, and in my opinion, the southbound connection is far worse. 10 minutes at Crewe is simply not enough with Avanti's poor puntuality.

 

[NorthWalian]

The morning TfW Wrexham-Liverpool starts from Shrewsbury at the moment.

My analysis of Avanti 805 services refers to those which run to Holyhead.
It's pretty farfetched to think Chester will not have a direct London service.

North Western Trains/First North Western did plan to run North Wales-Euston when it won the 1997 franchise, in a similar fashion to the Rochdale/Manchester Airport-Euston services.
But within a year or so a black hole had appeared in FNW finances (nothing to do with North Wales) and the whole idea was dropped.
158s/175s on the WCML was always a daft idea anyway, like 197s would be today.

Holyhead-Crewe-Birmingham was cut (and later diverted at Chester via Wrexham and Shrewsbury) when WCRM reduced paths via Stafford for a year in 2002.
These services were mostly loco-hauled on the slow lines and were also sent round the houses between Wolverhampton and New St to turn the stock - fast they were not.

Avanti has very reasonable off-peak return fares to London, and if you start from west of Chester there are minimal time restrictions (code VK).

Whenever Avanti’s fares were fair, the Stafford or Crewe fares are even less

 

[Topological]

I travel Marches to Scotland and return quite often, and in my opinion, the southbound connection is far worse. 10 minutes at Crewe is simply not enough with Avanti's poor puntuality.

I made it as a tight connection in September.

One of those where you almost plan to be an hour late and putting in a delay repay.

 

[Tester]

Not when you‘re on a southbound on time Avanti brought to a stand for 5 mintues whilst a late running WMT is put in front of you.

There's always someone

It's a pleasure to observe when you're on the northbound crossing and the southbound crossing passes you (or v.v.).

As it happens the last time I made the move, we were on time and two Avantis (both late) were given priority - so 15 all

 

[43074]

Not when you‘re on a southbound on time Avanti brought to a stand for 5 mintues whilst a late running WMT is put in front of you.

It's usually the Avanti which are late though, it has to be said.

 

[WibbleWobble]

How about
2tph pendolino London - Preston - Lancaster - Oxenholme 1tph - Penrith 1tph - Carlisle - Glasgow
1tph LNR London - Trent Valley - Crewe - Preston stopper
1tph 80x London - MKC - Nuneaton - Lichfield/Tamworth - Stafford - Crewe - Warrington - Wigan - Preston

Then keep the Edinburgh via Birminghams as is, as well as TPE north of Preston

Everybody is really trying to kill off traffic from Wigan and Warrington northwards! Has anyone actually seen what it can be like heading northwards! I've stood on North Western and seen how busy those services can be, especially with sports fixtures - on one occasion being surrounded by over 200 fans heading north for some sort of fixture!

Also remember that because Liverpool has a limited service to Scotland, Wigan is the recommended place to change trains as there are three per hour onwards.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Everybody is really trying to kill off traffic from Wigan and Warrington northwards! Has anyone actually seen what it can be like heading northwards! I've stood on North Western and seen how busy those services can be, especially with sports fixtures - on one occasion being surrounded by over 200 fans heading north for some sort of fixture!

Also remember that because Liverpool has a limited service to Scotland, Wigan is the recommended place to change trains as there are three per hour onwards.

There are three trains per hour to Scotland from Preston onwards.
Wigan has two.

 

[Zomboid]

A more regular Liverpool to Scotland service would serve Wigan, though Warrington is in that perfect spot where it's not on the way from Liverpool or Manchester to the north, so any services that way will come from London or Birmingham.

You can't solve one problem without creating a new one somewhere... Though I do think that splitting the Chester/ Holyhead at Stafford or Crewe would give an opportunity to run an extra train between the NW and London. And Preston might be a good place to extend the Trent Valley semi fast (it could also serve Liverpool via Warrington, potentially). Assuming trains can be found to do so.

 

[AndrewE]

There are three trains per hour to Scotland from Preston onwards.
Wigan has two.

Wigan has 3 - if a Liverpool to Scotland runs ... but Crewe has ONE! How's that for serving potential demand?

 

[jfollows]

Wigan has 3 - if a Liverpool to Scotland runs ... but Crewe has ONE! How's that for serving potential demand?

Crewe to Warrington and places north has always been a loser with the current timetable. Crewe to Liverpool used not to be good until the London-Liverpool service was altered to add a Crewe call.
I use the services via Birmingham because they call there and I change there.
I used to work in Warrington and occasionally would use the train home, and the service wasn’t good.
But I guess there will always be losers.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Wigan has 3 - if a Liverpool to Scotland runs ... but Crewe has ONE! How's that for serving potential demand?

So in three random hours of the day.

 

[AndrewE]

So in three random hours of the day.

but it is still 3 (some hours) and should get more reliable. Which is in stark contrast with the potential demand and possible journey opportunities for people joining the WCML at Crewe.

 

[Topological]

Wigan has 3 - if a Liverpool to Scotland runs ... but Crewe has ONE! How's that for serving potential demand?

As we already established, the only places this affects are on the Shrewsbury, local Trent Valley and Stoke routes, all other stations would just as easily connect anywhere else. I don't think these are particularly big markets?

Birmingham routes would just take the direct rather than travel to Crewe to change into the London to Glasgow.

Everywhere else (including Stoke itself) can change at either Manchester, Warrington (Chester routes), Wigan (Liverpool routes) or Preston instead of Crewe and arguably would do anyway because for many the journey is faster by so doing.

Crewe itself is not a big place.

If the present service that passes through Crewe was empty, then you might argue it needed to stop, but that is not the case.

IF this was to be about capacity (and it is not, this is about Glasgow to London), then surely Manchester serves more places and only has ONE 5-car train to Glasgow, compared to Crewe with 11-car). There are many bigger towns that have their connection in Manchester than have their connection in Crewe.

 

[Bald Rick]

It's usually the Avanti which are late though, it has to be said.

More likely they are late yes. That doesn’t excuse an on time 125moh Avanti being held for more than 5 mins for a late running 100mph train!

 

[amahy]

As we already established, the only places this affects are on the Shrewsbury, local Trent Valley and Stoke routes, all other stations would just as easily connect anywhere else. I don't think these are particularly big markets?

There should be a fairly big market for people travelling between South Wales and Scotland to change at Crewe - it's alot more pleasant than going via Birmingham.

If the present service that passes through Crewe was empty, then you might argue it needed to stop, but that is not the case.

The present service that passes through Crewe is not empty, but is definitely quieter than the Scotland train that does stop at Crewe.

IF this was to be about capacity (and it is not, this is about Glasgow to London), then surely Manchester serves more places and only has ONE 5-car train to Glasgow, compared to Crewe with 11-car). There are many bigger towns that have their connection in Manchester than have their connection in Crewe.

Bare in mind that the Scotland train that calls at Crewe also calls at Birmingham, another major hub. It is also not always 11 car, and is more often 9 car, in my experience. I agree with your point about Manchester - one 5 car train per hour between Manchester and Scotland is definitely not enough - everytime I have used, or seen the service, it has been full (not standing full, but only a few seats free).

 

[Topological]

There should be a fairly big market for people travelling between South Wales and Scotland to change at Crewe - it's alot more pleasant than going via Birmingham.

The present service that passes through Crewe is not empty, but is definitely quieter than the Scotland train that does stop at Crewe.

Bare in mind that the Scotland train that calls at Crewe also calls at Birmingham, another major hub. It is also not always 11 car, and is more often 9 car, in my experience. I agree with your point about Manchester - one 5 car train per hour between Manchester and Scotland is definitely not enough - everytime I have used, or seen the service, it has been full (not standing full, but only a few seats free).

The Marches is well served with the current train. The connection north is 39 minutes (which is ok) and the south is 10 minutes (probably means delay repay compensation, but many welcome free travel).

It is really only the Shrewsbury local that has a terrible connection to the northbound at Crewe.

I thought this whole thread came about because the train that does not stop at Crewe is full. My understanding is that the cheap advances are always on the via Birmingham for this reason?

For example in earlier posts:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2025 ==

Every. Single. Time. People are standing, luggage blocking corridors no access to the buffet. It’s a massive stress every time I use it.

It certainly needs a second train an hour. Maybe with a stop at Nuneaton for connections east. Long-distance Intercity travel should not be like this.

Ok. Usually I’m going no further than Preston. Oftentimes the train at Preston arrives at capacity. I did a trip to Glasgow last autumn during the week and found the northbound journey okay, but the southbound at capacity from Glasgow. I do London to Preston at back at weekends and sometimes during the week. Weekday midday is the quietest, over time it’s either nearing capacity or over.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2025 ==



I think you’re right.

The point about the advances is in this thread, but I did not immediately find it.

 

[cle]

What would the time penalty be to route one of the Euston-Liverpool services (the pendo, to retain South Parkway?) via Warrington?

Which could remove a call on a Scotland. Runcorn having 1tph is fine, it has managed all this time.

Or a Birmingham LNR perhaps, if all the way to Preston isn’t tenable re cutting Liverpool.

 

[amahy]

I thought this whole thread came about because the train that does not stop at Crewe is full. My understanding is that the cheap advances are always on the via Birmingham for this reason?

I have travelled on both Scotland direct, and Scotland via Birmingham, and the via Birmingham has always been the busier service in my experience. Both Scotland services should be top priority for 11 cars in my opinion - the problems arise when a 9 car is used.

 

[The Planner]

What would the time penalty be to route one of the Euston-Liverpool services (the pendo, to retain South Parkway?) via Warrington?

Which could remove a call on a Scotland. Runcorn having 1tph is fine, it has managed all this time.

Or a Birmingham LNR perhaps, if all the way to Preston isn’t tenable re cutting Liverpool.

Not very much. Means Warrington drops a connection to Preston though.

 

[cle]

But the Birmingham-Scotland would cover that. Does it need more than 1tph?

In that case, first stop out of Euston could be Wigan, on the fast.

It does seem like a 1tph Crewe-Preston or even Blackpool/Lancaster alt, would be a handy connector, and enable other trains to speed up.

 

[Sorcerer]

What would the time penalty be to route one of the Euston-Liverpool services (the pendo, to retain South Parkway?) via Warrington?

Which could remove a call on a Scotland. Runcorn having 1tph is fine, it has managed all this time.

Or a Birmingham LNR perhaps, if all the way to Preston isn’t tenable re cutting Liverpool.

As I understand it the second Liverpool is more for the Trent Valley connections to London than it is for connectivity between London and Liverpool, but routing via Warrington would probably take a fair bit longer, and I'm not sure if the capacity is even there on the Chat Moss route between Earlestown and Liverpool Lime Street.

If power supply between Crewe and Weaver Junction wasn't a constraint I think that extending the London Northwestern Crewe service to Preston might be a better alternative than cutting back on the fasts Warrington and Wigan stops, especially since they are usually the go-to stations for connecting to Scotland from Liverpool.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

What about alternating London Chester/North Wales and an extra London Glasgow each hour?

 

[Zomboid]

routing via Warrington would probably take a fair bit longer,

Based on schedules in RTT for existing trains:

• Weaver to Warrington on a Glasgow train is 4 minutes
• 2 minute dwell
• Warrington to Earlestown (dep) on a TfW stopping train is 8 minutes
• Earlestown to Lime St on a TPE is 20 minutes with a call at Lea Green.

So call it 34 minutes Weaver to Lime St.

It's 26 minutes via (with a call at) Runcorn.

The 0636 (1F11 - pathed as 80x) takes 2h02 to reach Weaver Jn, so it's around 8 minutes longer on a 2h30ish journey time to go via Warrington. Not nothing, but not the end of the world if the call at Warrington is worth having.

 

[Bletchleyite]

and are you withdrawing the Birmingham-Glasgows altogether? That makes yet another change for e.g. Bristol-Glasgow passengers.

Anyone with any sense doing that goes via London to avoid XC

 

[Falcon1200]

It does seem like a 1tph Crewe-Preston

In addition to the existing Avanti service, because just one train an hour linking Preston and Crewe is simply not good enough.

 

[The Planner]

But the Birmingham-Scotland would cover that. Does it need more than 1tph?

In that case, first stop out of Euston could be Wigan, on the fast.

It does seem like a 1tph Crewe-Preston or even Blackpool/Lancaster alt, would be a handy connector, and enable other trains to speed up.

You are removing something they have already got. 15000 journeys a year to Preston are now moving to one train or not be made at all as the generalised journey time goes up. Same for Euston at 132000 journeys. There is also an assumption you can utilise the 4 odd minutes you save from removing the stop. For example, you would catch up the Manchester Barrow services and cause clashes at Carnforth and Motherwell.

What about alternating London Chester/North Wales and an extra London Glasgow each hour?

Using 805s? There wouldn't be enough.

 

[Sorcerer]

Based on schedules in RTT for existing trains:

• Weaver to Warrington on a Glasgow train is 4 minutes
• 2 minute dwell
• Warrington to Earlestown (dep) on a TfW stopping train is 8 minutes
• Earlestown to Lime St on a TPE is 20 minutes with a call at Lea Green.

So call it 34 minutes Weaver to Lime St.

It's 26 minutes via (with a call at) Runcorn.

The 0636 (1F11 - pathed as 80x) takes 2h02 to reach Weaver Jn, so it's around 8 minutes longer on a 2h30ish journey time to go via Warrington. Not nothing, but not the end of the world if the call at Warrington is worth having.

I think there's still a question of capacity on the Chat Moss route, and if the concern is improving connections between Preston and Crewe then then I think a better alternative would be extending the LNR London-Crewe service. The only problem there is power supply issues between Crewe and Weaver which partly held back the second hourly Liverpool service even though that's gradually being worked around (come December most hours will have the second service).

I think that I need to catch up on this thread though because I haven't done a great job keeping up with it over the last few days and I am now confused as to what the discussion is about and why there was mention of removing the Warrington and Wigan calls on the Glasgow fasts when the original idea was making the service half-hourly. I know that some suggested having one fast calling only at nodal points like Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle.