EMUs on WCML 70s to 2000s

[Western Sunset]

The 304s were certainly very lively units.
I well remember travelling on a Trent Valley stopper in one of these units between Nuneaton and Rugby. I had the carriage to myself (possibly the entire train) and it was the one and only time in all my journeys that I wondered if I'd actually arrive at Rugby in one piece and still on the rails. Certainly my most scary rail journey, it was that rough and unnerving.

 

[Benters]

Don’t forget the 303’s also had a go on the wcml. Remember having one Stafford to Crewe

I definitely remember catching a 303 from Stafford to Stoke sometime in the summer of 1984. I remember think "What's it doing this far south?".Mind you, it was an improvement on the 304s.
Sliding doors, open plan seating, what wasn't there to like?

 

[Magdalia]

Thanks for that, cos I couldn't remember the numbers, so i can now make a note of which ones they were.
Off at a tangent, but have you any idea what became of the original 4West Midlands ones 201 - 204. Were they renumbered ?

That's not off at a tangent, its definitely relevant!

312201-204 were renumbered to 312727-730, adding on to the GN units 312701-726.

So 312727 and 312728 in the West Midlands in 1995/96 were actually 312201 and 312202 returning after a long absence.

 

[Bovverboy]

As a fairly frequent spotter at the Euston end of the line in the late 70s-early 80s, I don’t recall seeing the four WMids 312s there at all. Or any 304s for that matter.

I travelled on a 304 on a Friday afternoon Euston to Manchester Piccadilly relief, probably in the late 1980s. I don't know whether or not it was a regular working. Plenty of space available, better than taking a chance with the scheduled train.

 

[jfollows]

I travelled on a 304 on a Friday afternoon Euston to Manchester Piccadilly relief, probably in the late 1980s. I don't know whether or not it was a regular working. Plenty of space available, better than taking a chance with the scheduled train.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't a regular working, but it might have been substituting for something like 1H21 17:55 FO Euston-Manchester which was booked for 100mph vacuum-braked stock (with a 20:30 arrival into Manchester Piccadilly it was quite sharply timed too). [From the 16/5/88 to 14/5/89 CM working timetable.]

 

[Sprinter107]

That's not off at a tangent, its definitely relevant!

312201-204 were renumbered to 312727-730, adding on to the GN units 312701-726.

So 312727 and 312728 in the West Midlands in 1995/96 were actually 312201 and 312202 returning after a long absence.

Cheers for that. A co incidence they shouldve sent two of the original West Midlands sets back.

 

[XAM2175]

312.204 in Manchester Piccadilly, 1987.

That's the WMPTE livery, isn't it? Thought for a moment it was Dutch

 

[Taunton]

I suspect traction knowledge was a significant issue - I doubt Crewe drivers signed 310s for example, nor did drivers on the southern section sign 304s.

One might think so.

However, early in my time on Merseyside, mid-1960s, I took a stopper from Lime Street to Crewe one Saturday lunchtime. Always a Class 304 by then, right? No, not only was it a dmu, but one of the pioneer 79xxx Derby series, the "Yellow Diamond" units, never of course seen anywhere near Liverpool (or Crewe) ... except there it was, and I rode it, with a once-off forward view of the line. It was one of only two journeys I ever got in such units, both far away from their normal areas. Now I don't recall the driver being in any way fazed by this unusual steed, so if that could be done surely less complex combinations could be.

 

[GS250]

The 310s were pretty much gone from the Southern LMR by about 1988. That's my recollection. Someone with evidence may be able to confirm but one unit may have made a very brief return in about 1990 to cover for temporary low availability of 321 units?

Don't ever recall the 310s ever substituting for regular loco hauled services though. If it did happen it would surely have been on the London to Birmingham route. Capacity in first class would have something of an issue although they were certainly ran at over 80mph if on the fast lines and running late.

 

[jfollows]

Don't ever recall the 310s ever substituting for regular loco hauled services though. If it did happen it would surely have been on the London to Birmingham route. Capacity in first class would have something of an issue although they were certainly ran at over 80mph if on the fast lines and running late.

It happened regularly on summer Saturdays between Liverpool/Manchester and Birmingham, on services which normally went beyond Birmingham but for which the sets had been used for other summer Saturday workings. For example 1G61 16:23 Manchester-Coventry "On Sats until 1 Oct is EMU" from the 2/5/77 to 7/5/78 timetable. Worked by 1H25 13:55 Birmingham-Manchester in the times of 1M72 10:25 Taunton-Manchester. AM10 sets were (normally) used for these workings.
EDIT Similarly 1F36 16:55 SO Birmingham New Street to Liverpool Lime Street & 1G64 19:21 SO Liverpool Lime Street to Birmingham New Street (29/5 to 18/9 from the 3/5/76 to 1/5/77 timetable).
In both cases the SX & other SO timings were E455+, so 100mph vacuum-braked sets.

 

[Strathclyder]

That's the WMPTE livery, isn't it? Thought for a moment it was Dutch

It is indeed. It's certainly, erm, distinctive! Then again, we Glaswegians can hardly talk about anyone else's 'eye-catching' liveries, what with us having both Strathclyde Orange/Black and SPT Carmine/Cream under our belts.

Going off on another tangent, it actually reminds me somwhat of the livery 321334 carried at one time in the early 90s, which was a mockup of NS colours (was done in conjunction with the twinning of Liverpool Street and Amsterdam Centraal stations); 334 was even named Amsterdam to this effect.

321334 in mock NS livery at Stratford

This unit was specially painted in conjunction with the twinning of Liverpool Street and Amsterdam CS stations.

www.flickr.com

(321334 at Stratford c.1994. Image copyright of Flickr's Justin Perkins)

 

[6Gman]

I wonder whether a 310 ever made it to Lime St on the Crewe/Liverpool stoppers?

I would very much doubt it, for the traction knowledge issues alluded to above.

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One might think so.

However, early in my time on Merseyside, mid-1960s, I took a stopper from Lime Street to Crewe one Saturday lunchtime. Always a Class 304 by then, right? No, not only was it a dmu, but one of the pioneer 79xxx Derby series, the "Yellow Diamond" units, never of course seen anywhere near Liverpool (or Crewe) ... except there it was, and I rode it, with a once-off forward view of the line. It was one of only two journeys I ever got in such units, both far away from their normal areas. Now I don't recall the driver being in any way fazed by this unusual steed, so if that could be done surely less complex combinations could be.

That's an intriguing one!

Firstly, because of how it got there? (Where were they based at that time?)

Secondly, the traction knowledge issue. Maybe the driver just assumed it was Blue Square?

 

[Bald Rick]

That's the WMPTE livery, isn't it? Thought for a moment it was Dutch

IIRC it was indeed based on the NS livery.

 

[Taunton]

I would very much doubt it, for the traction knowledge issues alluded to above.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Sep 2022 ==


That's an intriguing one!

Firstly, because of how it got there? (Where were they based at that time?)

Secondly, the traction knowledge issue. Maybe the driver just assumed it was Blue Square?

The nearest the Yellow Diamond sets got at the time was the substantial fleet which operated the ex-GC diesel lines from Manchester Piccadilly to Romiley, New Mills etc, based at a combination of Reddish and Longsight. Possibly the Longsight 304 crew knew them. Was there interworking at Crewe between Manchester and Liverpool local services?

I don't believe one could just assume it was the same as a Blue Square unit (though the latter was indeed just a series of variations on the original), as one of the main differences was the way in which it was started, the voltage drop in the original Yellow Diamond system when operating as a multiple unit (and this was 2 x 2 car units) caused a key alteration, so one presumes the driver would need to know a different way to start the engines.

 

[D1537]

That's not correct. The LMR class 312s were ordered for the opening of the National Exhibition Centre and, when new, worked separate diagrams mainly covering the Birmingham International-Birmingham New Street shuttle service. I haven't checked the details but have a recollection that the West Midlands PTE contributed funding.

The 312s were regulars on the BHM-BHI shuttles but also did Walsall trips and occasionally ventured out to Rugby (commonly) and Northampton (more rarely).

That's interesting. I thought the 303s just worked around Manchester and Crewe - Liverpool and Manchester services. I didn't realise they ventured south of Crewe.

Some Trent Valley stoppers were booked for 303s for a few years. At least 1982-85ish? The last southbound to Rugby which formed the 06xx northbound the next day was pretty much always one.

 

[Ken H]

The 312s were regulars on the BHM-BHI shuttles but also did Walsall trips and occasionally ventured out to Rugby (commonly) and Northampton (more rarely).



Some Trent Valley stoppers were booked for 303s for a few years. At least 1982-85ish? The last southbound to Rugby which formed the 06xx northbound the next day was pretty much always one.

I think the 304's were shedded at crewe. They had a facility on the up side between the station and the line to Stoke. Were the 303's allocated there too so were in a common pool with the 304's

 

[Snow1964]

Don’t think anyone has yet mentioned it, but from mid 1990s the WCML also had workings of the class 325 EMUs, these were painted Royal Mail red and were basically a class 319 with a tougher floor, no windows and shutter doors instead of passenger doors. Like the class 442s were designed to be hauled off the electric network by locos.

I have forgotten where they went to but there was a big terminal near Stonebridge Park.

 

[Foxcover]

The 304s could certainly bounce. I recall once in the late ‘80s during an afternoon of a lot of disruption, being on a delayed 304 from Manchester to Crewe. For some reason it was despatched out of Stockport ahead of a similarly delayed but ready-to-depart Euston (via Stoke) train and the 304 absolutely belted it down to Cheadle Hulme, presumably to clear the junction there as fast as possible. People were holding on tight for the three-minute section as the well-upholstered seats bounced in resonance to the bogies & there was plenty of dust in the air too!

 

[Taunton]

Someone wrote here previously that the excessive bouncing of the 304s, far more than reported on comparable units on the GE/LTS lines, was due to a different maintenance regime, where some part of the suspension was well oiled by the LMR but not by the ER. I don't think they did so initially, it was apparently finally identified and stopped.

The ER had long experience of the Gresley bogies, of course, whereas the LMR didn't.

 

[Helvellyn]

I find it fascinating that the Class 310s, based on Mark 2 construction techniques, were built for the Southern WCML when electrification reached London. Given they were contemporary with the 4-VEPs it could very well have been a modernised 304 that got ordered!

Mind you, equally surprised no thought was given to a Mark 2 derived updated version of the Class 309 for some WCML services instead of sticking with all loco-hauled services.

 

[Taunton]

I find it fascinating that the Class 310s, based on Mark 2 construction techniques, were built for the Southern WCML when electrification reached London. Given they were contemporary with the 4-VEPs it could very well have been a modernised 304 that got ordered!

Mind you, equally surprised no thought was given to a Mark 2 derived updated version of the Class 309 for some WCML services instead of sticking with all loco-hauled services.

There's a painting from some time in the early 1960s which supported electrification of the ECML, set at Grantham with a blue Class 81 and maroon Mk1 stock, plus a 309 also in maroon.

 

[AM9]

The ER had long experience of the Gresley bogies, of course, whereas the LMR didn't.

... and on track that was fairly variable!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Sep 2022 ==

There's a painting from some time in the early 1960s which supported electrification of the ECML, set at Grantham with a blue Class 81 and maroon Mk1 stock, plus a 309 also in maroon.

That must have been before 1962 given that they were deployed on the GE following a decision to not use them on the ECML.

 

[GS250]

Mind you, equally surprised no thought was given to a Mark 2 derived updated version of the Class 309 for some WCML services instead of sticking with all loco-hauled services.

I always thought there was room for the concept you just mentioned. Obvious candidate would have been the London to Birmingham Intercity services. Naturally the more 'prestige' services requiring full catering could have been handed by loco hauled.

I guess though that such a concept would have been relatively short lived as once air conditioned stock became available, it would have been seen as a big step down from a MK2D on.

 

[Benters]

There's a painting from some time in the early 1960s which supported electrification of the ECML, set at Grantham with a blue Class 81 and maroon Mk1 stock, plus a 309 also in maroon.

There's an oil painting from the 1960s in the booking hall at Stafford station depicting the electrification of the WCML. It shows the then nearly-new rebuilt station and a class 81 (I think) in Electric Blue with white window surrounds at the head of a rake of maroon Mk1s at one platform. A green class 304 is seen at an adjacent platform.

 

[Magdalia]

I find it fascinating that the Class 310s, based on Mark 2 construction techniques, were built for the Southern WCML when electrification reached London. Given they were contemporary with the 4-VEPs it could very well have been a modernised 304 that got ordered!

The 4VEPs were a decision by the Southern to stick with MarkIs after everyone else had moved on. The class 310s can be considered a "silver lining" of WCML electrification taking so long to reach London. If that had happened in, say, 1964, then the trains probably would have been class 304s.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Still hunting for my photo of a Manchester-based 303 at Stafford, but meanwhile, here's that yellow/blue 312, or at least half of it, when I photographed it in Wolverton Works on the open day in 1985. Someone's wound the blind to Tring, but that doesn't mean anything!

 

[Ken H]

I have a Rail Electric Unit Stock book, May 1990
It had:-
304 Allocated Longsite (Sector PLGX Regional, longsight, livery Blue/Grey) 23 units
303 same as ^^ 4 units
310 Allocated Bletchley (Sector Provincial, Bletchley, livery, provincial) 10 units

319's had come to Thameslink (Allocated Selhurst) , so the 317's were at Hornsea. NSE had 321's at Bletchley, and all the 312's were at Clacton.

No idea if the 310's ever got to Euston at that time.

I think 304's were stabled at Crewe Carriage Sidings (CP) quite a bit. Remember them stabled on the downside sidings at Stockport , and at Altrincham. I think one of the electrified platforms at Altrincham was used for this.

304 trailers went 1984-6 reducing them to 3 car units.

 

[6Gman]

The nearest the Yellow Diamond sets got at the time was the substantial fleet which operated the ex-GC diesel lines from Manchester Piccadilly to Romiley, New Mills etc, based at a combination of Reddish and Longsight. Possibly the Longsight 304 crew knew them. Was there interworking at Crewe between Manchester and Liverpool local services?

I don't believe one could just assume it was the same as a Blue Square unit (though the latter was indeed just a series of variations on the original), as one of the main differences was the way in which it was started, the voltage drop in the original Yellow Diamond system when operating as a multiple unit (and this was 2 x 2 car units) caused a key alteration, so one presumes the driver would need to know a different way to start the engines.

Thank you for the explanation of the technical differences.

I too thought the nearest Yellow Diamonds then would have been at Longsight, but - given the sensitivities of depots regarding what was "their" work - I doubt Longsight men would have signed Crewe - Runcorn - Liverpool.

Of course, another possibility would be a driver who had transferred into a depot but retained some traction knowledge from his previous depot. (I used to see route knowledge cards from a variety of depots and some of the routes still signed by a handful of crew was often surprising and I suspect traction knowledge records were similar.) On which note I will simply record that the Yellow Diamonds had spent some time at Llandudno Junction earlier in their careers, that I have a recollection that my father's collection of manuals included one for such units (possibly from the time of their use there) and that he transferred to Crewe in 1966. Not saying he was the driver @Taunton had on that occasion, but . . .

 

[Helvellyn]

The 4VEPs were a decision by the Southern to stick with MarkIs after everyone else had moved on. The class 310s can be considered a "silver lining" of WCML electrification taking so long to reach London. If that had happened in, say, 1964, then the trains probably would have been class 304s.

Oh I fully get that with the VEPs. Possibly influenced as well by the fact that the REP trailers and all the TC stock were rebuilt Mk 1 stock to keep costa down. If it had all been new build might have been different!

I always thought there was room for the concept you just mentioned. Obvious candidate would have been the London to Birmingham Intercity services. Naturally the more 'prestige' services requiring full catering could have been handed by loco hauled.

I guess though that such a concept would have been relatively short lived as once air conditioned stock became available, it would have been seen as a big step down from a MK2D on.

Very true, but at the time the Mk 2Ds were a few years off. But then again I don't think Euston-West Mids got air-con straight away as I assume the initial Mk 2D/2E stock went on longer distance WCML services first?

 

[GS250]

Oh I fully get that with the VEPs. Possibly influenced as well by the fact that the REP trailers and all the TC stock were rebuilt Mk 1 stock to keep costa down. If it had all been new build might have been different!


Very true, but at the time the Mk 2Ds were a few years off. But then again I don't think Euston-West Mids got air-con straight away as I assume the initial Mk 2D/2E stock went on longer distance WCML services first?

Possible. I do recall the WCML was a bit of an 'anything goes' at times mind. Guess this was part of the attraction as an observer.

Getting back to topic, did the Lon-Brum 310s always operate as semi fast to Rugby, then all stations to New Street? Seem to recall that there was a change when the 317/321s appeared and that these turns omitted the minor shacks between Rugby and NS? Pretty sure they have returned with the present timetable.