EMUs on WCML 70s to 2000s

[MarkWi72]

I recognise the 304s (mainly Midlands / N West) and 310s , but for a while 312s were on certain services between West Mids and Euston. When were these phased out? mid 90s?

304s were very bumpy, 310s less so. 350s are luxury in comparison.

I recall 310s and 312s mainly Brum/Rugby to Euston.

 

[D6130]

but for a while 312s were on certain services between West Mids and Euston. When were these phased out? mid 90s?

There were only four 312s on the LMR (201-204) and, IIRC, they were used in a common pool with their class 310 cousins. Unlike their Great Eastern counterparts - which were geared for 90 mph - the LMR units were restricted to 75 to avoid potential problems when running in multiple with the 310s. They were withdrawn in 2003/04.

 

[Sprinter107]

NSE 312s made a come back to the Birmingham area in the 1990s. I didnt take too much notice of the numbers, and were used alongside the class 310s still working there. They werent the original four that were used in the Birmingham area from the mid 1970s.

 

[Magdalia]

There were only four 312s on the LMR (201-204) and, IIRC, they were used in a common pool with their class 310 cousins.

That's not correct. The LMR class 312s were ordered for the opening of the National Exhibition Centre and, when new, worked separate diagrams mainly covering the Birmingham International-Birmingham New Street shuttle service. I haven't checked the details but have a recollection that the West Midlands PTE contributed funding.

Unlike their Great Eastern counterparts - which were geared for 90 mph - the LMR units were restricted to 75 to avoid potential problems when running in multiple with the 310s. They were withdrawn in 2003/04.

The 75mph maximum speed was a paper restriction, the gearing was the same as the other class 312s. 312201-204 eventually moved to the GE, were renumbered as 312727-730, and ran on the GE at 90mph.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2022 ==

NSE 312s made a come back to the Birmingham area in the 1990s.

That was class 310s not class 312s. They were renumbered 310101-113.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2022 ==

I didnt take too much notice of the numbers, and were used alongside the class 310s still working there.

Class 310s had gone from the LMR by the early 1990s, replaced by class 317s than class 321s.

 

[eastwestdivide]

That's not correct. The LMR class 312s were ordered for the opening of the National Exhibition Centre and, when new, worked separate diagrams mainly covering the Birmingham International-Birmingham New Street shuttle service. I haven't checked the details but have a recollection that the West Midlands PTE contributed funding

Yes. As a fairly frequent spotter at the Euston end of the line in the late 70s-early 80s, I don’t recall seeing the four WMids 312s there at all. Or any 304s for that matter.

 

[Sprinter107]

That's not correct. The LMR class 312s were ordered for the opening of the National Exhibition Centre and, when new, worked separate diagrams mainly covering the Birmingham International-Birmingham New Street shuttle service. I haven't checked the details but have a recollection that the West Midlands PTE contributed funding.


The 75mph maximum speed was a paper restriction, the gearing was the same as the other class 312s. 312201-204 eventually moved to the GE, were renumbered as 312727-730, and ran on the GE at 90mph.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2022 ==


That was class 310s not class 312s. They were renumbered 310101-113.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2022 ==


Class 310s had gone from the LMR by the early 1990s, replaced by class 317s than class 321s.

There were NSE class 312s in the West Midlands in the early 1990s, possibly about 1994. They werent there very long either. I travelled on em to work. I know the difference between a 310 and a 312. It was round about the same time we had 308s from the Tilbury line. NSE 310s also reappeared, 310050 being one such unit, being loaned from East Ham to Bletchley.

 

[jfollows]

There were only four 312s on the LMR (201-204) and, IIRC, they were used in a common pool with their class 310 cousins.

They weren't in a common pool I don't think, because I can't recall ever seeing a 312 in Manchester (between the time they were built in 1976 and 1980 when i was a daily traveller, or even after that when I wasn't) whereas 310/AM10s were on regular diagrams (such as the 16:10/17:30 Manchester-Macclesfield both of which I caught frequently).

 

[Snow1964]

From memory when the class 319s entered service on Thameslink (1987) NSE transferred in some class 317s to Euston-Northampton and Birmingham services.

In turn the 310s took over some of the class 304 duties so were more regularly seen north of West Midlands from late 1980s

The 304s lingered on in West Midlands mainly on peak hour extras until about 1994-5 when 323s took over (and electrification was extended with cross city line going electric).

From about 1989 new class 321s took over south of Birmingham (they differed internally from Great Eastern units as had different number of First class seats). The 317s moving to the newly electrified Bishops Stortford-Cambridge-Kings Lynn line. The peak hour loco hauled mk1s to Northampton were also replaced by 321s

 

[Magdalia]

There were NSE class 312s in the West Midlands in the early 1990s, possibly about 1994. They werent there very long either.

You're right, I've found it now. 312725-728 were briefly with Regional Railways in 1995/96, following a period in store at Kineton.

And 312201/202 were in NSE livery in 1987/88, before they moved away from the LMR. 312204 had a WMPTE livery at that time but I can't find 312203.

 

[Sprinter107]

You're right, I've found it now. 312725-728 were briefly with Regional Railways in 1995/96, following a period in store at Kineton.

And 312201/202 were in NSE livery in 1987/88, before they moved away from the LMR. 312204 had a WMPTE livery at that time but I can't find 312203.

Thanks for that, cos I couldn't remember the numbers, so i can now make a note of which ones they were.
Off at a tangent, but have you any idea what became of the original 4West Midlands ones 201 - 204. Were they renumbered ?

 

[L+Y]

The 304s lingered on in West Midlands mainly on peak hour extras until about 1994-5 when 323s took over (and electrification was extended with cross city line going electric).

I have vague memories of non-323 EMUs operating on the Cross City line in the mid 1990s: were these 304s, or another class?

 

[D6130]

That's not correct. The LMR class 312s were ordered for the opening of the National Exhibition Centre and, when new, worked separate diagrams mainly covering the Birmingham International-Birmingham New Street shuttle service. I haven't checked the details but have a recollection that the West Midlands PTE contributed funding.

The 75mph maximum speed was a paper restriction, the gearing was the same as the other class 312s. 312201-204 eventually moved to the GE, were renumbered as 312727-730, and ran on the GE at 90mph.

Happy to be corrected. As stated several times previously, the old memory is not what it once was! Now you mention it, I do seem to recall the 312/2s being used on the New Street-International shuttles.

 

[delt1c]

The main difference of me memory serves me correct is that the 312’s for the LM and Kings Cross services were 25kv only and the GE units 25kv and 6.25

 

[Springs Branch]

They weren't in a common pool I don't think, because I can't recall ever seeing a 312 in Manchester (between the time they were built in 1976 and 1980 when i was a daily traveller, or even after that when I wasn't) whereas 310/AM10s were on regular diagrams (such as the 16:10/17:30 Manchester-Macclesfield both of which I caught frequently).

310s could certainly be seen very regularly at Piccadilly, having come in on stopping services from the Birmingham via Stoke direction.

Infrequently, it seems, a Class 310 unit was ’captured’ in Manchester (maybe the last train of the day was booked to be stabled at Longsight and they forgot to send it home the next morning) and found itself deployed on South Manchester suburban duties.

There’s photographic evidence of 310s in use on Altrincham-Alderley Edge and Altrincham-Hazel Grove services in the late 1970s & 1980s (pics easily discoverable with a Google search of Flickr). Interesting that the Bletchley-based 310s seemed to include Alderley Edge and Hazel Grove on their destination blinds.

I think the topic of whether the four WM 312s ever made it to Manchester has been raised on here before, and IIRC the conclusion was no-one has any evidence that they did. I’m happy to be corrected on this.

 

[87015]

I have vague memories of non-323 EMUs operating on the Cross City line in the mid 1990s: were these 304s, or another class?

304, 308, 310 and DMUs

 

[Benters]

I recognise the 304s (mainly Midlands / N West) and 310s , but for a while 312s were on certain services between West Mids and Euston. When were these phased out? mid 90s?

304s were very bumpy, 310s less so. 350s are luxury in comparison.

I recall 310s and 312s mainly Brum/Rugby to Euston.

Couldn't agree more, used to shuttle between Stafford and Stoke twice weekly on my day-release courses back in the '80s. The 304s were rough, bouncing all over the place. The 310s were a huge improvement IMHO.

 

[Sprinter107]

There are pictures on Flickr of 312204 at both Manchester Piccadilly, and Preston, in its blue and yellow West Midlands livery, so at least one of those four 312s got to Manchester

 

[Taunton]

Yes. As a fairly frequent spotter at the Euston end of the line in the late 70s-early 80s, I don’t recall seeing the four WMids 312s there at all. Or any 304s for that matter.

The only 304 I ever saw at Euston was in late 1965, when the 25kV had been turned on but before the proper electric timetable started.

But then, the 310s didn't work to Altrincham, right? Except that the first time I ever travelled to Altrincham, probably 1980, I went in one. Never saw another afterwards. So you never know.

 

[Snapper37]

Don’t forget the 303’s also had a go on the wcml. Remember having one Stafford to Crewe

 

[jfollows]

But then, the 310s didn't work to Altrincham, right? Except that the first time I ever travelled to Altrincham, probably 1980, I went in one. Never saw another afterwards. So you never know.

It was very unusual, indeed; I used the Altrincham service to get from Oxford Road to Piccadilly in the afternoon on my way home from school and I never saw one used (1973-1980) and I went to school adjacent to the railway line between Cheadle Hulme and Handforth 1970-73 and again I only saw AM4s. I think the difference was that there were booked turns on the Macclesfield/Stoke line such as the one I mentioned earlier, whereas there weren't any booked turns on the Crewe-Altrincham route, but occasionally things "happen" and you ended up travelling to Altrincham on one.

 

[Mag_seven]

Don’t forget the 303’s also had a go on the wcml. Remember having one Stafford to Crewe

They of course along with the 311s were to be seen regularly on the Scottish section of the WCML between Glasgow Central and Lanark / Carstairs.

 

[Revaulx]

It was very unusual, indeed; I used the Altrincham service to get from Oxford Road to Piccadilly in the afternoon on my way home from school and I never saw one used (1973-1980) and I went to school adjacent to the railway line between Cheadle Hulme and Handforth 1970-73 and again I only saw AM4s. I think the difference was that there were booked turns on the Macclesfield/Stoke line such as the one I mentioned earlier, whereas there weren't any booked turns on the Crewe-Altrincham route, but occasionally things "happen" and you ended up travelling to Altrincham on one.

I was a regular on the Alty line from DC days through to leaving school in 1975. AM10s were infrequent visitors, but not that infrequent. They tended to turn up more often in the afternoon than the morning.

There was never a shortage of them at Piccadilly though; they were standard fare on the Macclesfield-Stoke-Birmingham services. I’m not sure how often an AM4 turned left at Cheadle Hulme towards Macclesfield, though I dare say they did.

 

[Strathclyder]

They of course along with the 311s were to be seen regularly on the Scottish section of the WCML between Glasgow Central and Lanark / Carstairs.

314s too on that same section of the Scottish section the WCML from November 1979 onwards. Wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that virtually every class of ScotRail EMU from the 303s on have used at least part of that section of the WCML in normal service (barring the 365s as far as I'm aware). This includes the small group of North Berwick 305s as there are a few images of them at Glasgow Central floating about online.

 

[jfollows]

There was never a shortage of them at Piccadilly though; they were standard fare on the Macclesfield-Stoke-Birmingham services. I’m not sure how often an AM4 turned left at Cheadle Hulme towards Macclesfield, though I dare say they did.

Virtually everything was AM4 to Macclesfield 1973-1980, but each timetable came up with some booked AM10 workings, which I'd mentally note. The 16:10/17:30 Manchester to Macclesfield pair was one unit with a return trip back from Macclesfield in between and came empty off Longsight to work the first one, probably having previously worked the 07:15 from Birmingham, and this was a booked AM10 most years I recall.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Don’t forget the 303’s also had a go on the wcml. Remember having one Stafford to Crewe

That's interesting. I thought the 303s just worked around Manchester and Crewe - Liverpool and Manchester services. I didn't realise they ventured south of Crewe.

Also during the period discussed the WCML saw 305s, 309s and 317s.

The only 304 I ever saw at Euston was in late 1965, when the 25kV had been turned on but before the proper electric timetable started.

I've got a photo of one on a Liverpool - London (probably Wembley Central) Footex.

 

[Bald Rick]

I have vague memories of non-323 EMUs operating on the Cross City line in the mid 1990s: were these 304s, or another class?

I can date, with certainty, a slam door emu on the Cross City in November 1996.

 

[6Gman]

My recollections include:

In the late 60s/ early 70s 310s were very rare at Crewe (can only recall one or two ever on the Manchester stopper) but regular at Piccadilly, working in on the stoppers via Stoke.

There was a very early Crewe - Brum train (0555?) which, on the occasions I used it, was always a 304. Not a comfortable journey!

I suspect traction knowledge was a significant issue - I doubt Crewe drivers signed 310s for example, nor did drivers on the southern section sign 304s.

 

[Springs Branch]

I suspect traction knowledge was a significant issue - I doubt Crewe drivers signed 310s for example, nor did drivers on the southern section sign 304s.

I wonder whether a 310 ever made it to Lime St on the Crewe/Liverpool stoppers?

 

[Bevan Price]

312.204 in Manchester Piccadilly, 1987.

 

[Ianigsy]

One of the highlights of the trip from Liverpool to Euston circa 1980 was the yard at Wolverton Works, where I’d be able to see all manner of weird and wonderful Great Eastern units that I’d never see otherwise in a month of Sundays.