EMR Class 360's

[43066]

Drop the fares to be more like Northampton and I think people would be fine with it.

I doubt this is an issue to many people outside of this forum. The only only people who will even know what the fares are from Northampton to compare will be those who regularly do both journeys, perhaps living equidistant between there and Kettering.

The majority of Connect passengers either won’t know or won’t be in a position to practically choose LNWR over EMR even if they do know.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2022 ==

The inference they did not know they were getting Class 360 units until after COVID struck is wrong.
They knew they were getting class 360 in 2019. They did not plan ahead and secure a contract for the refurbishment in time.

If they knew they were getting class 360s in 2019, then they knew before Covid struck. Things have changed since. You seem desperate to look for a conspiracy where I highly doubt there is one…

 

[MML]

I doubt this is an issue to many people outside of this forum. The only only people who will even know what the fares are from Northampton to compare will be those who regularly do both journeys, perhaps living equidistant between there and Kettering.

The majority of Connect passengers either won’t know or won’t be in a position to practically choose LNWR over EMR even if they do know.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2022 ==



If they knew they were getting class 360s in 2019, then they knew before Covid struck. Things have changed since. You seem desperate to look for a conspiracy where I highly doubt there is one…

No. I'm not looking for a conspiracy. I just wish to point out EMR had opportunity to secure a refurbishment contract at a time they were talking publicly about the introduction of electric units. As always they talk a good tale. But fail to deliver promptly on their promises.

 

[43066]

No. I'm not looking for a conspiracy. I just wish to point out EMR had opportunity to secure a refurbishment contract at a time they were talking publicly about the introduction of electric units. As always they talk a good tale. But fail to deliver promptly on their promises.

Even if they had secured such a contract it might well have been rendered null and void by intervening events triggering a force majeure clause. Or the DfT might have instructed them to simply cancel it and underwritten any associated costs.

It’s pointless blaming EMR when the DfT are controlling their spending and making these decisions for them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The majority of Connect passengers either won’t know or won’t be in a position to practically choose LNWR over EMR even if they do know.

I disagree. The vast majority are in the position to drive to Northampton and by doing so save a packet.

 

[43066]

I disagree. The vast majority are in the position to drive to Northampton and by doing so save a packet.

Is there any evidence that EMR are losing significant revenue to LNWR? If (and only if) there is, there might be a sensible case for EMR’s fares being reduced.

Of course, if people can drive to Northampton, presumably they can also drive to Wellingborough or Bedford…

 

[43096]

Even if they had secured such a contract it might well have been rendered null and void by intervening events triggering a force majeure clause. Or the DfT might have instructed them to simply cancel it and underwritten any associated costs.

It’s pointless blaming EMR when the DfT are controlling their spending and making these decisions for them.

Indeed. Even pre-Covid these contracts had to be signed off by DfT, and you can bet they would drag their heels to the last possible moment before approving (because the Civil Service is utterly incapable of doing anything quickly).

I disagree. The vast majority are in the position to drive to Northampton and by doing so save a packet.

How do you know? What evidence do you have? (And no, the fact you post it x times a week or whatever is not evidence).

 

[Domh245]

Post#1 referred to 110mph modifications starting in June 2020. Post COVID.
However, EMR published a public timetable consultation regarding the use of EMR Electrics (class 360's) on 25 November 2019.
The inference they did not know they were getting Class 360 units until after COVID struck is wrong.
They knew they were getting class 360 in 2019. They did not plan ahead and secure a contract for the refurbishment in time.
I wasn't expecting EMR to send them for refurbishment prior to March 2020. But they had ample opportunity to secure a contract for refurbishment prior to COVID.

I'm not arguing that they didn't know that they were getting 360s, just that there was no chance of them either commencing or realistically being able to arrange this before Covid. Indeed, with the bidding process going on since 2018 they (bid team) will have known for a long time what was incoming. However, until the legal entity is awarded the contract (April 2019) and starts to operate (August 2019) then they can't really organise too much (and a 'simple' refurbishment will be down the list of priorities compared to big ticket and long lead-time items like wholly new rolling stock)

There will also have been significant uncertainty that would have also prevented a refurbishment program being committed to (720 introduction to service/360 release from GA, Bedford-Corby switch on date, etc) - at least without being significantly overpriced to reflect that uncertainty

Even with all that said, if a contract was in place for refurbishment and they hadn't started the program, then I think it's safe to say that this would have been paused with the onset of the EMAs and then interfered with (as it has been) with the ERMAs. It really needed to have started pre-covid to have stood a chance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, if people can drive to Northampton, presumably they can also drive to Wellingborough or Bedford…

Pretty sure Wellingborough still has IC fares. Bedford, yes, that's more affordable but Thameslink will get a lot of the dosh.

 

[43066]

Pretty sure Wellingborough still has IC fares. Bedford, yes, that's more affordable but Thameslink will get a lot of the dosh.

But considering it from the EMR/DfT point of view, there’s surely no rational objection to charging IC fares at either location, unless there’s evidence they’re reducing revenue, as opposed to passengers?

If those deterred end up just using TL or LNWR instead there’s no objection from a global “railway” perspective either.

 

[RailWonderer]

I disagree. The vast majority are in the position to drive to Northampton and by doing so save a packet.

Then there’s paying for parking at Northampton. Will there really be a cost saving in the end, plus the added journey time of the car + train?

EMR dragged their feet when they didn’t need to and took no pride in the new trains they were receiving. They have lost points in my book as a TOC when they did that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Then there’s paying for parking at Northampton. Will there really be a cost saving in the end, plus the added journey time of the car + train?

Wellingborough to London Anytime £110 (outrageous)
Northampton to London Anytime £69.20 (still quite high)
Bedford to London Anytime £47.70 (more like it)

Wellingborough to Bedford 35 minutes drive according to Google (and a far better service).

I know what I'd be doing!

Question is, should the railway be encouraging car travel like that?

 

[43066]

Wellingborough to London Anytime £110 (outrageous)
Northampton to London Anytime £69.20 (still quite high)
Bedford to London Anytime £47.70 (more like it)

Wellingborough to Bedford 35 minutes drive according to Google (and a far better service).

I know what I'd be doing!

Yet useage of 360s at Wellingborough is good and rising. It just shows (again) how the accepted wisdom on this forum doesn’t accord with what happens in the real world…

 

[fgwrich]

Yet useage of 360s at Wellingborough is good and rising. It just shows (again) how the accepted wisdom on this forum doesn’t accord with what happens in the real world…

Indeed.

Also, can we not turn this into yet another EMR Connect fares debate, again.

 

[F Great Eastern]

They were on a full Siemens maintenance contract until 2016 then once GA won the franchise again and ordered an entire fleet replacement they reduced it to a partial until 2019 then there was no maintennance contract. The last ones were withdrawn in a decaying state in Jan 21, when I last went on one. The MTIN collapsed from 84k to 18k in that time as well.

Thats odd as I also work for GA in the Engineering department and do not recall any GA Depot Staff being responsible for the Class 360 maintenance.
A few GA Engineering Staff were responsible for in service failures / incident recovery but that has been the case for many years and those staff members did not get involved in Maintenance tasks, that was always Siemens remit.

Siemens a number of years put out brochures which included the agreements that they had with the relevant TOCS in terms of maintenance.

The earlier ones during National Express East Anglia listed 'Full Service' for the 360s, but later ones listed 'Maintenance' for the 360s whereas the other operators of similar units continued to be listed as 'Full Service'.

I'm not saying that this is the only reason for what happened to these units, but maintenance only contracts have always been cheaper than Full Service since they cover less overall.

 

[Helvellyn]

I can understand Wellingborough passengers having been annoyed initially but, now that the service has bedded down, even they are seeing the benefit of more seats and a more evenly spaced service to London.

When it runs. In disruption the Connect Service is just abandoned. Luton/Bedford still have GTR; Kettering has the InterCity services. Wellingborough just gets abandoned. I have experienced that three times in two months now, most recently on Saturday.

I know some people from Wellingborough who are now driving to Kettering to commute on the IC services, others from Rushden/Higham who are driving to Bedford.

The lack of the IC style refurbishment will also keep more Kettering passengers on the IC services (and have seen Corby passengers change at Kettering as well to do that).

I doubt this is an issue to many people outside of this forum. The only only people who will even know what the fares are from Northampton to compare will be those who regularly do both journeys, perhaps living equidistant between there and Kettering.

The majority of Connect passengers either won’t know or won’t be in a position to practically choose LNWR over EMR even if they know.

Plenty of people do know. A half hourly peak service is worse than the old peak service before connect, and actually many people (myself included) made reservations so we had a seat, and if you didn't you had five services between 7-8 am. Two would be fine if reliable, etc.

Connect brings many benefits but not to Wellingborough and the surrounding towns which is actually a big catchment area. It's also part of the reason Stanton Cross develops are pushing back on the multi-storey they are meant to build at the station because North/South connectivity and InterCity style services were what they were advertising in London. The houses will still sell but the developers recognise the rail service has changed completely.

I've said it before in this thread - if the promised refurb with Aurora style seating can't happen at least aim for 2+2 with the current seats and add spacers like the SWR 455s.

 

[AM9]

Post#1 referred to 110mph modifications starting in June 2020. Post COVID.
However, EMR published a public timetable consultation regarding the use of EMR Electrics (class 360's) on 25 November 2019.
The inference they did not know they were getting Class 360 units until after COVID struck is wrong.
They knew they were getting class 360 in 2019. They did not plan ahead and secure a contract for the refurbishment in time.
I wasn't expecting EMR to send them for refurbishment prior to March 2020. But they had ample opportunity to secure a contract for refurbishment prior to COVID.

Four months is not necessarily long enough to secure a contract for the work, - especially given that there was no reason to rush at the time.

 

[43055]

When it runs. In disruption the Connect Service is just abandoned. Luton/Bedford still have GTR; Kettering has the InterCity services. Wellingborough just gets abandoned. I have experienced that three times in two months now, most recently on Saturday.

Looking at RTT all but 2 connect services ran on Saturday between Wellingborough and London and back so I wouldn't say it was abandoned.

 

[Helvellyn]

Looking at RTT all but 2 connect services ran on Saturday between Wellingborough and London and back so I wouldn't say it was abandoned.

Given how long I and many others were stuck at Wellingborough on Saturday I will disagree. RTT was not reflecting what was actually running.

 

[spotify95]

350/2 a like interiors would be fine if they weren't charging InterCity fares. Drop the fares to be more like Northampton and I think people would be fine with it.

Remember, if a Wellingborough user splits their ticket at Bedford, they save about £40 on an Anytime Day Travelcard compared to the standard fare...
Bedford (and south) already get decent fares.
Kettering probably uses Intercity services anyway.
Corby... unless you split at Bedford, you might as well get the IC from Kettering.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this is a Traction & Rolling Stock thread to discuss EMR Class 360s

Any discussion on anything else (including suggestions for electrification, line re-openings, debates on ticketing) should be posted in a new thread (if there isn't one already) or an existing one (if there is), in an appropriate forum section.

 

[Bald Rick]

Just been on a 360 - perfectly comfortable I thought.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just been on a 360 - perfectly comfortable I thought.

350/2 with seatback tables, basically. Perfectly fine for Northampton-Euston/Bedford-St P, but not at the InterCity fares charged for north of Bedford.

 

[43066]

but not at the InterCity fares charged for north of Bedford.

On the basis that people are evidently willing to pay those fares they’re perfectly fine for those, too! I note we’ve been asked more than once to stay off ticketing/fares.


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2022 ==

Just been on a 360 - perfectly comfortable I thought.

I agree. I find them more comfortable than the 700s on the same route, and more comfortable then 222 standard class seats these days.

 

[Bald Rick]

I agree. I find them more comfortable than the 700s on the same route, and more comfortable then 222 standard class seats these days.

I thought 360 standard was more comfortable than Meridian first.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought 360 standard was more comfortable than Meridian first.

You thought a 3+2 layout was more comfortable than a 2+1 layout? Crikey.

 

[43066]

I thought 360 standard was more comfortable than Meridian first.

2+1, faux leather and the presence (usually) of someone to make you a cuppa clinches it for the blue seats, as far as I’m concerned .

 

[Bald Rick]

You thought a 3+2 layout was more comfortable than a 2+1 layout? Crikey.

Yep!

Had a bay of 6 to myself, rather an a bay of 2. I make that 200% extra room

 

[43066]

Yep!

Had a bay of 6 to myself, rather an a bay of 2. I make that 200% extra room

Just don’t use the loos!

 

[Bald Rick]

Just don’t use the loos!

no need to on a journey of less than an hour!

 

[43066]

You thought a 3+2 layout was more comfortable than a 2+1 layout? Crikey.

As a fully paid up seat aficionado, you must surely concede the 360 seats are amongst the best out there (putting the layout aside)?!