EMR Class 360's

[43066]

Indeed - it’s an absolute joke. EMR had 3 years to get their ducks in a row regarding this refurbishment, and once again the East suffers whilst the West thrives… hard to believe these are what replaced the 222s!

Except that, as noted just two posts above yours, it’s the DfT not agreeing to the refurb in the current environment…

 

[STINT47]

Reading the artical it makes me wonder if EMR are suffering from dilusions.

It also states that the connect service is the best performing for customer satisfaction and they're ready to run 12 car trains when asked. Sorry but I know lots whi aren't happy with it and there are still plenty of services formed of 4 cars so 12 cars is a strange comment.

 

[43074]

Reading the artical it makes me wonder if EMR are suffering from dilusions.

It also states that the connect service is the best performing for customer satisfaction and they're ready to run 12 car trains when asked. Sorry but I know lots whi aren't happy with it and there are still plenty of services formed of 4 cars so 12 cars is a strange comment.

12 cars will depend on the maintenance situation improving, but operations at Bedford Cauldwell depot should improve from December as the article says which will help.

 

[QSK19]

Reading the latest issue of Modern Railways it quotes EMRs fleet director on the 360 refurbishment...

"We've had to fix the scope to the right cost - we're operating in a totally different environment compared to when the project was conceived"

It goes on to say that they would love to see a full refurbishment but it's likely to be a bit less and goes on say examples of the but less may be no new seats and retaining the 3 + 2.

Not very impressive in my view. I can accept costs may only pay for new seat covers and carpets etc except other fleets like the Pemdolino's are getting the full refurbishment.

This would be an absolute disgrace and, to be honest, I’d rather have no refurbishment than have a pitiful excuse for what will probably end up as seat cover change only. This extremely light refurbishment would be a constant reminder to Connect passengers of how disregarded and disrespected they are.

The DfT’s refurbishment budget should be directed as a priority towards the 360s. These form part of EMR’s permanent fleet - they should be the flagship of a TOC’s clean, electric operations; but we’re ending up with grubby interiors, 3+2 seating, no mod cons and a commuter service for which one has to pay IC level fares. I believe that there are historical anomalies for this; but it doesn’t detract from the fact that people are overpaying for an underwhelming product.

And in terms of the Pendos, I travelled quite a bit on them pre-Covid and, to be honest, they were perfectly acceptable and in better nick then the 360s. Seems like the DfT is directing money at its favourites and not giving a stuff about others.

 

[miklcct]

All these posts highlighting refurbs elsewhere, IMO, make things even more depressing for the Connect (and Regional for that matter) services and its passengers. It has been mentioned to death that Connect passengers effectively have a commuter/regional express service whilst paying IC fares. Not only that, but the 360s are part of EMR’s permanent fleet; so efforts should be going into getting those in shape - and the standard of refurb befitting of an IC service - instead of giving refurbs to stock elsewhere on the network that is/was probably in better condition pre-refurb than the 360s currently are (eg the 390s that I travelled on quite a few times over the past several years are/were much better than the 360s’ current state).

At least if the DfT are going to hand half-knackered, unwanted stock to the East Midlands, have the decency to respect the poor passengers who have to put up with them. The excuse of their being no money doesn’t cut it, especially given that they seem to magic some up for rolling stock investment elsewhere.

This would be an absolute disgrace and, to be honest, I’d rather have no refurbishment than have a pitiful excuse for what will probably end up as seat cover change only. This extremely light refurbishment would be a constant reminder to Connect passengers of how disregarded and disrespected they are.

The DfT’s refurbishment budget should be directed as a priority towards the 360s. These form part of EMR’s permanent fleet - they should be the flagship of a TOC’s clean, electric operations; but we’re ending up with grubby interiors, 3+2 seating, no mod cons and a commuter service for which one has to pay IC level fares. I believe that there are historical anomalies for this; but it doesn’t detract from the fact that people are overpaying for an underwhelming product.

And in terms of the Pendos, I travelled quite a bit on them pre-Covid and, to be honest, they were perfectly acceptable and in better nick then the 360s. Seems like the DfT is directing money at its favourites and not giving a stuff about others.

It is in fact a regional express operation. It isn't even branded Intercity.

It is comparable to the medium-distance routes of South Western Railway, e.g. Waterloo - Portsmouth, or the regional routes of London Northwestern Railway, e.g. Euston - Crewe.

The price problem has already been solved by splitting at Luton Airport Parkway, a station where the commuter trains but not the intercity trains calls at.

 

[Doomotron]

Looks like they should have gone with the 379s in the end...

 

[swt_passenger]

Looks like they should have gone with the 379s in the end...

Only with 20/20 hindsight though? They weren’t the obvious choice, in terms of matching the fleet size to the planned diagrams, back when the decision was made.

 

[MML]

We were promised 12-car units for peak services. This was merely a sop to offer respite from overcrowding as recompense for the withdrawal of an inter-city service. At best we get 8-car commuter trains which are now quite busy on peak services. At worst, we get 4-car formations which are unbelievably overcrowded.

We were promised new interiors with new seats providing an inter-city equivalent product. At present we have units with filthy carpets, threadbare seats, semi-functioning lighting and at best vibrating, at worst non-functioning air conditioning. Now after all the spin and advertising showing new interiors and seating products, we learn the same seats in 3+2 configuration are likely to be re-upholstered and carpets replaced.
I honestly don't believe anything EMR promise. In a few months, we'll be told it's been downgraded to a deep clean and a sprinkle of 'shake and vac' on the stained and grubby carpets.

EMR had the opportunity to push through the refurbishment before COVID. They delayed and chose not to. Now it can't be done under the DfT financial straight jacket. COVID and the downturn in ridership is just the latest excuse for over promising and under delivering.
It is only when the rail industry wakes up and realises the only way to encourage more customers to travel by train is to reliably provide a quality product at a reasonable price. EMR and their DfT paymasters are currently failing to achieve anything more than a new paint job and PR branding waffle which customers will tolerate for so long and then come to despise.

If EMR Connect is the best performing service group in customer surveys, the other service groups must be atrocious.
But I honestly do not believe anything which the EMR propaganda machine publishes. Nothing they say or do in their spin, is matched by deeds or actions.

 

[QSK19]

It is in fact a regional express operation. It isn't even branded Intercity.

That is exactly how I would describe it - it clearly is not a regional/commuter service, yet it doesn’t reach the IC threshold.

What I was getting at in terms of IC is precedent - the route has historically had IC stock, users have paid IC fares (though I recognise the point about fare-splitting) and the promised refurbishment was up to an IC standard. Therefore, whilst it is, as you say, a regional express level of service, precedent means that its passengers should expect an IC level of comfort.

Goes to shows that one should never overpromise and then miserably underachieve - at least be honest and set expectations at an achievable/manageable standard and then this travesty of a refurbishment would have been more palatable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2022 ==

At present we have units with filthy carpets, threadbare seats, semi-functioning lighting and at best vibrating, at worst non-functioning air conditioning.

Add to that a roof leak that my son and I spotted when we went to Wellingborough on 114 in October last year. Btw, it was definitely a roof leak - too much water pouring through for it to have been air con condensation. Hopefully, Eastleigh have repaired that one!

 

[Domh245]

EMR had the opportunity to push through the refurbishment before COVID. They delayed and chose not to.

That's a rather revisionist take! As evidenced by post #1 of this thread, the first Cl360 wasn't sent for 110mph modifications until June 2020 and even then was still returned to GA for a few months more regular service there. Certainly don't think it was the case that EMR could have sent them for full refurbishment (or even had it approved and in place) prior to March 2020!

 

[QSK19]

That's a rather revisionist take! As evidenced by post #1 of this thread, the first Cl360 wasn't sent for 110mph modifications until June 2020 and even then was still returned to GA for a few months more regular service there. Certainly don't think it was the case that EMR could have sent them for full refurbishment (or even had it approved and in place) prior to March 2020!

Given that GA and EMR are both owned by the same company, couldn’t some foresight have been had? As in, as soon as it became official that the 360s were moving to EMR, couldn’t Abellio have got the refurbishment nailed down and contractually agreed? That way, they could have taken as long as they wanted to refurbish them safe in the knowledge that it would definitely go ahead according to the promised specification.

 

[Doomotron]

Only with 20/20 hindsight though? They weren’t the obvious choice, in terms of matching the fleet size to the planned diagrams, back when the decision was made.

Oh absolutely, they wouldn't have known what would happen in the future. However if they had gone with the 379s, they would have not needed to do a refurbishment (merely a refresh and even that wouldn't be a priority), first class would still be viable, there wouldn't be the guard issue, and the trains would be newer.

 

[John R]

One of my complaints about Modern Railways (which in the main I consider an excellent publication) is that it accepts the positive spin too easily when a situation which is clearly unacceptable is spun. The saga of the 360 refurbishment is one obvious example.

As another example, later on in the same EMR feature it states without any criticism that south of Bedford the "minimum viable product" or "best value option" may be "discontinuous electrification for 125mph units". And it notes without comment that a decision hasn't yet been made on how extensive the project will be a mere 3 years after the order for the Class 810s was made.

 

[DannyMich2018]

Had a short trip from Kett to Corby today. This is unit 360102. Other unit attached was 115.

 

[fgwrich]

Had a short trip from Kett to Corby today. This is unit 360102. Other unit attached was 115.

To be fair to EMR, for all the moaning and groaning about these units, those seats look a dam sight better than those on SWR at the moment. Tired Yes. Filthy, no. This is some of the seats in this evenings units. This isn’t just this unit, this is becoming very representative of the SWR fleet at the moment.

 

[185143]

To be fair to EMR, for all the moaning and groaning about these units, those seats look a dam sight better than those on SWR at the moment. Tired Yes. Filthy, no. This is some of the seats in this evenings units. This isn’t just this unit, this is becoming very representative of the SWR fleet at the moment.

That's disgraceful.

To be fair, regarding the 360s, the image attached above are probably the best looking 360 seats I've ever seen!

 

[43102EMR]

To be fair to EMR, for all the moaning and groaning about these units, those seats look a dam sight better than those on SWR at the moment. Tired Yes. Filthy, no. This is some of the seats in this evenings units. This isn’t just this unit, this is becoming very representative of the SWR fleet at the moment.

There’s more than meets the eye with the 360 units - having rode on one the other week, the interior was just as grubby and disgusting as that SWR one, guess it varies by unit… that and the GA moquette hides it a lot better!

 

[dk1]

Given that GA and EMR are both owned by the same company, couldn’t some foresight have been had? As in, as soon as it became official that the 360s were moving to EMR, couldn’t Abellio have got the refurbishment nailed down and contractually agreed? That way, they could have taken as long as they wanted to refurbish them safe in the knowledge that it would definitely go ahead according to the promised specification.

The two franchises would operate totally independent regardless of the parent company.

 

[QSK19]

There’s more than meets the eye with the 360 units - having rode on one the other week, the interior was just as grubby and disgusting as that SWR one, guess it varies by unit… that and the GA moquette hides it a lot better!

Agreed. When I was on 114 (and then 108 for the return trip), the seats were so grubby that I had to walk through 2 whole cars before reaching a pair of seats that didn’t have brown stains or gum on them. It was terrible; so if the 360s are really going to stay in that condition (which I wouldn’t be surprised about because sod’s law is that they’ll invariably relegate it to no refurbishment), god help the poor Connect users.

 

[43066]

The DfT’s refurbishment budget should be directed as a priority towards the 360s.

That’s easy to say but unfortunately isn’t within the gift of EMR or “The Railway” in general.

It is in fact a regional express operation. It isn't even branded Intercity.

It is comparable to the medium-distance routes of South Western Railway, e.g. Waterloo - Portsmouth, or the regional routes of London Northwestern Railway, e.g. Euston - Crewe.

The price problem has already been solved by splitting at Luton Airport Parkway, a station where the commuter trains but not the intercity trains calls at.

Absolutely. The trains are perfectly adequate for the journeys they serve. Many passengers (especially those travelling south of Bedford) are happy with the service which is a step up from GTR in terms of both comfort and speed. The EMR IC passengers have also all benefited from faster trains and fewer stops.

I can understand Wellingborough passengers having been annoyed initially but, now that the service has bedded down, even they are seeing the benefit of more seats and a more evenly spaced service to London.

We were promised 12-car units for peak services. This was merely a sop to offer respite from overcrowding as recompense for the withdrawal of an inter-city service. At best we get 8-car commuter trains which are now quite busy on peak services. At worst, we get 4-car formations which are unbelievably overcrowded.

Those 8 car commuter trains have far more seats than the IC units they replaced. The IC passengers also (quite rightly) don’t want their trains to stop at Bedford and the Lutons. Most Connect services are now 8 cars and seats are generally available at all apart from the busiest times. Therefore the complaint at the lack of 12 cars isn’t really justified.

Therefore, whilst it is, as you say, a regional express level of service, precedent means that its passengers should expect an IC level of comfort.

It doesn’t work like that. Also the 360 seats are arguably more comfortable than the Meridian standard class.

That's a rather revisionist take! As evidenced by post #1 of this thread, the first Cl360 wasn't sent for 110mph modifications until June 2020 and even then was still returned to GA for a few months more regular service there. Certainly don't think it was the case that EMR could have sent them for full refurbishment (or even had it approved and in place) prior to March 2020!

Absolutely.

 

[QSK19]

Also the 360 seats are arguably more comfortable than the Meridian standard class.

I don’t agree at all; but I think we’ll have to agree to disagree - as has been proved in many, many threads on RF, seat comfort is one of the most subjective topics!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2022 ==

The trains are perfectly adequate for the journeys they serve. Many passengers (especially those travelling south of Bedford) are happy with the service which is a step up from GTR in terms of both comfort and speed.

I agree, however that is no excuse/justification for what seems to look like it’ll be a woefully inadequate refurbishment and putting up with a tired, grubby interior.

Whilst the advantages are being somewhat reaped (remembering that there have been many services running as 4-car, though that should hopefully get better once they’ve eventually all gone through Eastleigh), the Connect users are paying good money to travel on the 360s; so the least they deserve is a comfortable journey with refreshed, clean interiors.

 

[43066]

I don’t agree at all; but I think we’ll have to agree to disagree - as has been proved in many, many threads on RF, seat comfort is one of the most subjective topics!

True!

I agree, however that is no excuse/justification for what seems to look like it’ll be a woefully inadequate refurbishment and putting up with a tired, grubby interior.

I think the “but it used to be an Intercity”route” is the issue here and has perhaps artificially raised expectations. It probably shouldn’t ever have been “Intercity” and was so only because of a historical anomaly.

If you put that to one side, and accept that it’s a regional express, do the 360s really compare that unfavourably with equivalent stock on other routes, which would be LNWR/SWR Desiros, GTR 377s and 700s, SE 375s etc?

Whilst the advantages are being somewhat reaped (remembering that there have been many services running as 4-car, though that should hopefully get better once they’ve eventually all gone through Eastleigh), the Connect users are paying good money to travel on the 360s; so the least they deserve is a comfortable journey with refreshed, clean interiors.

I think the reliability is more to do with space at Cauldwell, and initially was down to the units having sat idle for a long period, maintenance staff finding their feet etc. I completely agree with you that the reliability was too poor for far too long. Things are noticeably better and more consistent on that front and should improve further still as per the article cited above.

 

[QSK19]

do the 360s really compare that unfavourably with equivalent stock on other routes, which would be LNWR/SWR Desiros, GTR 377s and 700s, SE 375s etc?

I do agree that they are comparators to the stock you have mentioned - as I have said, I agree that Connect is a regional express service - however I can’t let go of my point that its passengers deserve a good refurbishment. Fresh interiors for a fresh start

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do agree that they are comparators to the stock you have mentioned - as I have said, I agree that Connect is a regional express service - however I can’t let go of my point that its passengers deserve a good refurbishment. Fresh interiors for a fresh start

350/2 a like interiors would be fine if they weren't charging InterCity fares. Drop the fares to be more like Northampton and I think people would be fine with it.

 

[43066]

its passengers deserve a good refurbishment.

I completely agree a lot of the Connect passengers could do with being spruced up a bit. Especially the ones who get on at Luton .

 

[InTheEastMids]

I agree, however that is no excuse/justification for what seems to look like it’ll be a woefully inadequate refurbishment and putting up with a tired, grubby interior.

This thread might imply to the casual reader that Cl360 with tired, grubby interiors replaced pristine Cl222s.
Have you travelled on a Class 222 recently? In particular, the seats are in an absolutely appalling state now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This thread might imply to the casual reader that Cl360 with tired, grubby interiors replaced pristine Cl222s.
Have you travelled on a Class 222 recently? In particular, the seats are in an absolutely appalling state now.

I agree they're tatty (they were the last time I used one in 2019, let alone 3 years later), but they're at least 2+2.

I wonder would it be feasible to convert to 2+2 on the cheap by either just taking the third seat off or by fabricating new metal frames but using the existing bases and cushions, something a bit like Merseyrail's refurbs? There's not a lot wrong with the Grammer E3000 in and of itself, and the 3+2 ones are the same width as the 2+2 ones other than the lack of armrests, evidenced by the cushions being used interchangeably on some 350s.

 

[supervc-10]

A refurbishment to 350/1 standard would be ideal IMO. Keep the Grammer seats, just re-space them and give them new covers+cushions. I don't think there's a need for totally new seat frames as had previously been mooted (to match the 810s).

If they keep 3+2, then a rethink on the fares is definitely needed, to bring things more in line with other similar journeys.

 

[QSK19]

This thread might imply to the casual reader that Cl360 with tired, grubby interiors replaced pristine Cl222s.
Have you travelled on a Class 222 recently? In particular, the seats are in an absolutely appalling state now.

Yes, I travel on the 222s very regularly, the last occasion being yesterday. I am not denying that they’re grubby (IMO, they are definitely not pristine, let me put that firmly on record); however when it comes to which accommodation I’d choose out of a bad selection, it’d be the 222s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Sep 2022 ==

A refurbishment to 350/1 standard would be ideal IMO.

Agreed - would be a good standard and would achieve a middle ground between what was promised originally, what is realistically financially achievable and freshening up the current setup.

 

[MML]

That's a rather revisionist take! As evidenced by post #1 of this thread, the first Cl360 wasn't sent for 110mph modifications until June 2020 and even then was still returned to GA for a few months more regular service there. Certainly don't think it was the case that EMR could have sent them for full refurbishment (or even had it approved and in place) prior to March 2020!

Post#1 referred to 110mph modifications starting in June 2020. Post COVID.
However, EMR published a public timetable consultation regarding the use of EMR Electrics (class 360's) on 25 November 2019.
The inference they did not know they were getting Class 360 units until after COVID struck is wrong.
They knew they were getting class 360 in 2019. They did not plan ahead and secure a contract for the refurbishment in time.
I wasn't expecting EMR to send them for refurbishment prior to March 2020. But they had ample opportunity to secure a contract for refurbishment prior to COVID.