EMR Class 170 updates

[43096]

A total of 35, 12 TfW (Including 273) and 23 WMR. Not sure what that means in terms of cascades as there's 20 156's and 26 158s listed, just taken the info from Wiki.

And 5 ex-ScotRail.

It’s a total of:
- 23 x 2-car from West Mids
- 4 x 2-car from TfW
- 8 x 3-car from TfW
- 5 x 3-car from ScotRail
Total 93 vehicles.

 

[QSK19]

The 156s will go, with some 158s retained, surely?

Presumably the 158s (or some of them) will be retained for Nottingham-Liverpool.

 

[43102EMR]

Presumably the 158s (or some of them) will be retained for Nottingham-Liverpool.

Considering EMR promised “all trains will be replaced”, that won’t go very well for them in the long run if it happens.

 

[STINT47]

The only way that I can see EMR going fully 170 is with the transfer of some Southern units. However as previously discussed this is looking very unlikely now as Southern have no viable replacements.

Although EMR promised a full 170 regional fleet in their franchise it's worth noting that the franchise agreement has ended and the government now calls the shots. I suspect this will not be the only thing that does not get delivered now given the need to save money.

If the 158s get a decent refurb to the same standard as the 170s then I dont see it being a big issue for most people. If no refurbishment happens then people will not be happy but I doubt EMR or the DFT will that be bothered.

 

[samuelmorris]

Considering EMR promised “all trains will be replaced”, that won’t go very well for them in the long run if it happens.

A TOC not honouring their franchise commitments? Never seen that before :P

 

[43102EMR]

The only way that I can see EMR going fully 170 is with the transfer of some Southern units. However as previously discussed this is looking very unlikely now as Southern have no viable replacements.

Although EMR promised a full 170 regional fleet in their franchise it's worth noting that the franchise agreement has ended and the government now calls the shots. I suspect this will not be the only thing that does not get delivered now given the need to save money.

If the 158s get a decent refurb to the same standard as the 170s then I dont see it being a big issue for most people. If no refurbishment happens then people will not be happy but I doubt EMR or the DFT will that be bothered.

There could also be some surprise options, which given recent events that happened last year (i.e. with the Welsh 170s) this wouldn’t surprise me at all. But who knows at this stage?

Personally if it was up to me, I’d interchange the 170s and 158s on Regionals as was done back in the Central Trains days

 

[Nottingham59]

Presumably the 158s (or some of them) will be retained for Nottingham-Liverpool.

Considering EMR promised “all trains will be replaced”, that won’t go very well for them in the long run if it happens.

To be fair to EMR, that promise was made on the understanding that the Nottingham-Liverpool service would be transferred to another franchise operator.

 

[LowLevel]

Even pre COVID there was some concern that the number of 170s would actually be insufficient with consideration being given to refurbishing a smaller fleet of 158s for Norwich services.

Now all the bets are off, anything could happen and the plans change regularly.

 

[STINT47]

With all the uncertainty and changing plans you would almost think that those in power have no developed a long term stratergy for the railways and it's trains. In fact it'like they make it up as they go from one problem to another.

 

[WillPS]

There could also be some surprise options, which given recent events that happened last year (i.e. with the Welsh 170s) this wouldn’t surprise me at all. But who knows at this stage?

Personally if it was up to me, I’d interchange the 170s and 158s on Regionals as was done back in the Central Trains days

As happened in the Central Trains days they weren't particularly good at sticking to any stock on any diagram...

 

[Roast Veg]

Considering EMR promised “all trains will be replaced”, that won’t go very well for them in the long run if it happens.

All bets are off if the assumptions made at bidding time no longer apply.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

The WMR 170/5s will go to EMR when the 196s come in at some point this year.

 

[170UTD]

Will EMR get the TfW 170s when the 231s enter service or will internal cascades mean that they can be transferred a bit earlier when the 197s or the 230s come into traffic?

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

Northern have a small batch of 170's wouldn't they be better off letting these go in exchange for additional 158's to allow so standardisation of m'tc and unit knowledge?

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Northern have a small batch of 170's wouldn't they be better off letting these go in exchange for additional 158's to allow so standardisation of m'tc and unit knowledge?

Northern 170s are not part of the arrangement.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2022 ==

Will EMR get the TfW 170s when the 231s enter service or will internal cascades mean that they can be transferred a bit earlier when the 197s or the 230s come into traffic?

I know they have a 170/2 which used to be ex GA and TFW but now EMR. Can't remember if they are getting more from TFW or not. The majority EMR will get are all the WMR 170s and they have already ex SR 170/4s as well.

 

[Neptune]

Northern have a small batch of 170's wouldn't they be better off letting these go in exchange for additional 158's to allow so standardisation of m'tc and unit knowledge?

It never takes long to get around to yet another suggestion of Northern taking someone else’s 30+ year old cast offs in exchange for their 17 year old 170’s which are getting their own dedicated maintenance facilities in Hull at great expense.

 

[Caaardiff]

Will EMR get the TfW 170s when the 231s enter service or will internal cascades mean that they can be transferred a bit earlier when the 197s or the 230s come into traffic?

Eventually yes. TfW still very much need them though. The 231s are working Rhymney services when they enter service until the 756s arrive.

 

[43102EMR]

Northern 170s are not part of the arrangement.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2022 ==


I know they have a 170/2 which used to be ex GA and TFW but now EMR. Can't remember if they are getting more from TFW or not. The majority EMR will get are all the WMR 170s and they have already ex SR 170/4s as well.

They’re getting the remaining 11 once TfW’s new stock enters service.

 

[Norm_D_Ploom]

It never takes long to get around to yet another suggestion of Northern taking someone else’s 30+ year old cast offs in exchange for their 17 year old 170’s which are getting their own dedicated maintenance facilities in Hull at great expense.

" Wouldn't they be better" sentence ending with a ?

How is that a suggestion?

 

[Wyrleybart]

It never takes long to get around to yet another suggestion of Northern taking someone else’s 30+ year old cast offs in exchange for their 17 year old 170’s which are getting their own dedicated maintenance facilities in Hull at great expense.

Far from it. My solution would have been for Northern to have more 195s and transfer the ex Scotrail 170s to Cornwall.
That would
Simplify competency and maintenance of Northern by removing a traction class
Lessen the age profile for Northern
Eliminate the expensive to run and 40+ year old GWR HSTs
End the age old issue of GWR West services being run by ancient old stock.
Lessen the age profile for GWR

 

[170UTD]

Eventually yes. TfW still very much need them though. The 231s are working Rhymney services when they enter service until the 756s arrive.

Oh, I thought that the 231s were going to be the direct replacement for the 170s? Hopefully, at the very least TfW will be able to release the remaining 3 2 car units to EMR when the 231s enterservice, if they can't release all of them.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It never takes long to get around to yet another suggestion of Northern taking someone else’s 30+ year old cast offs in exchange for their 17 year old 170’s which are getting their own dedicated maintenance facilities in Hull at great expense.

But you don't have to dig far to find grumbles about "micro-fleets". These dedicated maintenance facilities would presumably require less expense if they only had to deal with 158s, as opposed to handling a mixed fleet of 155s, 158s and 170s.

 

[43102EMR]

Oh, I thought that the 231s were going to be the direct replacement for the 170s? Hopefully, at the very least TfW will be able to release the remaining 3 2 car units to EMR when the 231s enterservice, if they can't release all of them.

A shuffle around of stock is why they’re available to EMR in the first place - ex-GC mk4 purchase enables some 197 Manchester to Swansea diagrams to be covered by them, those 197s then cover the West Wales routes the 170s were meant to do and the 153s stay on the HoW Line, removing the need for them at all once they’re replaced by the FLIRTs.

 

[childwallblues]

Shortage of stock? Take the 175s for use on Nottingham to Liverpool. Lovely cumfy units.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

They’re getting the remaining 11 once TfW’s new stock enters service.

Ah right ok. Thank you for that.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Apr 2022 ==

Northern have nothing to do with this at all. There 170s are staying with Northern as far as I'm aware.

 

[Mugby]

Northern only got their 170s a couple of years ago, they replaced 158s on the Sheffield-Doncaster-Hull services so I'd say there's absolutely no question of them reverting back to 158s.

 

[ChrisC]

Northern only got their 170s a couple of years ago, they replaced 158s on the Sheffield-Doncaster-Hull services so I'd say there's absolutely no question of them reverting back to 158s.

The Northern 170’s have had a very good refurbishment and feel like new trains. They are not going to let them go. It’s about time EMR began a similar standard of refurbishment.

 

[43102EMR]

The Northern 170’s have had a very good refurbishment and feel like new trains. They are not going to let them go. It’s about time EMR began a similar standard of refurbishment.

Agreed - the internal state of EMR’s trains is shocking; makes the trains the 170s are replacing an improvement over them.

I would argue though Northern’s 170s need redeployment from the Harrogate Line - I was told the amount of fuel they burn on there is pretty excessive.

 

[morgainelive]

Personally it feels the Liverpool to Norwich route just isn't cared for there are too. Many 2 car 156s on that route due to. Not enough 158s making it worse even without 4 cars. its time they just handed it to Northern or tp express who would probably have enough stock to shift around to. Support 4 or 6 car trains

 

[ScotGG]

Funny this thread popped up for me as was wondering what the plan now is for replacing 158s on Norwich-Liverpool.

Is it due to go from 2 car Norwich-Nott to 3 car 170, then 6 car 170s between Nottingham and Liverpool?