EMR Class 170 updates

[43102EMR]

Funny this thread popped up for me as was wondering what the plan now is for replacing 158s on Norwich-Liverpool.

Is it due to go from 2 car Norwich-Nott to 3 car 170, then 6 car 170s between Nottingham and Liverpool?

Apparently to stay as 158s

 

[Clansman]

Northern have a small batch of 170's wouldn't they be better off letting these go in exchange for additional 158's to allow so standardisation of m'tc and unit knowledge?

Here's an idea - why don't EMR give Northern their 170s in exchange for more of their 158s to blanket cover their smaller regional DMU fleet?

Seriously though, why would Northern want to decrease their capacity? That's not how standardisation works I'm afraid.

 

[QSK19]

The Northern 170’s have had a very good refurbishment and feel like new trains. They are not going to let them go. It’s about time EMR began a similar standard of refurbishment.

I always maintain that the DfT treat EMR with utter contempt; so I wouldn’t be surprised if EMR’s 170s aren’t refurbished at all (same with the 360s) - DfT’s excuse that there’s no money (although a magic money tree seems to have appeared for more brand new TPE stock).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Apr 2022 ==

Shortage of stock? Take the 175s for use on Nottingham to Liverpool. Lovely cumfy units.

I think the point about microfleets comes into play… better to keep the fleet standardised with 158s/170s.

Yes, 27 175s is a fairly decent number; but the consequence is that taking them on increases the stock types within the TOC.

 

[ScotGG]

Apparently to stay as 158s

Thanks.

In my recent experience that's not really good enough if no increase in carriages.

Standing room only in parts from Norwich to Nottingham then rammed to Manchester (not possible to board) even with 2 up to Sheffield then 4 beyond.

The stretch from Ely to Peterborough was very busy a few times. Two isn't enough it appears. Four car 158 then six to Manchester?

 

[ChrisC]

I always maintain that the DfT treat EMR with utter contempt; so I wouldn’t be surprised if EMR’s 170s aren’t refurbished at all (same with the 360s) - DfT’s excuse that there’s no money (although a magic money tree seems to have appeared for more brand new TPE stock).

I think I tend to agree with you there. When Central Trains was broken up, all of the newest trains, 170’s just a few years old went to the West Midlands and XC. EMT received lots of 158’s and 153’s from all over the country, some of which were in an appalling state of repair. I have to say that Stagecoach did a fantastic job of refurbishing them and maintaining them along with the 153’s and 156’s. They also inherited a few 3 car 158’s from TPE but the middle carriages, much needed for Liverpool to Norwich, were soon removed and went to Northern.

Just 3 years later in 2010 the West Midlands then got the new 172 trains. Now that they are due to get yet even more new trains the East Midlands can have the now 20 year old, 170’s back, but not before many of them have had the middle carriages removed to go to XC. I agree that XC did need more capacity but why couldn’t the West Midlands have the 170”s refurbished and the East Midlands have some new trains especially for the busy Liverpool to Norwich route. People here have explained the reasons before but to the passengers on EMR is does seem somewhat unfair, especially when the old 170’s they are getting back look on the surface to be in a worse state of repair than the 156”s and 158”s they are replacing.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Thanks.

In my recent experience that's not really good enough if no increase in carriages.

Standing room only in parts from Norwich to Nottingham then rammed to Manchester (not possible to board) even with 2 up to Sheffield then 4 beyond.

The stretch from Ely to Peterborough was very busy a few times. Two isn't enough it appears. Four car 158 then six to Manchester?

There is a seperate thread somewhere dedicated to weird and wonderful theories on the Liverpool - Norwich route.
I guess the age old question of "where would the units come from" would be the stock response to your idea.

 

[LowLevel]

I think I tend to agree with you there. When Central Trains was broken up, all of the newest trains, 170’s just a few years old went to the West Midlands and XC. EMT received lots of 158’s and 153’s from all over the country, some of which were in an appalling state of repair. I have to say that Stagecoach did a fantastic job of refurbishing them and maintaining them along with the 153’s and 156’s. They also inherited a few 3 car 158’s from TPE but the middle carriages, much needed for Liverpool to Norwich, were soon removed and went to Northern.

Just 3 years later in 2010 the West Midlands then got the new 172 trains. Now that they are due to get yet even more new trains the East Midlands can have the now 20 year old, 170’s back, but not before many of them have had the middle carriages removed to go to XC. I agree that XC did need more capacity but why couldn’t the West Midlands have the 170”s refurbished and the East Midlands have some new trains especially for the busy Liverpool to Norwich route. People here have explained the reasons before but to the passengers on EMR is does seem somewhat unfair, especially when the old 170’s they are getting back look on the surface to be in a worse state of repair than the 156”s and 158”s they are replacing.

Stagecoach didn't want any 170s so the ones that were earmarked went elsewhere.

To be honest the 170s have a perfectly good interior that with a thoroughly overhaul and addition of things like plug sockets, new information screens and so on would be of an excellent standard. The 170/4s from ScotRail may need more work than the rest but the Central Trains interior as specified was superb for a regional operator. The main loss would be a reduction in planned seats as at 122 the CT interior is far from capacious.

New seats would be nice but I wouldn't say essential.

The 360s are a different matter I think.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

I think I tend to agree with you there. When Central Trains was broken up, all of the newest trains, 170’s just a few years old went to the West Midlands and XC. EMT received lots of 158’s and 153’s from all over the country, some of which were in an appalling state of repair. I have to say that Stagecoach did a fantastic job of refurbishing them and maintaining them along with the 153’s and 156’s. They also inherited a few 3 car 158’s from TPE but the middle carriages, much needed for Liverpool to Norwich, were soon removed and went to Northern.

Just 3 years later in 2010 the West Midlands then got the new 172 trains. Now that they are due to get yet even more new trains the East Midlands can have the now 20 year old, 170’s back, but not before many of them have had the middle carriages removed to go to XC. I agree that XC did need more capacity but why couldn’t the West Midlands have the 170”s refurbished and the East Midlands have some new trains especially for the busy Liverpool to Norwich route. People here have explained the reasons before but to the passengers on EMR is does seem somewhat unfair, especially when the old 170’s they are getting back look on the surface to be in a worse state of repair than the 156”s and 158”s they are replacing.

West Midlands Railway just haven't updated the 170s and left them how they are really. They've done the 323s and 350s.

 

[liamf656]

West Midlands Railway just haven't updated the 170s and left them how they are really. They've done the 323s and 350s.

That’s because there isn’t any point in refurbishing trains that would be replaced so soon, they weren’t in bad shape when they left the West Midlands. I’m surprised they did the 323s but I’m not sure if they were desperately in need of a refurb or not

 

[Jacob Porrett]

That’s because there isn’t any point in refurbishing trains that would be replaced so soon, they weren’t in bad shape when they left the West Midlands. I’m surprised they did the 323s but I’m not sure if they were desperately in need of a refurb or not

That's true yes. The 323s certainly look better now then they did now they have been refurbished. The team at Soho do an excellent job at looking after and maintaining all the 323s.

 

[Chiltern006]

That’s because there isn’t any point in refurbishing trains that would be replaced so soon, they weren’t in bad shape when they left the West Midlands. I’m surprised they did the 323s but I’m not sure if they were desperately in need of a refurb or not

323s had to be done as part of PRM

 

[RailWonderer]

The ex GA and Northern 170s are in the best shape having been refurbed a few years ago. Not too familiar with the Scotrail ones but they seem middle of the road, XC ones weren't looking too good as of a few months ago but the ex LM/CT ones are the worst. Stains and gum on the seats and carpets and worn out upholstery. More doors out of order on ex LM and XC ones as well.

 

[fgwrich]

The ex GA and Northern 170s are in the best shape having been refurbed a few years ago. Not too familiar with the Scotrail ones but they seem middle of the road, XC ones weren't looking too good as of a few months ago but the ex LM/CT ones are the worst. Stains and gum on the seats and carpets and worn out upholstery. More doors out of order on ex LM and XC ones as well.

The ex ScotRail 4 aren't in the best of shape having missed the main Saltire refurbishment the rest of the permanent fleet were treated to a number of years ago - they were originally due to head down to Southern with their brothers in 2016, but Southern had issues with their refurbishment and conversion into 171s, and decided after a period of unreliability to relinquish the lease on them back to ScotRail (they were sublet from TSGN to ScotRail until Southern wanted them). As a result, they largely retain their as built interior (2002?) with newer ScotRail installed carpets. Either way they are in a pretty ragtag state and in dire need of a refurbishment.

 

[Clansman]

As a result, they largely retain their as built interior (2002?)

1998.

 

[fgwrich]

1998.

Yikes, as old as that! No wonder they're so careworn!

 

[youngiecj]

First pair of 170s (170530/534) did several trips to Skegness yesterday 09/04/22. First pair in Service on the branch for a few years.

 

[43102EMR]

The ex ScotRail 4 aren't in the best of shape having missed the main Saltire refurbishment the rest of the permanent fleet were treated to a number of years ago - they were originally due to head down to Southern with their brothers in 2016, but Southern had issues with their refurbishment and conversion into 171s, and decided after a period of unreliability to relinquish the lease on them back to ScotRail (they were sublet from TSGN to ScotRail until Southern wanted them). As a result, they largely retain their as built interior (2002?) with newer ScotRail installed carpets. Either way they are in a pretty ragtag state and in dire need of a refurbishment.

Wasn’t it 5 that moved over from Scotrail?

But yes, they are in an absolute dire state. I just wish EMR prioritised the refurbishment of them over the repaints like SWR with their Desiros…

 

[LowLevel]

According to a well informed poster on WNXX, rumours abound that a 170 will be leaving Cross Country in May on a permanent basis to supplement the EMR fleet. No gen on what is what.

Edit update - apparently not permanent, just to aid summer capacity.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

According to a well informed poster on WNXX, rumours abound that a 170 will be leaving Cross Country in May on a permanent basis to supplement the EMR fleet. No gen on what is what.

Interesting

 

[DDB]

According to a well informed poster on WNXX, rumours abound that a 170 will be leaving Cross Country in May on a permanent basis to supplement the EMR fleet. No gen on what is what.

I wonder how many different routes EMR have promised that they are just one extra unit away from restoring thier service. They have definitely said that to the Nottingham Matlock stakeholder groups.

I suspect a fight coming!

 

[STINT47]

I wonder how many different routes EMR have promised that they are just one extra unit away from restoring thier service. They have definitely said that to the Nottingham Matlock stakeholder groups.

I suspect a fight coming!

I was under the impression that it was a shortage of staff caused by absences and delayed training due to covid that caused them to introduce the reduced timetable.

It appears to have now become due to a shortage of trains.

Something doesn't add up. My BS radar is going off.

 

[Energy]

Something doesn't add up. My BS radar is going off.

Its not like Abellio to make up excuses, its not like they blamed Covid for the 196s delayed entry despite the original entry date being pre covid.

 

[DDB]

I was under the impression that it was a shortage of staff caused by absences and delayed training due to covid that caused them to introduce the reduced timetable.

It appears to have now become due to a shortage of trains.

Something doesn't add up. My BS radar is going off.

I am only saying what they are saying. I'm not saying I believe them!

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Why would EMR need XC 170s when they are getting the WMR 170s anyway and have ex SR 170 anyways? Seems daft.

 

[Energy]

Why would EMR need XC 170s when they are getting the WMR 170s anyway and have ex SR 170 anyways? Seems daft.

Because WMR and SR 170s aren't enough.

 

[Clansman]

XC have nothing to replace them with surely? The idea that a TOC willingly sacrifices the needs of their own commuters for anothee TOC to benefit is baffling.

 

[QSK19]

Why would EMR need XC 170s when they are getting the WMR 170s anyway and have ex SR 170 anyways? Seems daft.

Probably because the whole 196 saga is going to go on and on and on - wouldn’t be surprised if the 810s are all in service before a single 170/5 moves. TfW’s 170/2s don’t seem to be leaving any time soon either; so that, combined with EMR’s stock shortage and hence inability to deliver a full service, has probably led to this XC 170 idea being floated.

 

[43096]

XC have nothing to replace them with surely? The idea that a TOC willingly sacrifices the needs of their own commuters for anothee TOC to benefit is baffling.

It's a DfT direction. The TOCs do not have a choice under the current contracts - if DfT say "send x trains to y" then they have to do it.

 

[QSK19]

It's a DfT direction. The TOCs do not have a choice under the current contracts - if DfT say "send x trains to y" then they have to do it.

Gosh, the DfT is doing EMR a favour for once haha

 

[Wolfie]

Agreed - the internal state of EMR’s trains is shocking; makes the trains the 170s are replacing an improvement over them.

I would argue though Northern’s 170s need redeployment from the Harrogate Line - I was told the amount of fuel they burn on there is pretty excessive.

I'm a little surprised by that having used 170s on WMR before they moved over. They weren't new but were neat and tidy.