Emergency engineering work at Lewisham

[RichmondCommu]

Because they are easier to maintain and replace.

Sherlock strikes again.

 

[class303]

Of course there are :roll: For instance you may have heard of TATA (AFA Corus AFA British Steel) at Scunthorpe. They still make a bit of rail........

Have you thought that it might be a specialist piece of equipment that has to be made "bespoke" and the only available capacity was in Germany?

not sure there's any need for such an attitude for someone asking a simple question. That's the purpose of this forum I thought? look I can roll my eyes at you too. :roll:

 

[rebmcr]

Someone mentioned a foundry making a bespoke part. Does this mean the frogs are castings? Or forged?
Historically, have they always been made thus? I always imagined they were fabricated from rail, mitred together and probably welded along the join, though the fasteners would hold it pretty still anyway.
I've noticed the ones for the scissors outside Fenchurch St look like castings. Again, in my imagination, I pondered whether that allowed the drop for the wheel to be reduced by building up the material in the gap between the rails in the frog, so the wheel could effectively run on the tip of its flange. If that's a good idea.

The not-in-regular-use trailing crossover on Aytoun Street for the Metrolink in Manchester appears to be designed for flange running when using the crossover, to allow for regular through running to be effectively plain track.

 

[DarloRich]

You would also think that NR Procurement would have potential suppliers lined up for emergency manufacture of critical items of this nature that are not kept in stock, so they can turn to them at a moment's notice. Standard practice in sophisticated engineering. And by all accounts above it was a known problem piece for days before it failed, so they could have already been on the job.

What happened to the facility at Sandiacre near Nottingham, which I seem to recall could do this stuff effortlessly?

That is fine if you are prepared to pay a company to keep open capacity in their facility to manufacture, at short notice, one off pieces. Does that offer you, as a customer good value for money? This is not a piece you can just knock together in a few days, nor can you keep a huge number of one off bespoke components to hand in the hope that they are used. To keep a duplicate of every non standard item on the network “just in case” would be a monumental task.

There is still a facility at Sandiacre. It might be working at capacity and is unable to take on short notice work without impacting on other parts already under construction or build which in turn delays other already booked jobs in turn delaying more passengers

The location of the supplier isn’t really the issue – getting the parts as soon as possible is

Sherlock strikes again.

Cheers - I need a new deer stalker. Although replacement of non standard parts to more standard ones removes issues of this type

not sure there's any need for such an attitude for someone asking a simple question. That's the purpose of this forum I thought? look I can roll my eyes at you too. :roll:

Cheers - it was still a silly why oh why question. The whole point of enhancing the massive rail facility at Scunthorpe was to supply rail to the UK.

 

[MikeWh]

And in other news ...

Due to a broken down train, services between Victoria and Dartford which have already been diverted via Sidcup are now being diverted by ... yep, Bexleyheath!

 

[ComUtoR]

And in other news ...

Due to a broken down train, services between Victoria and Dartford which have already been diverted via Sidcup are now being diverted by ... yep, Bexleyheath!

Not going to Vic then :/

 

[21C101]

That is fine if you are prepared to pay a company to keep open capacity in their facility to manufacture, at short notice, one off pieces. Does that offer you, as a customer good value for money? This is not a piece you can just knock together in a few days, nor can you keep a huge number of one off bespoke components to hand in the hope that they are used. To keep a duplicate of every non standard item on the network “just in case” would be a monumental task.

Why not? in most other industries spare parts and disaster recovery parts are kept as a matter of routine, for equipment at critical locations, and they don't get much more critical than that location?


I would imagine the train delay costs will come to millions, for the sake of a spare part.


In fact, given the criticality "pay[ing] a company to keep open capacity in their facility to manufacture, at short notice, one off pieces" sounds quite good value for money - better still, have an in house facility to do it like BR did.

Sorry, but shutting a cardinal line for almost as long as the Dawlish Wall was shut for, for the sake of a spare part on a critical piece of infrastructure, is quite unbelievable and penetrative questions need to be asked at the highest level by the rail regulator and ministers.

Imagine if one of BTs main telephone exchanges was down for a month because they lacked a spare part leaving half a city with no phones, or if a failed major substation was down for a month for the lack of a spare part leaving half a city without electricity.

 

[Bald Rick]

Imagine if one of BTs main telephone exchanges was down for a month because they lacked a spare part leaving half a city with no phones, or if a failed major substation was down for a month for the lack of a spare part leaving half a city without electricity.

But no one is without a train service. Plenty of substations - even power stations - do go off line unplanned, for months. The electricity goes another way. Same with the trains in this case.

Anyway, the delay payments for this will not be millions - not even close. Just buying the 'spare parts' for this junction alone, to leave on the ground, would cost roughly half a million. Do that for every non standard junction in, say, Kent, and you can multiply that by at least 50. That's one hell of an insurance policy to buy.

 

[Class 170101]

The schedule 4 payments will be through the roof I reckon. Particularly as compensation may be payable to LUL too for ticket acceptance betwen Blackfriars and Cannopn Street and between Elephant and Castle and London Bridge.

 

[21C101]

But no one is without a train service. Plenty of substations - even power stations - do go off line unplanned, for months. The electricity goes another way. Same with the trains in this case.

Anyway, the delay payments for this will not be millions - not even close. Just buying the 'spare parts' for this junction alone, to leave on the ground, would cost roughly half a million. Do that for every non standard junction in, say, Kent, and you can multiply that by at least 50. That's one hell of an insurance policy to buy.

Depends on the substation. Last time that happened here they had to install generators outside all the local distribution substations (after a day of half the town having no power) and most of the town was powered by generators for a few days until it was fixed. Power stations, as you imply, have redundancy thanks to the National Grid.

You wouldn't neccesarily do that for every non standard junction in Kent, just the critical ones - like the Lewisham double scissors for example.

However, if that's the cost, it looks like a candidate for getting the skills in house, so that things can be prioritised to move very quickly and get the parts in a few days.

50 years ago the railways were chock full of all sorts of unique non standard pointwork and diamond crossovers (eg the famous Newcastle station throat) and things were not shut for a month when the track failed. Even after bomb attacks in world war 2, the southern was back up and running within 48 hours or so, with track equipment provided from in house workshops.

 

[theageofthetra]

TFL acceptance was between Vic-Cannon St the last time I looked.

 

[Bald Rick]

The schedule 4 payments will be through the roof I reckon.

That depends how big the house is.

 

[21C101]

TFL acceptance was between Vic-Cannon St the last time I looked.

Makes sense. The diverted trains are not calling at Elephant, they are running "fast" (something of an oxymoron) to/from Rochester via the Catford loop.

From Blackfriars its almost as quick walking as getting the tube to Cannon St.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That depends how big the house is.

Dont come much bigger than Southern House in Croydon....

 

[user15681]

Diversions of Kent Coast peak services to Blackfriars will only last until tomorrow. Back to normal for them from Monday, with some of the paths for Metros being lost instead.

 

[DelayRepay]

Surely ordering non-standard parts to keep in stock (for critical parts on heavily used junctions/lines) would work out cheaper than waiting til something breaks before ordering a replacement. My logic is, the company working to a tight deadline are probably charging a premium, whereas if there was no deadline this would could have been put out to tender and done more cheaply. At some point the equipment will need replacing, it won't last for ever, so keeping parts in stock would not be a waste of money.

The cost, of course, would be storing all these parts. That's likely to be quite expensive I suppose.

 

[Class 170101]

Looked like one at Elephant and Castle for today and tomorrow (perhaps the stop was later withdrawn).

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O34954/2014/10/02/advanced

 

[Bald Rick]

50 years ago the railways were chock full of all sorts of unique non standard pointwork and diamond crossovers (eg the famous Newcastle station throat) and things were not shut for a month when the track failed. Even after bomb attacks in world war 2, the southern was back up and running within 48 hours or so, with track equipment provided from in house workshops.

Well yes, but then standards then weren't quite like they are today, and almost all crossings are now cast rather than fabricated from offcuts as it was in the good ol' days.

Also it is precisely because there is much less non-standard kit around (and most of what there is seems to be in Kent!) that the economics of specialist S&C manufacturers has changed - particularly in the last decade or so.

Having an in house manufacturer is a red herring. It comes down to prioritising the workload at the factory. NR is, after all, by far the largest customer. But these things do take time to make the pattern, cast and finish.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The cost, of course, would be storing all these parts. That's likely to be quite expensive I suppose.

No, the cost is having over tens of millions of pounds worth of stock lying around doing nothing. Or more accurately, the cost of borrowing the cash to facilitate that.

In my (ahem) umpteen years of involvement on the front line, I can only remember a handful of occasions on my 'patch' of a critical switch / crossing being out of service for more than a week. Yet every single week, maintenance are changing scores of these around the country. 99.9% of the time it is done in time. Occasionally, one gets through, and even more occasionally, it is a critical one.

I'm not trying to defend the position - just explaining.

 

[user15681]

Looked like one at Elephant and Castle for today and tomorrow (perhaps the stop was later withdrawn).

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O34954/2014/10/02/advanced

Just a stop added in to allow waiting for a path, not an advertised passenger call. One on 1G95 too at Bromley South.

Should add there were crew pickups needed too.

 

[DelayRepay]

I'm not trying to defend the position - just explaining.

I appreciate that, thank you. Equally I wasn't trying to be awkward.

Anyway - from what I've seen it looks like Southeastern have coped pretty well.

 

[Paul Kelly]

There was an interesting letter in RAIL magazine last year that I thought of when I heard about this: http://www.railmagazine.com/forum/forum_home.asp?admin=No&pid=3&act=postview&fid=1&post=371

The closure of one route through Buckland Junction for four weeks because of a defective crossing (RAIL 688) is a terrible indictment on Network Rail and its National Delivery Service (NDS).

For 15 years following privatisation, Eastleigh S&C Ltd provided a national emergency supply service for switches and crossings (S&C). It was able to supply almost any unit within a few days, and often within 12 hours of receiving a phone call - and judging from the photograph the crossing could have been easily supplied the same day and installed instead of the plain rail.
Eastleigh was able to provide this service because it deliberately held a wide range of part-manufactured items and sub-components that it could finish quickly to suit site-specific conditions.

Moreover, it did not take on significant run-of-the-mill work, so as to be ready to respond instantly - and for years it was never without adequate work!

Inevitably there had to be a premium price for such emergency supplies. But when viewed overall, including disruption costs, the service was an absolute bargain.

Latterly NDS sought to reduce the number of manufacturers supplying S&C to NR, and to obtain emergency items at the similar prices to normal lead time products.

It phased out using Eastleigh S&C, and the company closed down a year ago. Even then, NDS refused the offer of the £1 million worth of stock at half-price, and it all went for scrap (or to preserved railways that recognised a bargain!).

One justification was the creation of an S&C recycling operation at its March depot, but that facility does not have any of the equipment or rational sets of kit necessary for providing a crossing for Buckland.

Unfortunately Buckland Junction is not an isolated case. There are emergency speed restrictions all over the country where emergency S&C replacement units are awaited, and recently four platforms at Waterloo were closed for several days - but too high profile to wait a month!

And yes, I have a vested interest. I was one of three redundant BR staff who knew of the need for emergency S&C, and so took the huge risk to set up Eastleigh S&C Ltd in 1996. It is very sad to see that Network Rail is clearly unable to match the service we provided.

Jim Wheeler, Surbiton

Although I'm not complaining; the direct Hither Green to Victoria trains are very handy for me!

 

[user15681]

I remember Buckland junction too. Fortunately less disruption with that one.

 

[21C101]

I was going to post further comment on this but Indigo2's quoted letter says it all.

Just left shaking head in disbelief. What a way to run a railway.

 

[Taunton]

I really am disappointed at all the apologists who seem to think this is "just something to accept". It shouldn't be, it is a ridiculous way to run a purchasing operation at such a large organisation as Network Rail.

However much is it going to cost them in compensation payments for a month of no service, and is this cost going to be stuck on the procurement side who have over-economised.

It is actually a straightforward piece of machining/casting/forging for an S&C plant. It's a custom piece but then arrangements for producing custom pieces should all be in place. They fail. They are damaged in derailments. Whatever.

 

[user15681]

An operational rarity this morning at Blackfriars... 11 375s in the area at the same time. 3 units in platform 4, 3 in platform 3, 3 just outside the station waiting for a path to Grove Park sidings and 2 outside waiting for a platform. 10% of the fleet at a station they're not even timetabled to go to yet!

Also, has a Blackfriars to Hastings service ever run? Did the past few days, once each morning. Can't remember one ever myself!

 

[21C101]

deleted

 

[Bald Rick]

The standard for track maintenance is owned by NR, not RSSB. NR/L2/TRK/001 to be precise.

 

[21C101]

The standard for track maintenance is owned by NR, not RSSB. NR/L2/TRK/001 to be precise.

My bad. I will go back to sleep.

 

[user15681]

All should be back to normal Monday 27th October.

 

[ScotGG]

The Bexleyheath line has been packed with the service changes and people unable to get on. A pre-cursor of issues on the Dartford lines when London Bridge rebuilding begins in January?

Of course the work is essential. However, not securing more trains for 12 car running up to 2018 on metro lines could well be a big oversight.

 

[IanKR]

All should be back to normal Monday 27th October.

Good news indeed. National Rail are reporting that the work will be done overnight this Friday/Saturday:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/service_disruptions/83516.aspx