Electrification & Rolling Stock Cascade Impact Review

[Geeves]

Even if they did send 6 at by May you have nowhere for them to run, so I guess with one on the way at least the fitters at Allerton can get familar with their new toys!

 

[Beveridges]

Even if they did send 6 at by May you have nowhere for them to run

South Manchester routes where there are not enough 323's available. 6 would be overkill though

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

You are out of date Sir, Bollo Lane and Kew East Jn (with its semaphores) were abolished a couple of years ago. It's all colour light controlled from Acton Wells.

Ta. I thought I had seen it somewhere...

 

[Class377/5]

Thought 6 had to go in may 2014?

The problem is most people took the wording assumption to be fact. Its not. The FCC direct award sees 3x 319 leave the franchise but another 3x 319 stay to cover for the C4 work originally proposed to be done after the cascade away from Thameslink.

The 387 could still displace enough 319s away. Especially as they aren't being built with first class.

 

[WatcherZero]

On the plus side at least it wasnt the leasing cost of the 170's that forced TPE to give them up but rather the ROSCO prefered the certainty of longer Chiltern franchise over the short TPE direct award period. Comes back to the Dft as the culprit though, their franchising strategy didnt give enough certainty and confidence to the ROSCO's.

 

[Manchester77]

Is it true that chiltern could sub-lease a few of the 9 170/3s back to TPE until they're either needed by chiltern or no longer needed by TPE?

 

[Class377/5]

Is it true that chiltern could sub-lease a few of the 9 170/3s back to TPE until they're either needed by chiltern or no longer needed by TPE?

That is what is being proposed according to the WNXX thread. Chiltern is simply taking the long term deal to secure it the units it requires long term with them initially loaned out today just like they are to TPE.

 

[Class 170101]

Even if they did send 6 at by May you have nowhere for them to run, so I guess with one on the way at least the fitters at Allerton can get familar with their new toys!

By the same token it allows Drivers and Guards to become familar with them as well between May and December.

Use them for testing, route clearance, crew familiarisation etc between Manchester and the NW via Golborne or up to Carnforth like the 350/2 was when TPE crews learnt them. These runs took place between Crewe and Carnforth.

 

[Manchester77]

That is what is being proposed according to the WNXX thread. Chiltern is simply taking the long term deal to secure it the units it requires long term with them initially loaned out today just like they are to TPE.

Thanks at least it means that the situation can't be as bad as it's not being portrayed in the media.

 

[WatcherZero]

That is what is being proposed according to the WNXX thread. Chiltern is simply taking the long term deal to secure it the units it requires long term with them initially loaned out today just like they are to TPE.

Problem arising is it wants them back before electrification is completed.

 

[fgwrich]

Thanks at least it means that the situation can't be as bad as it's not being portrayed in the media.

Which isn't helped by people like BBC North West's transport correspondent asking twice in the space of a short interview ''Should Passengers Be Worried''... :roll:


It's still not an ideal situation however. I wonder what the DfT is still referring too though as suitable trains will be sourced in time to replace the TPE units. Unless they are looking towards LM and either their 170 or 350 Fleets? (6 x 3 Car 170s = 18 Cars, the same as the 9 X 2 car 170s going to Chiltern, or using more 350s to strengthen the TPE electric services to free anymore 185s?).

 

[northwichcat]

Even if they did send 6 at by May you have nowhere for them to run, so I guess with one on the way at least the fitters at Allerton can get familar with their new toys!

South Manchester routes where there are not enough 323's available. 6 would be overkill though

Also when will the Earlestown-Liverpool wires be ready? If they are ready to use before the December timetable change then if Northern have EMUs available and crews that sign them then they can make use of the wires as soon as they're ready.

 

[Class377/5]

Problem arising is it wants them back before electrification is completed.

Yes and in phases. It doesn't need all the units until spring 2016. It remains to be seen just what is in the contract.

Also when will the Earlestown-Liverpool wires be ready? If they are ready to use before the December timetable change then if Northern have EMUs available and crews that sign them then they can make use of the wires as soon as they're ready.

Should be ready about two months before like phase 1 was supposed to be so testing can be done.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Also when will the Earlestown-Liverpool wires be ready? If they are ready to use before the December timetable change then if Northern have EMUs available and crews that sign them then they can make use of the wires as soon as they're ready.

I can't see it being any earlier than December.
The bit they are leaving till last is the new layout at Roby-Huyton which affects all routes.
NR has to complete that with the associated resignalling first.
Not easy.

 

[northwichcat]

Bob Crow's spoken out (again):

Rail Union RMT slammed as "outrageous and scandalous" news that desperately-needed trains will be moved from the North to the South of England in a manoeuvre that exposes the critical shortage of rail rolling stock due to years of underinvestment, as well as delivering a kick in the teeth to the North.

It has emerged that nine trains currently used by Trans Pennine Express will be moved to Chiltern Railways.

The trains, currently used between Manchester and Hull, will move from April 2015 in a lease agreement despite the fact that the stock is desperately needed on the northern routes.

RMT General Secretary Bob Crow said: " This move is nothing short of a scandal and ignores the fact that First Trans Pennine Express is already the most overcrowded train service in the UK. As a result of this move, which is supported by the Government and the Transport Department, the route will now lose 13% of its train units which our members have made clear will lead to absolute chaos and dangerous overcrowding.

"Once again the failure to invest in new rolling stock and capacity, combined with the fragmentation and profiteering of privatisation, leaves a trail of wreckage in its wake. Not only that, but the North loses again and rail passengers and staff have nothing to look forward to other than continuing overcrowding and chaos. The only solution is public ownership and an end to the expensive nonsense of privatisation.”

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/new...rail-rolling-stock-being-shipped-to-the-south

 

[Class172]

It's still not an ideal situation however. I wonder what the DfT is still referring too though as suitable trains will be sourced in time to replace the TPE units. Unless they are looking towards LM and either their 170 or 350 Fleets? (6 x 3 Car 170s = 18 Cars, the same as the 9 X 2 car 170s going to Chiltern, or using more 350s to strengthen the TPE electric services to free anymore 185s?).

And what would you replace the loss of LMs 3 car 170s with? Passengers on Hereford/Shrewsbury services certainly would not be happy with shorter trains; 172s would not be suitable for constant use on the lines.

 

[WatcherZero]

Hammond today said bidders of the 2016 Northern franchise to be tendered this December would be asked to propose solutions for the removal of Pacers from the area. Now that may well in practise mean it may be 2018 or 19 before they would be removed (though naturally a TOC would want to get the most from the investment by having it as early in the franchise as possible). It also doesnt stop them being used elsewhere, however with Northern as a customer gone it would become unlikely that they would be made compliant for 2020 access.

Much has been said about the Pacer trains that were introduced in the mid-1980s and have rightly received their fair share of attention. With the introduction of new rolling stock into the region, higher quality rolling stock will be released for use across the network. In the forthcoming franchise competitions for Northern and TransPennine Express, the Department does not intend to specify the type of trains to be used. However, hon. Members will have seen the Official Journal of the European Union notice that we set out for the East Coast franchise and we expect to ask bidders for the Northern franchise to put forward proposals for the removal of Pacers from the area. Furthermore, as hon. Members will have noticed, the new franchise competition gives as much weight to quality as to price aspects of bids, so we expect bidders to take that opportunity to reflect that in their bids and operating plans.

 

[northwichcat]

Hammond today said bidders of the 2016 Northern franchise to be tendered this December would be asked to propose solutions for the removal of Pacers from the area. Now that may well in practise mean it may be 2018 or 19 before they would be removed (though naturally a TOC would want to get the most from the investment by having it as early in the franchise as possible). It also doesnt stop them being used elsewhere, however with Northern as a customer gone it would become unlikely that they would be made compliant for 2020 access.

It's been suggested that Porterbrook see the Wales and Borders as the mostly likely franchise to be able to commit to using 143s/144s for 10 years following a compliant refurbishment.

Relating to the original post we know for certain now that:
1. All the Pacers will remain in service with the Northern franchise until at least February 2016. The original post suggested withdrawal will start in 2014, which I think everyone in the North knew wouldn't happen.
2. Northern will not get enough EMUs in time to operate all the Chat Moss services using electric traction from this December.
3. TPE will need replacement for the 170/3s between next year and December 18 following Chiltern signing a lease for them.

 

[47802]

Hammond today said bidders of the 2016 Northern franchise to be tendered this December would be asked to propose solutions for the removal of Pacers from the area. Now that may well in practise mean it may be 2018 or 19 before they would be removed (though naturally a TOC would want to get the most from the investment by having it as early in the franchise as possible). It also doesnt stop them being used elsewhere, however with Northern as a customer gone it would become unlikely that they would be made compliant for 2020 access.

That's strikes me as being difficult as there seem to be still lots of uncertainties as to rolling stock freed up by electrification and where it will go, after all nobody including Daft is would seem expected the TPX 170's to go to Chiltern. We still don't know but maybe Daft do as to what's happening with the HST's to the south west, will the 222's go there, will it be a fleet of IEP's requiring 158's for some Plymouth Penzance services, a lot of variations which would seem to require some co-ordination, yet Daft are now saying they should leave to the TOC's.

 

[Manchester77]

That's strikes me as being difficult as there seem to be still lots of uncertainties as to rolling stock freed up by electrification and where it will go, after all nobody including Daft is would seem expected the TPX 170's to go to Chiltern. We still don't know but maybe Daft do as to what's happening with the HST's to the south west, will the 222's go there, will it be a fleet of IEP's requiring 158's for some Plymouth Penzance services, a lot of variations which would seem to require some co-ordination, yet Daft are now saying they should leave to the TOC's.

The DfT seem to have had some idea of what's going on since they gave permission for Chiltern to take the TPE 170s in November time last year, or at least that's what's been reported. I don't think any announcement has been made regarding the future of a South Western InterCity stock however it was mentioned on wnxx that a fleet of bi-mode IEPs which had extra luggage space (for the surfboards and luggage you get in the summer) maybe ordered for HST replacement in the South West. The DfT need to say if they want to be involved or not now, if they do they need to produce a long term rolling stock strategy it they don't then they need to say so and stop telling TOCs to place orders on their behalf (as in the case of Southern and the 377/6&/7&387s) and butt out.

 

[northwichcat]

The DfT seem to have had some idea of what's going on since they gave permission for Chiltern to take the TPE 170s in November time last year, or at least that's what's been reported.

It was a commercial arrangement that DfT were made aware of and chose not to block opposed to they gave permission for Chiltern to take them. According to Stephen Hammond talks are ongoing to allow TPE to retain some of the 170/3s until the start of the next franchise.

 

[Manchester77]

It was a commercial arrangement that DfT were made aware of and chose not to block opposed to they gave permission for Chiltern to take them. According to Stephen Hammond talks are ongoing to allow TPE to retain some of the 170/3s until the start of the next franchise.

It still seems like a foolish decision by the DfT when at the time there was no knowing if Northern would have any stock to cascade over to TPE (it now seems that 158s will go over to TPE with the units cascaded by the 12 319s covering them as well as other buts and pieces) and that TPE wouldn't be able to step up to 5tph without the 170s. Yes I saw that since chiltern won't need all of them until their Oxford link opens.

 

[Class 170101]

It's been suggested that Porterbrook see the Wales and Borders as the mostly likely franchise to be able to commit to using 143s/144s for 10 years following a compliant refurbishment.

I just cannot see what routes they would serve in any great quantity once the 313s and 315s arrive. I would have thought Northern was still a better bet from Porterbrook's point of view.

 

[northwichcat]

I just cannot see what routes they would serve in any great quantity once the 313s and 315s arrive. I would have thought Northern was still a better bet from Porterbrook's point of view.

Well the 2 car sets would have around 80 seats under Porterbrook plans so would need to operate in 4-8 car formation for the majority of Northern routes all year round, which would then be pointless as it would be more expensive to operate than using 155s or 156s to provide the same number of seats.

I'd personally think ATW and FGW are the two best options for 80 seater Pacers, as they seem to be 2 operators who get much lower demand in the winter than the summer.

 

[IanXC]

The other consideration for refurbished pacers is routes and operators who currently use single 153s. I can quite easily see refurb pacers on things like the Barton branch.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One possibility (perhaps, if it can be costed!) could be to reform (some of) the 2-car pacers into 4-car units by removing one cab from each and fitting a gangway...

 

[The Ham]

One possibility (perhaps, if it can be costed!) could be to reform (some of) the 2-car pacers into 4-car units by removing one cab from each and fitting a gangway...

Would it be better (i.e. how many 4 coach pacers would actually be needed) to take 3 and form them in to 2 with 3 coaches in each? It is likely to cost the same as forming them as a single 4 coach set (in that there would be two cabs to remove and two gangways to be fitted).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Would it be better (i.e. how many 4 coach pacers would actually be needed) to take 3 and form them in to 2 with 3 coaches in each? It is likely to cost the same as forming them as a single 4 coach set (in that there would be two cabs to remove and two gangways to be fitted).

Good point- I was rather lazy in thinking 2+2 was the only option! The only issue with that is whether it would be possible/worthwhile to fit a 4th doorway to the 'new' centre cars- otherwise the newly formed sets would have 5 doors along one side and 4 on the other- the current situation being 3 on each side for each 2-car set. It could be slightly awkward if a peak service is oriented in such a way that the majority of platforms are on the side with less doors.

 

[jopsuk]

For reference, a hypothetical 4-car pacer would be 62.2m long, approximately the length of a 3-car Class 150. Actually, it may be slightly shorter than that, a 144 centre car is 15.43m. A 3-car pacer (these already exist after all) is 46.53m, slightly longer than a 2-car 156 at 46.06m.

 

[northwichcat]

For reference, a hypothetical 4-car pacer would be 62.2m long, approximately the length of a 3-car Class 150. Actually, it may be slightly shorter than that, a 144 centre car is 15.43m. A 3-car pacer (these already exist after all) is 46.53m, slightly longer than a 2-car 156 at 46.06m.

A difference will be Pacers aren't allowed to do ECS moves in formations longer than 8 car, so having 3 car Pacers instead of newer better 2 car units will likely mean more ECS moves will be needed.