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Edinburgh Tram developments

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Blindtraveler

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They recently expanded the bus timetable also and the fact that its proved popular and runs earlier, much earlier than the tram says to me that this is just the tram attempting to keep up. Id like, as a local council tax payer to be proved very wrong here!
 
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Leki

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As a local council tax payer I'd love for people to stop trying to twist these recent tram success stories into negatives. The fact that both bus and tram services are improving is nothing other than a good thing.

The tram doesn't need to 'keep up' - operationally or economically - as it's does a different job to the Airlink bus and ultimately both are owned by the same organisation. The scepticism makes no sense.
 

Southwest

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Just come back from Edinburgh and I've got to say how impressed I was with the tram system.

Clean, punctual and regular, why didn't London adopt something like this? The only 'downer' was the payment by credit card for tickets. I boarded at Princes Street and paid for a single ticket by cc which cost £1.50, no problems. However, when I rocked up to The Gyle Centre to get back to the hotel, the machine there wouldn't let me use my card, a message said that they wouldn't accept cc payment for under £4. Confused, yes I was.
 

PaulLothian

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Let battle (re-)commence...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-33182160

Edinburgh city council is looking into extending the tram network to Newhaven, Ocean Terminal or the foot of Leith Walk.
The council wants to continue the tram line from the city centre along part of the original route scrapped when the project ran into trouble.
The line currently stops at York Place in the city centre.
Extension cost estimates would be £144.7m to Newhaven, £126.6m to Ocean Terminal and £78.7m to Leith Walk.
Councillors are set to be updated on the progress of a £400,000 business case into the extension on 23 June.
The business case will now look into testing and auditing the plans and look into funding ahead of the final decision in the Autumn.
City chiefs confirmed they would ask the Scottish government to help fund the project if it is approved by councillors.
There would be no more trams bought for the extension.
Lesley Hinds, Edinburgh city council's transport convener, said: "I am extremely pleased with the progress of the business case, which already shows the clear economic impact the extension of the tram line could have on the city.
"In the tram's first year of operation we have seen passenger numbers increase, demonstrating a growing demand for public transport in Edinburgh and making the case for extending the tram to benefit people elsewhere in the city.
"But we don't want to make any rash decisions about the future of the project, and that's why further due diligence is required to ensure a robust financial case that can be used as a basis for an informed judgement.
"We will also be exploring all avenues for funding, and considering a series of new and innovative options with a view to delivering best value.
"It is essential that we learn from our past mistakes and I am confident that this process will deliver thoroughly researched, strategic options for a tram extension."
Edinburgh's tram service began running in May 2014, but only after six years of disruption and a bitter dispute between the city council and its contractor.
The previous Labour-led Scottish government originally earmarked £375m to pay for the tram network, which ended up costing £776m and began running years late.
 
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clc

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That article is dated 18 June. Here's a more recent one:

"The trams will in the very near future go all the way to Newhaven, and the council say they have the money to pay for it, without affecting their revenue budgets in the short or long term.

So yesterday we had George Clooney in town, but this is today’s big news in the capital.

The beleaguered Edinburgh Tram project which contracted to become one tram line from the airport to York Place has a long history, and is now the subject of the Edinburgh Tram Inquiry under the chairmanship of Lord Hardie.

The preparatory works have already been done all the way down Leith Walk, but to stop the line at the Foot of the Walk, on Picardy Place or even at Ocean Terminal would not make financial sense according to council officers. The only option which they recommend is to extend the tram line all the way to Newhaven.

The council agreed in June this year to spend £400,000 on working up the Outline Business Case for the tram extension, and next week councillors will be asked to approve spending of a further £1.6million to take the project to the next stage.

We are not yet at the point of pressing the green for go light on the Tram Extension, but we are getting much closer, as the council approves more investigation.

There are still many hurdles to get over, but the council is adamant that it has learned lessons from the first phase of the tram project and will use this knowledge in taking the next step. They mention traffic management and project governance as two key areas where they will do better next time.

The £1.6million spending to be approved next week will cover what are called Stage 1 activities, which includes procurement for all external processes like hiring lawyers and doing site investigation. This stage is broken down into three parts: Project and Technical Management Resource (£1.3m), Tram Enabling Works (£176K) and Leith Programme Enabling works (£123K).

According to all reports the trams have operated successfully for a year and a bit now, but they are not yet profitable on their own. Nonetheless, during August this year over half a million passengers used the service, and in the latest UK Transport Focus customers said that they are overwhelmingly happy with it. Edinburgh Trams scored a 95% overall satisfaction rating.

So the tram is now reasonably good news for those who use the service, but there is still the matter of how it will be paid for. How will the council be able to pay for the tram extension without affecting any other revenue spending at all?

They say it is very simple: they will use their wholly owned company Lothian Buses to pay for preparatory stages and then provide the ‘deposit’ for prudent borrowing.

In the first place the council already have £5million in its coffers waiting to be spent on the initial phases. This money has been retained from previous dividends paid by Lothian Buses. Secondly they will ask Lothian Buses for a special one-off dividend of £20million over four years which will then be used to enable council borrowing, and which will cover the initial funding gap.

The council also recognise that the proposed financial structure could be affected by any change in the numbers of tram passengers or a drop in tram fares, and that any shortfall would have to be met by the council. The next stage of the project is to investigate ways of reducing this risk, and the report suggests that there is much work to be done before firmly deciding to go ahead.

According to Lothian Buses’ latest accounts to December 2014 the company made a net profit of over £8million, and is in a position to pay a dividend of around £5m per annum quite easily. The City of Edinburgh Council is the company’s biggest shareholder holding over 91% of the shares and so is entitled to demand the dividend needed to make the project a reality.

The capital costs for the extended line have been calculated at £144.7m. The council has investigated borrowing options where the cost would be lower at the beginning, but would increase as the profitability of the project grows, but much depends on The Scottish Government issuing new guidance on council borrowing. The council recognises that there is a risk in any borrowing, particularly in the early years when the line would be under construction with no increase in revenue.

The initial economic research shows that the extended tram line will become profitable almost immediately, and the build cost is the cheapest at £30.9million per kilometre if the line is run to Newhaven.

Leith is the most densely populated area of the city, and the area where only 50% have a car, so it is clear that this area alone adds to the number of potential passengers, but it would not be viable to simply run the line to the foot of Leith Walk.

In addition by 2022 the projections show that there will be another 50,000+ people living in the capital. The bus service in the city may be a very good one but it reaches capacity at 2,400 passengers in one direction each hour, and there will be around 4,000 passengers waiting to get on board from Newhaven, making it necessary to look at other public transport options.

The tram itself will support housing and other economic development across the city and in particular developments at Leith Waterfront which stalled when the decision was taken to stop the tram line in the city."

http://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2015/11/council-preparing-to-take-the-tram-to-newhaven/
 

Blindtraveler

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The economic and groath numbers add up and make sense. Extending the tram to Newhaven also makes sense and whilst I personally wouldnt use it, doing this solves a good many problems in terms of capacity on public transport although not congestion per say as much of that is caused by comercial vehicles although taking a few buses per hour out of the mix will help and (unlike residents of Ratho) nobodys going to get shafted.

What I and doubtless many others (including the SNP Half of the Council Coalition) arnt happy about is the claim that current and future spending woant be affected, a statement designed to win over the doubters and it will Im sure in some cases work. The fact however isthat we have already seen major cuts in spending and services by the City including several major things like the need soon for every member of council staff accept teachers to reapply for less jobs on new terms. Whilst a chunk of these wide ranging cuts can be blamed on the ongoing and IMO now silly Scottish Gov imposed council tax freez the fact remanes that we're already in a lot of debt from phase 1 and now they want us to pay for phase 2?

Businesses in Leith that survived the 1st lot of carnage are still just recovering. How many more will we lose whilst the council project (mis) manages its way through to Newhaven? Exactly who do the council expect to still be around to serve the vast numbers of tourists needed to make the new trams pay if they've bankrupted our businesses, cut back our services and post freez put up our council tax's to an unaffordable level? People dont just stay in a place no matter what. If somewhere has crap services and shrinking employment opportunitties then its people woant stay. More to the point, if the council want the tourists to come and the rate payers to pay then rather than claiming the existing over stretched budget can cover it and hiding the fact we'll spend the next however many years paying for it they should instead consentrate on finding enough private investors and green orgonisations to pay every last penny and consentrate on giving the locals the services they need and deserve and maybe reopening some public toilets for all the happilly spending visiters?

Im also concerned that leaning on Lothian Buses for working capital will result in price hikes and cutbacks for passengers. Already we are seeing certain less proffitable LB routes cut back and as has been widely demonstrated elsewhere if a public transport alternative isnt viable then foalk will simply get in their cars. Net result would then be lots of people both locals and visiters driving round causing further problems, unless you happen to live on the tramline, extended or otherwise.also worth noting that LB is a huge local employer and I refference my earlier notings on what happens if the locals have no jobs or services. Also wonder how East and Midlothian councills feel here? By all means extend the trams, it should have iether been scrapped or built fully anyway but dont ask us to pay for it again, its not fare!
 

dcsprior

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The already open bits of tram line are a mixture of on-street sections and separated railway-like sections. The on-street parts caused the most horrendous disruption to the roads of Edinburgh, and have resulted in a less significant speed increase when compared to the buses which preceded them than has been seen on the separated sections.

The two unbuilt sections of tram line are Haymarket-Granton, and York Place-Newhaven. Given the above, I'm not sure its wise to do the one that's wholly on-street first.

But if they are, would it be feasible to extend it gradually - i.e. only dig up roads along a 1-2 stop distance, then extend the tram service so that the area that's seen disruption gets an immediate benefit, then repeat?
 

Blindtraveler

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They woant think so, but I like your thinking.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I am hearing reports of busy and crouded trams on the Edinburgh Park>Airport Section in the AM and PM times at which key Business flights arrive an depart. It would seam companys are paying the horrifying tram price as although its high its cheeper than taxis if only 1-2 people are traveling. Would be nice to see this recognised by TFE in the shape of a (genuine, i.e not in any way spun) good news story??
 

90019

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Well, it's not like the council are considering cutting thousands of jobs as part of cuts to save £141m over the next few years because they have no money, or anything.


Oh no, hang on...

THE Capital is facing the threat of its worst strike action in nearly 20 years as councillors prepare to vote on whether to make compulsory redundancies as part of a £141 million savings drive.

Leaders of the SNP-Labour coalition, which runs the city council, pledged there would be no mandatory redundancies for the duration of the administration.

But they have admitted that this may need to be reversed as the Capital seeks to cut around 2000 posts to balance the books over the next four years, although any change would be subject to a council vote.
 

Ken Hunter

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I need to be convinced on this. I live in the city and haven't used the trams yet. Also I was totally against the development in the first place It is one line that runs from the Airport missing most of the population hot spots in Edinburgh.

I remember the utter chaos that the works caused. As a self employed driver in the city it was and still is a bloody nightmare to drive. Business went down the tubes. And now the transport convenor wants to repay the people of Leith with more disruption. Also digging up by the way 6million pounds spent trying to put right the mess made the first time around.

I cannot see how the council can afford this given the constraints on funding. I do not think even scraping the council tax freeze to raise more revenue would go down that well.

Also this is a Capital budget not a revenue budget item. As another poster has stated the council is currently a coalition unlikely as it may seem of Lab and SNP. Elections are just around the corner next May and the makeup of the council will be too close to call. I cannot see a SNP dominated one giving this the green light. Nor can I see the Scottish Government throwing money at it. Given the polls that will be the SNP in charge with a majority.
While I do think that the proposed extension at least brings in more residential areas into the route , I still think the benefits are not cost effective. Already we are seeing stories about a fare rise on the excellent buses to help pay for this. I would want to see a t least a fixed cost contract on this before I would even contemplate giving this the go ahead.
 

me123

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I'd love to see the trams reach Newhaven. It makes inherent sense IMO.

We all know the debacle the trams caused in the first place, and it's understandable that the public is wary of any further projects. However, it has good usage figures and high satisfaction amongst those using it. People (including people along the proposed route) seem to want the trams to go to Newhaven, and it would be a relatively simple extension project from the current random terminus in York Place. There's a whole depot of trams sitting waiting to be used.

If the project was to managed properly (and, to be honest, if it was to happen it would be so closely monitored that a repeat of the fiasco is unlikely), I think it would be a worthwhile project. We can all agree that the trams project was mismanaged and that the result is considerably less than what was hoped for. A tram network was proposed, we got a £700M+ single line, that admittedly seems to be doing well in spite of everything. If we don't extend the trams, we're left with a single unfinished tram line, like we have now, and the money is going to be wasted. But if we extend the line to Newhaven, and then perhaps consider building new lines (the originally proposed routes to Musselburgh and Granton could be a good starting point for a second route IMO), we'll soon end up with a network.

I'm sure that lessons have been learned, I'm sure that it's possible to achieve this, and I'm sure that going ahead with these projects will leave us with a much better network at the end.
 

Blindtraveler

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The only bit of your post I agree with is about how going to Newhaven makes sense - it does, however as to the apitite for extentions Iv not met anyone who has one. I also wish I shared your confidence on the lack of a fiasco this time. City of Edinburgh Council are taking incompitence to a new level daily basis so Im quite sure something would go wrong. As stated though I do agree that the line or indeed Network should have been built at the time.
 

kylemore

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A tram network was proposed, we got a £700M+ single line, that admittedly seems to be doing well in spite of everything..

So well that the Cooncil - which remember is a supposedly publicly accountable body - is FIGHTING TOOTH AND NAIL to avoid giving out Revenue information for their successful Tramway.

They say they are commercially sensitive figures (I bet they are!) and have to be protected......from who - all the other Tram systems in Edinburgh!?:lol:
 

Blindtraveler

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Valid point mate
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Extention approved in principal, 9 or so months preparitry work to go ahead anyhow. Various news sites incl BBC have the story. Understandably many arnt amused. I'm one of those but Im in a very small way glad not to hear a total green light without the entire thing going before council again.
 

dcsprior

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Extention approved in principal, 9 or so months preparitry work to go ahead anyhow. Various news sites incl BBC have the story. Understandably many arnt amused. I'm one of those but Im in a very small way glad not to hear a total green light without the entire thing going before council again.

I expect that this will be a very unpopular decision.

Even if the extension is a good idea, this has been announced while the council are having to make very significant "savings" (aka cuts) so anyone who sees a noticeable reduction to a service they use will probably automatically be against this - as will people who have a family member or close friend working for the council.

I expect that if the council were currently run by a single party, this would never happen as it'd be electoral suicide - but with there being a coalition of the 2 main parties, neither can use this as ammunition against the other come the next election.
 

me123

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Nice to see it happening. I know I seem to be in the minority in wanting to see the trams expanded (at least on this forum), but if they can pull this off competently, we might actually be able to move on from the fiasco and demonstrate that light rail projects can work in Scotland.

It makes sense to extend the line to Leith and Newhaven, where it will have a great benefit to the local area.
 

overthewater

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The council should not be wasting money on stupid ideas to save grace. There is a good reason waiting 9 months.... A election is due next MAY, but I would not be surprised if any approval is not past until June 2017.
 

WatcherZero

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Second full year of operation, 5.38m passengers up 9.3% from 4.92m and 340,000 above budget. Revenue was 6% ahead of budget.
 

Mordac

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Scotsman article on the new figures:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/trams-enjoy-a-passenger-boom-in-their-second-year-1-4146564

Trams enjoy a passenger boom in their second year


Edinburghs tram line has seen numbers continue to rise as it enters its third year of operation. Picture: Ian Rutherford
ALISTAIR GRANT

Edinburgh trams have seen a 9 per cent boom in passengers in its second 12 months of operation.

New figures show 5.38 million passengers used the service – an increase on the 4.92 million who got on board during its first year.

The controversial line marked its second birthday at the end of last month. It was officially launched at 5am on Saturday, 31 May, 2014.

Transport bosses said the passenger numbers were around 340,000 ahead of target.

They also insisted the service had raked in 6 per cent more revenue than expected – with full details of the company’s performance due to be released in the summer.

Tram general manager Lea Harrison said: “The trams are a convenient, comfortable and cost-effective way of travelling through the city and we’re delighted to see this reflected in our passenger figures.

“We’ll continue to introduce further improvements to encourage even more travellers to hop on board.”

Concessionary card holders currently account for 8.2 per cent of passengers, which bosses argue is well within the council’s budget.

The trams recently received a 97 per cent overall customer satisfaction rating following an independent UK wide survey by Passenger Focus, operating with 99 per cent service reliability.

A good year was topped off when the service picked up a Certificate of Excellence from travel review site TripAdvisor.

George Lowder, chief executive of Transport for Edinburgh, said the results were “hugely encouraging”.

He added: I am extremely grateful to all the staff at Edinburgh Trams for their dedication and hard work that provides such an excellent service as recorded in the 2015 Passenger Focus Survey and by Trip-Advisor. We are concentrating this year on enhancement of the existing service and are certainly not going to be complacent.”

Lesley Hinds, chairwoman of Transport for Edinburgh and the city council’s transport leader, said: “There is no doubt Edinburgh Trams is going from strength to strength, as these latest passenger figures show, alongside consistently high customer satisfaction ratings. “
 

Altfish

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£5 a pop to the aéroport soon adds up.

That said the trams are being used and by people who would never be seen on a #busesareforpeasants

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How many go all the way to the Airport? The other fares are very reasonable, is it £3.20 return in the City Zone (which includes everywhere apart from the Airport, iirc)
 

reb0118

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How many go all the way to the Airport? The other fares are very reasonable, is it £3.20 return in the City Zone (which includes everywhere apart from the Airport, iirc)
I think most trams go to/from the airport. Very early ones to town start at The Gyle as do the later arrivals terminate there.

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Mordac

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How many go all the way to the Airport? The other fares are very reasonable, is it £3.20 return in the City Zone (which includes everywhere apart from the Airport, iirc)

They start from the Gyle to York Place at 0500, then start from the Airport 0615. After that, all from the Airport until end of service.

The other way, they start from York Place to the Airport at 0529 then all to the Airport until the 2308. Then two more departures (2318 and 28) to the Gyle.
 

Blindtraveler

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I think the real market based on my limmeted use of the line outwith festival season is Edinburgh Park to Airport where the price and travel time beat the car, bus or taxi
 
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