East Coast

[Zoe]

What's the point of getting someone to run your service for you, if they can walk away from the commitment and, in the end, you still have to run the service ?

Is that not better than the government bailing out the the TOCs like with the banks?

 

[sprinterguy]

Perhaps a compromise would be to order it from a trolley and have it freshly made in the galley?

Basically introducing an at-seat meal service for standard class passengers. I'd like to see something like this personally, the problem is it would reduce the attractiveness of travelling first class and having this service available.

The trolleys are definitely not a substitute for a full buffet which can stock a much wider range of products and keep them chilled or heated as required. If Intercity trains are to have a trolley service, it should compliment the buffet, by offering the range of sandwiches, snacks and tea/coffee/soft drinks, whilst the buffet caters for the more wholesome offerings, instead of the trolley and it's limited range of products completely replacing the buffet service. The trolley service should be able to provide a menu of what's available from the buffet to anyone who is interested along the train, which would attract more people to use it.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Is that not better than the government bailing out the the TOCs like with the banks?

Government bailing out banks and government bailing out TOCs are pretty much the same. It's another instance of the public sector standing behind the private sector, when things go wrong.

In the case of the banks, you seperate the investment and retails operations.

In the case of TOCs, insist on their contract obligations before they sign up. If a TOC knows it has to meet its premium payment for the entirety and come what may, the TOC might make a more sensible offer to run the service in the first place.

Of course, this doesn't legislate for what could go wrong if TOC actually runs out of money or goes bankrupt.

When the TOC signs up, they could place a higher bond with the DfT. NX East Coasts bond was (IIRC) £72 million on a commitment of £1.4 billion. A 10% £140 million upfront bond might be better. Or possibly in the case of NX, the entire company standing behind franchse commitment could be used as collateral against the £1.4 billion franchise commitment. A bit extreme, but it least it shows both parties mean business.

 

[sprinterguy]

As shinkansen1966 is saying, the problem with the current privatisation model is that there is no risk for the private company operating the service. At the start of the franchise, the Government will usually be paying the operator a subsidy, which is expected to be returned as a premium from the TOC later in the franchise.

This means that for the first few years, the TOC can rest easy and make the minimum amount of effort, whilst being supported by public sector money. Then, when the going gets tough and the TOC is expected to return something to the Government, the private company can simply step back with very little negative consequence to themselves, safe in the knowledge that the Government will pick up the pieces.

There is a lot more money going into the TOCs from the public sector in subsidies than is being returned to it in premiums. This sort of approach to privatisation does nothing to encourage private sector innovation and good management in order to maximise revenues and reduce cost in a sustainable manner that is good for the railway.

I agree with shinkansen1966 that the TOCs' should be forced to fulfil their contractual obligations throughout the length of the franchise in order to pay promised premiums to the Government.

 

[Tom B]

That sounds more like it!

Of course, remember that the existing bacon sandwiches in first class are billed as "freshly prepared" - i.e. "freshly taken out of the packet and stuck in a toastie machine".

 

[shinkansen1966]

I agree with shinkansen1966 that the TOCs' should be forced to fulfil their contractual obligations throughout the length of the franchise in order to pay promised premiums to the Government.

This is what happened with the Tube Public Private Partnership. There were cost overuns and private investors couldn't / didn't want to stump at the extra cash. Now all the upgrade work has been taken back in house by TfL. So that was a waste of time.

Politicans unusually quiet on Tube upgrades cost overruns. For once, I'd like to hear what they've got say.

 

[Greenback]

So that was a waste of time.

Not to mention money

 

[shinkansen1966]

Not to mention money

Greeback, I see your profile is "TOC owner". Does this mean we can all moan about your fares and service ?

 

[Greenback]

By all means...though since I don't own a TOC it would be a bit pointless!!!

Sadly I am not Moir Lockhead, Richard Branson or Brian Souter!

 

[shinkansen1966]

By all means...though since I don't own a TOC it would be a bit pointless!!!

Sadly I am not Moir Lockhead, Richard Branson or Brian Souter!

Darned, I wanted to write a letter of complaint. Guess, I'll have to travel on an actual train and afterwards moan about the travel experience here. As usual.

 

[fhs man 2]

What will happen when east coast go. Who do you think will take over. scary thought

 

[sprinterguy]

What will happen when east coast go. Who do you think will take over. scary thought

It'll probably be a bus company. When the shiny, new, privatised railway was launched, didn't anyone foresee that the dominant players in winning franchises would obviously be those who already had previous experience in operating public transport in a fragmented privatised industry that already had 10 years worth of existance, i.e. the bus operators? It's not exactly "equal opportunites for all" is it?

 

[shinkansen1966]

What will happen when east coast go. Who do you think will take over. scary thought

Good question ! Certainly not National Express. Don't think DfT want to hear from them anytime soon.

First have FCC and FGW which is a big enough empire. Financially, they're pretty heavily committed to DfT already.

Virgin's West Coast contract is supposed to be up for grabs in the next few years. So expect some musical chairs with DfT giving Virgin east coast contact. West coast will then be handed over to someone else eg Stagecoach. Stagecoach already have a half share of Virgin trains.

East Coast makes money, whoever runs it. The issue will be how to share the spoils between DfT and the company who takes over the EC contract.

By stringing along the existing contractors, government clearly demonstrating they don't have rail policy at the mo. No change there really...

 

[jopsuk]

Don't forget First also have Scotrail and a majority stake in TPE

 

[87015]

Not sure if its in here but the XC regular Glasgow services have now been agreed with the DfT from May according to a source at XC.

 

[ainsworth74]

Don't forget First also have Scotrail and a majority stake in TPE

As well as a majority stake in Hull Trains as well. In fact would that make First pretty much the biggest operator of TOC's? They have FGW, FCC, TPE, FSR, FHT am I missing anymore?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In fact just doing some quick checking would suggest that First operates over 7500 route km of the UK network, anyone other company beat that? (Obviously there is a bit of overlap, such as HT and FCC or TPE and FSR, but still!).

 

[CarterUSM]

As well as a majority stake in Hull Trains as well. In fact would that make First pretty much the biggest operator of TOC's? They have FGW, FCC, TPE, FSR, FHT am I missing anymore?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In fact just doing some quick checking would suggest that First operates over 7500 route km of the UK network, anyone other company beat that? (Obviously there is a bit of overlap, such as HT and FCC or TPE and FSR, but still!).

What about number of services though?

 

[Zoe]

Virgin's West Coast contract is supposed to be up for grabs in the next few years. So expect some musical chairs with DfT giving Virgin east coast contact. West coast will then be handed over to someone else eg Stagecoach. Stagecoach already have a half share of Virgin trains.

As I said in another thread, I very much doubt both Virgin Trains and Stagecoach would make it through to the shortlist and considering Virgin Trains is the incumbant then I'd expect to see them on the shortlist and in pole position to retain the franchise. As for East Coast, don't rule out First. The benefit would be that all franchised services out of King's Cross would be owned by the same group. I remember a few years ago the SRA wanted a single operator for each London terminus. This only got as far as Liverpool Street and Paddington.

 

[shinkansen1966]

First would make sense for East Coast. Could operate a unified timetable out of KX with their FCC contract. But First's empire big enough already.

So how about Arriva for EastCoast?

Frankly, between First/Stagecoach/Virgin/NX/Arriva, they're all generic train operators. Not sure is there's much to tell them apart, save their branding. DfT have developed EastCoast Eureka timetable. Little scope for innovation.

 

[ainsworth74]

What about number of services though?

No idea, and not sure how I would even go about working that out

 

[silentone]

Of course, remember that the existing bacon sandwiches in first class are billed as "freshly prepared" - i.e. "freshly taken out of the packet and stuck in a toastie machine".

Not on East Coast. They are freshly prepared, bacon and bread are delivered to each train every morning. Some crews will make up toasties and place them in packs ready to be heated as required, others will make them up as required using the grill or toaster. Each crew's different but all of them are made on-train.

Trains departing Newcastle in the morning have also been trialling freshly baked danish pastries.

The post about placing the order with the trolley and having it delivered is also correct but this will not replace the buffet, all of this is part of the trial. The EPOS system introduced by GNER before its demise has a number of features available to it. All trains have been fitted with a printer in the kitchen which allows each EPOS terminal to send orders to the kitchen.

 

[Aictos]

First would make sense for East Coast. Could operate a unified timetable out of KX with their FCC contract.

I would welcome that, it's the one thing I did like about the SRA is their vision of one TOC per London terminal although it would be interesting merging FCC with East Coast and Hull Trains - Merging First Great Western Link, First Great Western and Wessex Trains into First Great Western was quite easy as it was one route into Paddington but FCC serves two different routes so not so easy.

Whatever happens, I think East Coast would be rebranded as First East Coast if First were successful and although managed by First would still be separate from the other TOCs like FCC, FTPE, FHT, FSR and FGW are all treated as different companies but under the First umbrella.

I just hope First do well in the next stage of any bidding for franchises but certainly hope they manage a Southern and retain the FCC franchise when it comes up for renewal.

 

[ainsworth74]

I just hope First do well in the next stage of any bidding for franchises

Not that you're biased towards them by association or anything

 

[Aictos]

Not that you're biased towards them by association or anything

Course not,

 

[caliwag]

BR Intercity set the standard for the East Coast: I used 'em regularly prior to privatisation. GNER were very lucky and clever to win that. Mr Sherwood indeed had the right idea to flood the trains, at least at the First Class end, with hostesses and superb they were.
I enjoyed quite a few ICEC journeys in FC...great food, great service.
This did indeed carry on into GNER...In First Class you were looked after it seemed to me, and there were lots of friendly staff.

Generally, the bus company lost the plot rapidly, not realising that they had a captive audience...complete amateurs. However, EC have turned that round. Food served at the table, decent stuff too: very friendly staff and still quite a lot of them...at the FC end, people expect that, surely! So I applaud FC's efforts...morale must be good.

I do recall though, GNER serving regional beers and cheeses, slabs of game pie and decent port on ordinary trains...marvellous: encourage people to enjoy train travel. Sadly for XC, that notion has rather escaped their accountants...though why would you ask accountants? Luckily FGW are still on song, with the travelling chef...enjoy you long distance travel before it becomes Ryanised!!!:cry:

 

[fhs man 2]

i only went on GNER once in Febuary 2007 i was on my way from edinburgh to aberdeen and the train was packed and i booked seats because someone was in my seats they didnt tell them to get off my seat instead the upgraded me to first class which i think was a better idea

 

[38Cto15E]

I've just had an e-mail from East Coast promoting the ECML and it's connections with the Harry Potter films saying show your kids the locations.

There is a picture of Glenfinnan viaduct, also it says show them Platform 9 3/4 at Kings Cross, but I thought that had been demolished under the modernisation plan.

I would still like to be on The Chieftain today though.

 

[silentone]

I've just had an e-mail from East Coast promoting the ECML and it's connections with the Harry Potter films saying show your kids the locations.

There is a picture of Glenfinnan viaduct, also it says show them Platform 9 3/4 at Kings Cross, but I thought that had been demolished under the modernisation plan.

I would still like to be on The Chieftain today though.

Not sure why you'd want to be on it today as there is nothing of note happening other than Pope but that finished before the train arrives. 9 3/4 is still there between 8/9. There was a queue of folk the other day waiting to take pictures!

 

[sprinterguy]

I've just had an e-mail from East Coast promoting the ECML and it's connections with the Harry Potter films saying show your kids the locations.

There is a picture of Glenfinnan viaduct, also it says show them Platform 9 3/4 at Kings Cross, but I thought that had been demolished under the modernisation plan.

I would still like to be on The Chieftain today though.

Interesting that East Coast would advertise Glenfinnan Viaduct amongst it's Harry Potter connections, given that its' trains get nowhere near to serving the West Highland line, and it is shortly to withdraw it's Glasgow services that could at least provide a link to the WHL Scotrail services!

You would think that Goathland station on the NYMR, used as Hogsmeade station during the earlier films, woud be of greater relevance to East Coast Harry Potter marketing!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not sure why you'd want to be on it today as there is nothing of note happening other than Pope but that finished before the train arrives. 9 3/4 is still there between 8/9. There was a queue of folk the other day waiting to take pictures!

Why wouldn't you want to be on the Cheiftain is more the question, on any day? It's a quality train service, running through diverse and beautiful scenery, what's not to like? Would most want to be on the northbound service, when the good stuff is towards the journeys end

 

[fhs man 2]

how do you get free wifi in east coast i tryed it and you either had to pay or ask a member of staff cant remember