East Coast

[shinkansen1966]

Recently, went on 19:33 EC train Kings Cross->Leeds. Had a standard class ticket, but opted for the dining car. Was very impressed. Reminded me of the good old GNER days

I do not understand why the East Coast service needs to be re-franchised. It's a profitable service for the DfT and ticket sales more the cover the cost of running the service. Once re-privatised, why would the DfT want to share the profits with a private company via the premia arrangement that will follow between DfT and private operator ?

And when the service is privatised (again), you can expect some tight arsed generic private operator. We're heading from some pretty austere times, so expect the operation to be run as cheaply as possible.

 

[sprinterguy]

And when the service is privatised (again), you can expect some tight arsed generic private operator. We're heading from some pretty austere times, so expect the operation to be run as cheaply as possible.

So we'll probably be saying bye-bye to the buffets then...

Unfortunately, leaving East Coast in Government hands would be a case of double standards in the organisation of UK passenger operators when every other TOC is a private franchise, so it would create an uneven playing field (even more than it already is). And more importantly, keeping East Coast nationalised would be an admonition from the Tories that their privatisation of the railways really hasn't worked, which they would never admit to!

 

[shinkansen1966]

And more importantly, keeping East Coast nationalised would be an admonition from the Tories that their privatisation of the railways really hasn't worked, which they would never admit to!

So to clarify...

Will the EastCoast go back into the private sector for economic or political reasons ?

 

[YorkshireBear]

ECML
So why then concider letting another bus company in & make a complete cock up like dearly departed &unloved NatEx-Virgin is just a front company for Stagecoach who are at present removing buffet cars off Midland Mainline services, hardly a customer service level improvement ideal more a penny pinching cost saving profit making scheme.
Will that money get reinvested into MML services-More chance of the Pope having a family railcard for forthcoming tour of the UK.

There not removing buffet cars, there not having them work, trolley services have proved more profitable as people would rather food come to them not have to walk along a moving train. would you get up on a plane?

Buffet cars will be put into service when trolley is stuck during overcrowding. To me that is a fantastic sensible idea...

 

[shinkansen1966]

Buffet cars will be put into service when trolley is stuck during overcrowding. To me that is a fantastic sensible idea...

Interesting how the rail companies are modelling themselves on budget airlines:
- trolley service replacing buffet
- discounted advanced purchase fares, pricey fares for immediate departure
- more seating/reduced pitch: eg FGW standard class, XC voyagers
- booking other services on the web eg car hire, hotels (not necessarily a bad thing)

Generally, you take a budget airline because it's the cheapest. Invariable travelling on a budget airline is never a trully a pleasant experience. Not sure if the long distance TOCs should copy this model. GNER actually felt like a train trip.

 

[Greenback]

TOC's should not copy budget airlines. But it is hard for them to resist as the model has been very successful over the last decade and a bit.

We need to turn the clock back a bit, and realise that the time of the budget carrier will soon be passing (see my assorted other ramblings in other threads!).

In terms of the catering, this has been discussed elsewhere, but if, as jimmyowl says, trolley son EMT ar emore profitable, this must be in percentage terms (eg 1.3% as opposed to 1.2%!), since trolleys do not carry the same range of, or the same quality products as a static buffet can.

 

[shinkansen1966]

since trolleys do not carry the same range of, or the same quality products as a static buffet can.

Personally, I loathe trolleys with all my heart. They block aisles; they can be quite distracting when a transaction is taken place next your seat; they look cheap and nasty. And inevitable everything is sold in plastic wrappers with look and feel of those brightly coloured vile food products you see in 24 mini markets inside petrol stations.

 

[harz99]

So to clarify...

Will the EastCoast go back into the private sector for economic or political reasons ?

No question - sound economics
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Personally, I loathe trolleys with all my heart. They block aisles; they can be quite distracting when a transaction is taken place next your seat; they look cheap and nasty. And inevitable everything is sold in plastic wrappers with look and feel of those brightly coloured vile food products you see in 24 mini markets inside petrol stations.

Not just that - cold drinks are impossible, and hot are often lukewarm or non existent. Trolleyes belong on 2 or 3 car sets not IC trains (excepting those used in First for proper customer service).

 

[me123]

Interesting how the rail companies are modelling themselves on budget airlines:
- trolley service replacing buffet
- discounted advanced purchase fares, pricey fares for immediate departure
- more seating/reduced pitch: eg FGW standard class, XC voyagers
- booking other services on the web eg car hire, hotels (not necessarily a bad thing)

You could say that it's being modelled on budget airlines. But there are sound reasons for the first three options. Often, buffets are closed to increase seating capacity (as was the case on XC's Voyagers). I suppose some people prefer trolleys to buffets. Personally, I don't; but I do like East Coast's solution where both are available.

Furthermore, many passengers would prefer to have a seat, than standing with a buffet open and with all the passengers who were lucky enough to get a seat getting a bit more legroom. I know I would.

And, as for AP fares, these have proven very popular with passengers. I don't think for a minute that walk up fares would be any cheaper if there weren't Advance tickets. They let people get a cheaper fare, and probably get people onto the rails who would otherwise have chosen an alternative method.

In fact, one of the reasons for AP ticketing is probably to compete against airlines, particularly on Anglo-Scottish services.

 

[Greenback]

Ap ticketting was brought in originally to fill seats that would otherwise be empty. The prsumption at BR being better to get £5 than nothing. I doisagree that AP exists primarily to compete with airlines - if this was the case there would be no AP fares where there is no air competition. In fact, AP competes on price against coaches, other TOC's and, to an extent private cars. However, you are, fo course, right to say that non AP fares would not be lower if AP's didn't exist!

 

[shinkansen1966]

Often, buffets are closed to increase seating capacity.

So lets have a buffet car and more seating. Prefer that, than than no buffet car at extra seating. Those buffet-less XC Voyagers feel like a packed Ryanair flight.

Furthermore, many passengers would prefer to have a seat, than standing with a buffet open and with all the passengers who were lucky enough to get a seat getting a bit more legroom. I know I would.

Again, longer trains with more carriages please !

And, as for AP fares, these have proven very popular with passengers. I don't think for a minute that walk up fares would be any cheaper if there weren't Advance tickets.

Cheaper walk on fares please !

Let's not kid overselves. Mostly, train operators run trains to make money. Just like Ryanair operates flights to make money. To make money, you need as many seats and roving trolleys with plastic wrapped food for longer shelf life. To my regret, a public service is over...

 

[paul1609]

ECML is a profitable route & makes money-Government at present is strapped for cash. Therefore Government needs ECML
I assume at present any profit made gets paid direct to DfT so route is self funded. As tax payer as now invested in the improving of services levels to near GNER/BR bench mark.
So why then concider letting another bus company in & make a complete cock up like dearly departed &unloved NatEx-Virgin is just a front company for Stagecoach who are at present removing buffet cars off Midland Mainline services, hardly a customer service level improvement ideal more a penny pinching cost saving profit making scheme.
Will that money get reinvested into MML services-More chance of the Pope having a family railcard for forthcoming tour of the UK.

Surely MML is not really an intercity operator anymore? Its longest journey is a little over 2 hours from London. Southern have longer journeys than that from Victoria.
With the large choice of food available at St Pancras its very unlikely that I or many other passengers would make a purchase from the buffet anymore. I'm much more likely to carry on a M&S salad or pasta and a starbucks.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Surely MML is not really an intercity operator anymore? Its longest journey is a little over 2 hours from London. Southern have longer journeys than that from Victoria.
With the large choice of food available at St Pancras its very unlikely that I or many other passengers would make a purchase from the buffet anymore. I'm much more likely to carry on a M&S salad or pasta and a starbucks.

Agreed. Dunno why I'm moaning about the loss of the buffet service. Rarely buy anything from it. Generally bring my own food. Just don't want to be subjected to the ghastly, disruptive, nasty trolley trundling up and down the aisles, Ryanair style.

"Surely MML is not really an intercity operator "
*** Bring back INTERCITY, I say !!

 

[me123]

So lets have a buffet car and more seating. Prefer that, than than no buffet car at extra seating. Those buffet-less XC Voyagers feel like a packed Ryanair flight.

Again, longer trains with more carriages please !

Cheaper walk on fares please !

Don't get me wrong, I think these solutions are wonderful and are better than the "compromises" that we've made instead. But let's be realistic for a second. If we could just snap our fingers and get longer trains, then there wouldn't be overcrowding problems up and down the UK. And decreasing the price of walk on fares would only serve to decrease the funding available. Sadly, we don't live in a utopian world.

They may not be the best solutions, but to be honest when you look at the constraints placed on the rail industry and the shambolic way that privatisation has worked (where many of the benefits of privatisation have really been lost) the TOCs really have done the best that they can with what they have. As I've said before, I would rather have a seat than be forced to stand watching those people lucky enough to get a seat enjoy a few more inches of legroom.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ap ticketting was brought in originally to fill seats that would otherwise be empty. The prsumption at BR being better to get £5 than nothing. I doisagree that AP exists primarily to compete with airlines - if this was the case there would be no AP fares where there is no air competition. In fact, AP competes on price against coaches, other TOC's and, to an extent private cars. However, you are, fo course, right to say that non AP fares would not be lower if AP's didn't exist!

I don't think that they were designed for that, but I think this purpose has evolved over time. Over the 1990s, the budget airlines rose up and offered (and continue to offer) some excellent fares. And, over this time, the trains really have had to keep offering competitive AP fares to keep passengers on the rails.

Let's face it, if there were no rail Advances fares, you could be choosing between a £20 flight on Ryanair and a £100 rail journey. Even when you add on extras, Ryanair wins, and most people will go for the cheapest option. But, when the train company offers a range of lower priced fares, they can effectively compete with the airlines.

There's no doubt in my mind that scrapping Advance rail fares would be hugely beneficial for the budget airline market, and hugely detrimental for the Intercity train operators.

 

[MCR247]

Surely MML is not really an intercity operator anymore? Its longest journey is a little over 2 hours from London. Southern have longer journeys than that from Victoria.

But ScotRail runs the West Highland line service which takes around 4 hours and Virgin take around half an hour longer to get to Glasgow. Is Virgin no longer Intercity?

 

[John @ home]

Surely MML is not really an intercity operator anymore? Its longest journey is a little over 2 hours from London. Southern have longer journeys than that from Victoria.

It seems you've not needed to use the SuO 1430 St Pancras - Leeds 1824 recently.

 

[shinkansen1966]

Don't get me wrong, I think these solutions are wonderful and are better than the "compromises" that we've made instead. But let's be realistic for a second. If we could just snap our fingers and get longer trains, then there wouldn't be overcrowding problems up and down the UK. And decreasing the price of walk on fares would only serve to decrease the funding available. Sadly, we don't live in a utopian world.

You're right. Some of this would have happened under British Rail. The TOCs are under pressure from DfT to deliver profits. The results are cut backs in catering disguised as 'innovate food options'. Or 'wide choice of rail tickets' which really means complex choices with some real bargains, if you shop around.

As I've mentioned elsewhere here, think budget airline success has peaked. But for much of the previous decade, their growth in passengers numbers and choice of destinations has been a travel success story (of sorts). When early 90s passenger forecasts where done for Eurostar, the idea of flying to Paris for £50 return was not considered !

 

[silentone]

In response to why East Coast is better than NXEC. Under NXEC the franchise was limited in it's financial capabilities, they had high premiums to pay and things had to change to meet the payments. For example depots keep a supply of spares (i.e door handles, doors, chair arms, toilet seats etc) During the big NXEC crisis depots were told to stop ordering replacements and run down the current supply of spares - this is when things started getting worse and the fleet started to fall into some serious states of disrepair.

East Coast don't have such high premiums to pay, but they do contribute something. The aim of the entire East Coast situation was to repair and rework the service so any new potential franchisee won't have to compete with the endless list of faults and problems. The government has since said East Coast will be running the line until 2013-2014 now as they don't believe any current bid submitted would represent value for money - the reason for it going back to the private arms is mainly political with one source stating "we have to return it to the private sector...." (Something to do with European legislation... I don't know the exact legislation they are referring to).

People seem to loathe trolley's, but from a money earning point of view they bring in the big bucks. We're not talking small change here either. Yes they block the aisle but really most EC staff will let you past where possible or even wait a few minutes in each vestibule to let anyone past.

As for the quality of food - EC are about to launch another new trial of products for their trolleys. Starting on Monday certain southbound services will have a trolley geared for 'Breakfast' it will not have the usual chocolate, cakes & fizzy drinks. It will have freshly made danish pastries, bagels, porridge, yoghurts, bacon toasties, Orange Juice, water etc - customer feedback in recent surveys has identified a growing need. I can't remember off the top of my head which services it is but I think it's all morning services leaving Edinburgh for 4 weeks.

The other news about the big catering improvements for the Eureka! timetable has been put on hold but they aim to have it ready for Eureka. The big announcement on the changes seems to have been delayed by politics!

 

[Greenback]

Don't get me wrong, I think these solutions are wonderful and are better than the "compromises" that we've made instead. But let's be realistic for a second. If we could just snap our fingers and get longer trains, then there wouldn't be overcrowding problems up and down the UK. And decreasing the price of walk on fares would only serve to decrease the funding available. Sadly, we don't live in a utopian world.

They may not be the best solutions, but to be honest when you look at the constraints placed on the rail industry and the shambolic way that privatisation has worked (where many of the benefits of privatisation have really been lost) the TOCs really have done the best that they can with what they have. As I've said before, I would rather have a seat than be forced to stand watching those people lucky enough to get a seat enjoy a few more inches of legroom.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I don't think that they were designed for that, but I think this purpose has evolved over time. Over the 1990s, the budget airlines rose up and offered (and continue to offer) some excellent fares. And, over this time, the trains really have had to keep offering competitive AP fares to keep passengers on the rails.

Let's face it, if there were no rail Advances fares, you could be choosing between a £20 flight on Ryanair and a £100 rail journey. Even when you add on extras, Ryanair wins, and most people will go for the cheapest option. But, when the train company offers a range of lower priced fares, they can effectively compete with the airlines.

There's no doubt in my mind that scrapping Advance rail fares would be hugely beneficial for the budget airline market, and hugely detrimental for the Intercity train operators.

Yes, rail has had to offer Advance fares, but not necessarily to compete with air. There are no realistic air options for many parts of the UK, at least certainly not on the scale that Scotland enjoys. My choice from South West Wales is train or coach, for example!

 

[route:oxford]

It will have freshly made danish pastries, bagels, porridge, yoghurts, bacon toasties, Orange Juice, water etc - customer feedback in recent surveys has identified a growing need.

Ok, good selection...

But...

How are they going to keep the Yoghurts, OJ and sandwiches cold...

And

The Porridge and Bacon Hot?

 

[blacknight]

Political ideology. Even Labour bought into the private = good, public = bad philosophy.

Just because New Labour bought into the idea don't making it good-Remember this was the party of PFI renewing the country on the never never of HP.
Only trouble is when the never never comes to an end product is knackered & worthless & millions have been wasted in interest charges, bit like my old Dagenham Dustbin.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So we'll probably be saying bye-bye to the buffets then...

Unfortunately, leaving East Coast in Government hands would be a case of double standards in the organisation of UK passenger operators when every other TOC is a private franchise, so it would create an uneven playing field (even more than it already is). And more importantly, keeping East Coast nationalised would be an admonition from the Tories that their privatisation of the railways really hasn't worked, which they would never admit to!

Wasn't exactly a level playing field when GNER were running ECML & recieving no subsidy whilst Virgin were subsidised running WCML

 

[jopsuk]

Ok, good selection...

But...

How are they going to keep the Yoghurts, OJ and sandwiches cold...

And

The Porridge and Bacon Hot?

They probably won't do it this way, but one engineering solution would be to use a small heat pump- essentially, use a minifridge (battery powered- not sure how long you could keep the batteries going), but rather than just venting the heat out the back, put the excess heat to use heating the porridge and bacon. Energy efficiency- gotta love it.

 

[blacknight]

In response to why East Coast is better than NXEC. Under NXEC the franchise was limited in it's financial capabilities, they had high premiums to pay and things had to change to meet the payments.

East Coast don't have such high premiums to pay, but they do contribute something. The aim of the entire East Coast situation was to repair and rework the service so any new potential franchisee won't have to compete with the endless list of faults and problems. The government has since said East Coast will be running the line until 2013-2014 now as they don't believe any current bid submitted would represent value for money - the reason for it going back to the private arms is mainly political with one source stating "we have to return it to the private sector...." (Something to do with European legislation... I don't know the exact legislation they are referring to).

NatEx didn't have to pay such a high premium for franchise it was what they were willing to pay to run franchise at the time, DfT like any seller took the money being offered.
Surely the Government should be putting the squeeze on NatEx to repay costs for making good what they mess up on ECML If you get behind with mortgage payments are banks so willing to write of the debt?

 

[route:oxford]

They probably won't do it this way, but one engineering solution would be to use a small heat pump- essentially, use a minifridge (battery powered- not sure how long you could keep the batteries going), but rather than just venting the heat out the back, put the excess heat to use heating the porridge and bacon. Energy efficiency- gotta love it.

I suppose small propane gas cyclinders would be easier than batteries... The excess heat from the porridge and bacon powering the gas fridge.

The chap with trolley who stands outside Oxford Station would be very welcome. Beautiful thick cut local reared/cured bacon sandwiches cooked to order on a gas griddle. Could just imagine sitting on the morning HST to London whilst he makes his way up the carriage cooking bacon to order...

 

[silentone]

Bacon toasties have previously been sold from the trolley and on this occasion there is the possibility of a full British breakfast being sold from the trolley. The issue of yoghurts is pretty much the same as carrying toasties, oj & sandwiches and will be addressed by existing procedures for carrying perishable foods.

As for porridge, clearly you've put too much thought into it.

NX did have to pay the high premiums, I'm talking about after the franchise started. They didn't have to bid as high, but they did - and weren't the highest bidder. My original post was based on events after the franchise started and the steps they took to meet those payments rather than getting into a pedantic war of words and technicalities.

 

[142094]

Full English breakfast from a trolley? TBH I'd rather go to my local greasy spoon and get one there.

 

[Greenback]

I dread to think what a fulle nglish from a trolley would actually be like in reality! I suspect it would be less than pleasant!

 

[me123]

I dread to think what a fulle nglish from a trolley would actually be like in reality! I suspect it would be less than pleasant!

Perhaps a compromise would be to order it from a trolley and have it freshly made in the galley?

 

[shinkansen1966]

NatEx didn't have to pay such a high premium for franchise it was what they were willing to pay to run franchise at the time, DfT like any seller took the money being offered.
Surely the Government should be putting the squeeze on NatEx to repay costs for making good what they mess up on ECML If you get behind with mortgage payments are banks so willing to write of the debt?

This is exactly my point too !

National Express offered to run the EastCoast service for 8 year period from 2007 to 2015. They offered to pay DfT £1.4 billion over this period. DfT agreed and both parties signed a contract. Exactly how much of this £1.4 billion has National Express paid ?

This is my single biggest gripe about rail privatisation. Private companies offer to run the service. And when they screw up, they can walk away from the contract with little or no financial loss.

What's the point of getting someone to run your service for you, if they can walk away from the commitment and, in the end, you still have to run the service ?

 

[Greenback]

Perhaps a compromise would be to order it from a trolley and have it freshly made in the galley?

That sounds more like it!