Dual Door Buses

[TheGrandWazoo]

Maybe but why are these advantages only applicable to the UK outwith London? What unique conditions exist that don't in most of the rest of the world?

Different commercial environment. In London or elsewhere in a regulated environment, the additional cost of extra vehicles because capacity is reduce borne by the tendering authority. Additional costs of servicing (if dual doors are built into the tender spec) will ultimately be built into every tender bid so again the cost is borne by the tendering authority.

For most of the UK, the operator would have to shoulder that burden themselves and they have worked out that the trade off of improved dwell times is not outweighed by the additional cost of purchase, maintenance, capacity issues etc.

 

[Andyh82]

Do dual doors even save much time, as if there is literally hundreds getting off then surely they'd still get in the way of passengers getting on, just inside the bus rather than in the doorway?

Getting a bus exactly parallel with the kerb, close enough for pushchairs etc in a busy city centre with close together bus stops, car parking, taxi ranks etc, to ensure two doors were able to be used, is probably near impossible.

 

[mark-h]

The second door takes up an area of low-floor space that could be used for a buggy space (in addition to the wheelchair bay) or more priority seating.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Plenty of dual doors in the late 60s/ early 70s even in relatively small towns.

For example:

Most Crewe local services were converted to dual-door in 1971/72
The M22 Conwy - Colwyn Bay was converted at a similar time
In the mid-80s there were even dual-door minibuses in Devon!

The advantage was seen to be better passenger flow - passengers could board at the front without having to wait for passengers to alight.

BUT

The disadvantages were:

Lower capacity (on the Bristol REs you lost 5 seats, on the Leyland National 4 seats)
Safety - door distant from the driver made supervision more difficult
Fare evasion - potentially, though it doesn't seem to have been much of a problem back then
Structural - on some types there was a weakness in the body structure

the true 'Nottingham Standard' is dual door , some batches even had a narrow single leaf front door for boarding
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Why's that?

Now I come to think of it, I don't tend to see those sort of bus stops abroad either.

becuse you need 'fingers/ islands' out the rearmost door , rather than the the dog tooth 3 or so metre kerbs that the single door bus uses in that layout

even in a linear bus station unless you have dedicated disembarkation stops you would need to provide a layout souitable for dual door operation

 

[Statto]

Dublin bus did have some dual door Olympians in the early 2000's but yet the Hong Kong style, Volvo tri-axles have only a single entrance / exit door https://www.flickr.com/photos/41294...HXr-8zjfhe-8zj7fk-73DC9v-73DBUR-6RvztP-6Rvz6Z
Back in the early 1970's my local NBC "Yorkshire Woollen" got a number of brand new, dual door Leyland Nationals, then promptly changed their mind and had them converted to single door ! Needless to say, photo's of them in dual door condition are very hard to come by.
I think in cities such as Leeds and Manchester, all buses should be dual door and I don't understand why unnecessary £ pounds are spent making ex London buses into single door. they always look a bit odd somehow besides losing their practical and functional purpose to speed up the flow of passengers.
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The Dewsbury ex London Dart, that was running the free town bus service, seems to have disappeared which is a shame. It still had all the "London" notices and signage inside as well ! https://www.flickr.com/photos/41294...3pM-Jaq3oH-JWCcWq-JYTdte-pgyt9j-pxSxmn-edpDS7

Can't disagree more, outside TFL land dual door buses aren't needed especially at the expense of a couple of more seats, there may be some stops were multiple passenger board & alight at the same stop but mostly passengers will either board at stops with maybe a couple of passengers alighting, then reverse at others.

Queen Square in Liverpool has been mentioned, however passengers are either alighting on incoming services, & boarding on outgoing services so the middle door would be pointless, as is the case with most bus stations.

 

[plarailfan]

I have found this particular debate and discussion to be very interesting indeed.
To my mind, the "short" dual door darts look fantastic and very purposeful and so, up until this topic, my personal opinion was that dual door buses should be operating pretty much everywhere in the UK.
Only London seem interested in having them and so the question in my mind now, is it possible that they could, manage solely with single door vehicles like the rest of the UK, or is London an exception to the norm and they actually, really do need the dual door and "Borismaster" vehicles. I myself, haven't been to London for many years and really haven't got the faintest idea, so would welcome constructive replies, many thanks.

 

[PeterC]

The various ex second hand midi buses that run locally include a high proportion of ex London vehicles with the middle door blocked off. The big advantage is that they seem to keep the same seating capacity (a licensing requirement?) leaving a buggy space as well as a wheelchair space. A great advantage when loaded with elderly ladies with shopping trollies or walking frames on market day.

 

[daikilo]

6Gman: the RELLs/ECW were B53F or B48D whilst the long nationals were B52F or B48D (initial REs were B54F and I think the United AS dual door equivalents were B50D but both had narrow doors).

Whilst the statements about boarding/deboarding are correct, the centre door does help with exit flow, particularly on a heavily loaded bus. This is also true for the staircase location on a dual-door decker where a forward location can hinder boarding initially when deboarding flow from the upper-deck is blocked by standing passengers on the main-deck.

Finally, the category of passenger is also important, as mentioned. On a peak-hour service, standing room can be the optimum for efficient boarding/deboarding whereas during shopping hours that space becomes available to "store" buggies and carts.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Dublin Bus vehicles ordered since 2012 have two doors, however most drivers refuse to use them since a court case which said that they can use them at their discretion depending on if they are safe or not after someone was caught in a double door bus in the 1990s whenthere was no camera and the doors folded up on someone.

The trouble is now because of that ruling the drivers say that they cannot be forced to use their doors at any stop, since at every stop they are using their discretion and they are within their rights to use their discretion to not open the doors at every stop if they so wish or open at every if they so wish, so a lot of people don't even use middle doors since there are various stories of people missing their stops because the doors don't open.''

To get around this the regulator would only release new funds for new vehicles if they came with two doors, two cameras for the middle door with a dedicated monitor in the cab, a mirror which can also be used, a loud alarm for when doors are opening and closing and push out doors rather than folding doors, to prevent people being trapped into them.

Despite this staff mostly refuse to use them, claiming that the only way they will use them will be if they are promised that the company will be held liable for anyone who trips after getting off the bus, which the company canot do because it allows a drive to act in a grossly unsafe manner and not be held responsible. There's also the fight with the regulator since the staff believe that the regulator should not exist since they are more interested in passengers interests than unions and staff.

Dwell times is a huge problem in Dublin, on a 60 minute bus journey up to 15 minutes on a cross city route can be due to this alone.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

6Gman: the RELLs/ECW were B53F or B48D whilst the long nationals were B52F or B48D (initial REs were B54F and I think the United AS dual door equivalents were B50D but both had narrow doors).

The United Auto dual door REs (5001-37) were 45 seaters with the exception of 5036/7; they were a diverted order (think from Northern General) so had 44 seats and four speed boxes. The standard United RELLs were 50 seaters.

Standard Nationals were 52 seats (though many were 49 seats with luggage pen. Dual doors were typically 46 seats I think (e.g. Nottingham, Plymouth) or 44 seats (Bristol, Northern, Crosville) though the prototype EFM35K was indeed a 48 seater.

 

[Statto]

I have found this particular debate and discussion to be very interesting indeed.
To my mind, the "short" dual door darts look fantastic and very purposeful and so, up until this topic, my personal opinion was that dual door buses should be operating pretty much everywhere in the UK.
Only London seem interested in having them and so the question in my mind now, is it possible that they could, manage solely with single door vehicles like the rest of the UK, or is London an exception to the norm and they actually, really do need the dual door and "Borismaster" vehicles. I myself, haven't been to London for many years and really haven't got the faintest idea, so would welcome constructive replies, many thanks.

Dual door buses are not needed outside London, were the demographics of passenger travel are completely different, plus they task the space of a couple of more seats.

 

[sk688]

Well, that's a fine example of how to make a bus service look utterly rubbish, isn't it?

- Blind not properly wound to blank
- Number blind not properly aligned so there is a lit gap
- Livery and seat covers from elsewhere
- A4 destination on which they couldn't even be bothered to write "Dewsbury Free Bus" out in full...
[

And it cost , how much exactly ?

It may not be too good , but its free , so anything goes I guess

 

[Bletchleyite]

And it cost , how much exactly ?

It may not be too good , but its free , so anything goes I guess

I think that's the wrong attitude. The reputational damage this kind of thing does to bus transport as a whole is huge. Even if Stagecoach (say) wouldn't do it in a million years, it just serves to reinforce the "buses are rubbish" view.

OK, reliverying and recovering seats would be costly, so that probably can't be justified if it's in reasonable nick (which it is). But getting a sticky backed plastic decal printed showing "Dewsbury Free Bus via <a few points>" in yellow on black and sticking it over the blind space would cost very little and would massively improve the impression given. Add another one with the bus company's logo to the side for a further improvement.

 

[Gareth]

Dual door buses are not needed outside London, were the demographics of passenger travel are completely different, plus they task the space of a couple of more seats.

But again the million dollar question is: why are they needed in pretty much the rest of the world; even in the smallest of towns and villages?

TheGrandWazoo has had a go at answering this by citing our near unique deregulated system. The thing is, as I mentioned in my opening post, Merseyside PTE did away with dual door buses in the 1970s, long before deregulation. And surely the disadvantages of dual door buses some have put forward here are mostly universal: i.e. having only one door allows more seats in not just the UK but Slovakia, Australia, Japan, Brazil & Nepal too.

 

[GusB]

But again the million dollar question is: why are they needed in pretty much the rest of the world; even in the smallest of towns and villages?

TheGrandWazoo has had a go at answering this by citing our near unique deregulated system. The thing is, as I mentioned in my opening post, Merseyside PTE did away with dual door buses in the 1970s, long before deregulation. And surely the disadvantages of dual door buses some have put forward here are mostly universal: i.e. having only one door allows more seats in not just the UK but Slovakia, Australia, Japan, Brazil & Nepal too.

Isn't it a lot to do with the fact that the British public would rather have a seat, even for short journeys? Our continental friends do have more doors, but they're also more likely to have a high-capacity standee layout. It makes more sense to allow a higher passenger flow at stops when you have more people standing.

Lothian experimented with their Leopard 101 in the 60s, but the vehicle was converted to a standard layout fairly quickly as it didn't find favour with the travelling public at the time.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Preserved_Edinburgh_Corporation_bus_101_(YSG_101),_15_June_2003.jpg

The bus in question has since been preserved and restored to its original layout.

 

[Gareth]

Isn't it a lot to do with the fact that the British public would rather have a seat, even for short journeys?

Are we really that unique in the world though. I'm sure most people would prefer a seat to standing, all other factors being equal.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Are we really that unique in the world though. I'm sure most people would prefer a seat to standing, all other factors being equal.

The usual argument is that in continental Europe, many local buses will feed into a tram/metro/rail station so bus journey length is generally shorter.

This is true in some respects. However, I can point to two instances in Cyprus and Iceland where the standard multi-door Citaro is employed with bone hard seating and there's not a train or tram on either island

 

[507021]

Thanks for the info. Seems pointless having articulated buses if you're going to use them like that. Do you know where they are now, by any chance? They're surely not old enough for the scrap heap.

No problem.

I believe some, possibly most, of the O530Gs were scrapped after withdrawal, but at least a couple were sold on for further use. One of them (6024, BX04 MXZ) is with Reliant Coaches, I'm not sure about the other one (6021, BX04 MXV).

 

[Busaholic]

Nobody has made the point that a centre door makes for much easier wheelchair access, so I'm making it now. Amazing how quickly this can be done on a London bus, in the right circumstances!

 

[daikilo]

Nobody has made the point that a centre door makes for much easier wheelchair access, so I'm making it now. Amazing how quickly this can be done on a London bus, in the right circumstances!

But does it, as the lift is generally the same? What I accept is that to then store the wheel-chair can be easier if the space and tie-down is adjacent to or opposite the centre door as it saves manoeuvres and time.

 

[sk688]

I think that's the wrong attitude. The reputational damage this kind of thing does to bus transport as a whole is huge. Even if Stagecoach (say) wouldn't do it in a million years, it just serves to reinforce the "buses are rubbish" view.

OK, reliverying and recovering seats would be costly, so that probably can't be justified if it's in reasonable nick (which it is). But getting a sticky backed plastic decal printed showing "Dewsbury Free Bus via <a few points>" in yellow on black and sticking it over the blind space would cost very little and would massively improve the impression given. Add another one with the bus company's logo to the side for a further improvement.

Yes , now I do agree , and it is annoying , for me , when I see yet another Arriva Bus , in appaling condition ( not picking on them , just saying as the 258 and 340 buses are usually filthy , despite the 340 having new Streetdecks ) and some of the VDL300 are not blinded for their routes , despite being there since September at least , with paper stuck on to the windscreen

as well as former First London Buses ( usually operated by Metroline, Tower Transit or london general/central) , which are still in purple and turquoise , with VERY faded seats , despite them being gone 4 years ago . The B9TL Gemini 2 , I had on the 483 recently ( 59 plate ) , only attests to this fact .

 

[Robertj21a]

Dual door buses are not needed outside London, were the demographics of passenger travel are completely different, plus they task the space of a couple of more seats.

Not true.

Brighton & Hove put new dual-door double deck buses into service last year, and have ordered more for this. Didn't First also get some last year for Bristol ?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Not true.

Brighton & Hove put new dual-door double deck buses into service last year, and have ordered more for this. Didn't First also get some last year for Bristol ?

Both Bristol and Bath have received them but for very specific services. In Bristol for P&R but subsequent deliveries have been single door for regular city services

 

[Hophead]

Both Bristol and Bath have received them but for very specific services. In Bristol for P&R but subsequent deliveries have been single door for regular city services

As explained yesterday: Brighton & Hove are making a return to dual-door buses for their busiest cross-city services, specifically to deal with extended dwell-times at stops. The 1/1A got theirs last year. This year it'll be the 7 and next year the 49. After that? We'll see, but the 5 group will more than likely follow I'd have thought. All that's in addition to 20 articulated Citaros with a front & rear door setup.

 

[kevjs]

NCT used to have them between Arnold and Nottingham on there artics (later moved to Unilink) - the biggest problem I used to find with the rear exit was that it would often be miles away from the kerb, hence a step down to the road, and a huge step up onto the "accessible" kerb. Plenty of scallies used to sneek on at the back though (plenty also used to hand there tickets out the window to there mates to reuse - no wonder NCT went in for the contactless card in such a big way 17 years ago and about a dozen CCTV cameras on each bus since). With the retirement of the bendies a couple of years ago I believe there are no dual door busses left.

Some of the Preston busses (either Preston Bus, Ribble or Blackpool Transport) used to have centre exits when I was a kid - my parents always used to make us leave at the front as the middle door was always miles from the kerb too.

 

[Bookd]

NCT used to have them between Arnold and Nottingham on there artics (later moved to Unilink) - the biggest problem I used to find with the rear exit was that it would often be miles away from the kerb, hence a step down to the road, and a huge step up onto the "accessible" kerb. Plenty of scallies used to sneek on at the back though (plenty also used to hand there tickets out the window to there mates to reuse - no wonder NCT went in for the contactless card in such a big way 17 years ago and about a dozen CCTV cameras on each bus since). With the retirement of the bendies a couple of years ago I believe there are no dual door busses left.

Some of the Preston busses (either Preston Bus, Ribble or Blackpool Transport) used to have centre exits when I was a kid - my parents always used to make us leave at the front as the middle door was always miles from the kerb too.

The point with London is that buses should stop parallel to the kerb, and close enough for the automatic ramp from the centre door to align with the pavement. Many stop layouts have been redesigned for this purpose, and it normally seems to work although not always possible due to inconsiderate parking. As all buses have cameras for the purpose anyone driving in a bus lane or parking on a bus stop is taking a risk.

 

[Mikey C]

To me, used to London, I find single door double deckers really slow to board and get out of. The front door is a pinch point to start with, as the space between the wheelarch and driver is far smaller than the area around the middle door, and you get movement conflicts at busy intermediate stops.

Most of the former London double deckers tend to go to smaller operators, or for use outside the major cities, the major bus groups tend to separately order their London spec buses from the ones for the other major cities. A Stagecoach Manchester E400 is thus quite different from a Stagecoach London one, longer, possibly lower and with a different staircase

 

[BestWestern]

The point with London is that buses should stop parallel to the kerb, and close enough for the automatic ramp from the centre door to align with the pavement. Many stop layouts have been redesigned for this purpose, and it normally seems to work although not always possible due to inconsiderate parking. As all buses have cameras for the purpose anyone driving in a bus lane or parking on a bus stop is taking a risk.

One of the issues for provincial bus drivers is the rampant spread of the dreaded 'Kassel kerb'; the huge raised efforts seen at bus stops everywhere. Whilst no doubt a noble effort, as a former driver myself I can remember only too well the frustration at highway planners who clearly had failed to inform themselves of the dynamics of a bus pulling into a bus stop, with the unfortunate result of these mountainous kerb edges preventing you from actually getting the door level with the pavement. They work well only in locations where a bus has a long, straight approach to a stop and can pull up square to the kerb - either where the roadside is clear or where an 'island' is provided. They absolutely do not work at locations where it is necessary to come in at an angle, where one needs to swing the bus over the kerb and then straighten up parallel to the pavement edge - pretty much every stop located in a tight bay or layby. The choice then is either risk beaching one's vehicle atop the kerb, or play it safe and stop with a huge gap between bus and passengers, much to their chagrin. Depending on the vehicle, sometimes one would be able to overcome this ridiculous state of affairs by jacking the bus up on the ferrylift, swinging the raised front end over the kerb and back out nice and straight, and then lowering it again. The irony being that exactly the same manoeuvre would be possible, with the same effect, at a standard height kerb in any low floor bus with 'kneeling' suspension, without having to first raise the vehicle.

That's the struggle with only one door to accommodate; navigating the blunders of highways departments with a centre exit would be a challenge indeed!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's interesting that London still has almost no Kassel kerbs - I guess they realise what you say!

 

[gsnedders]

It's interesting that London still has almost no Kassel kerbs - I guess they realise what you say!

I presume that's possible because of the relative newness of buses in London, hence TfL could simply require all buses to have on-board ramps by the relevant date for accessibility, whereas elsewhere councils had to pay the cost to upgrade bus stops to be compliant with existing buses?