Dual Door Buses

[BestWestern]

I presume that's possible because of the relative newness of buses in London, hence TfL could simply require all buses to have on-board ramps by the relevant date for accessibility, whereas elsewhere councils had to pay the cost to upgrade bus stops to be compliant with existing buses?

The bizarre thing is that a raised or Kassel kerb doesn't replace the need for a ramp - you'd need to be very tight against the kerb to get a wheelchair user safely on or off without one! - and the ramp will happily allow access to/from the bus with a standard, non-raised kerb in most cases. And low floor buses kneel to normal kerb height, of course. Which begs the question, what exactly are they for!?

 

[Robertj21a]

As explained yesterday: Brighton & Hove are making a return to dual-door buses for their busiest cross-city services, specifically to deal with extended dwell-times at stops. The 1/1A got theirs last year. This year it'll be the 7 and next year the 49. After that? We'll see, but the 5 group will more than likely follow I'd have thought. All that's in addition to 20 articulated Citaros with a front & rear door setup.

Leicester (Arriva Midlands) still has 3-door Citaro artics running on their 80/A Uni services.

 

[kevjs]

The bizarre thing is that a raised or Kassel kerb doesn't replace the need for a ramp - you'd need to be very tight against the kerb to get a wheelchair user safely on or off without one! - and the ramp will happily allow access to/from the bus with a standard, non-raised kerb in most cases. And low floor buses kneel to normal kerb height, of course. Which begs the question, what exactly are they for!?

In Nottingham the drivers seem to be able to get the (front) door aligned with the pavement - I frequently see wheelchair users getting on and off the buses without needing to use the ramp - when the ramp is needed it requires the driver to get out of his seat, off the bus, pull the ramp down, wait for wheelchair user to get on the bus, put the ramp back, get back on the bus, get back in his seat, depart late. On my route there are a couple of respite centres and hospices and as the accessible buses came in the county council made some minor repositioning to the bus stops - i.e. moving them nearer to the junction so the bus has a long a distance as possible to straighten up.

 

[BestWestern]

In Nottingham the drivers seem to be able to get the (front) door aligned with the pavement - I frequently see wheelchair users getting on and off the buses without needing to use the ramp - when the ramp is needed it requires the driver to get out of his seat, off the bus, pull the ramp down, wait for wheelchair user to get on the bus, put the ramp back, get back on the bus, get back in his seat, depart late. On my route there are a couple of respite centres and hospices and as the accessible buses came in the county council made some minor repositioning to the bus stops - i.e. moving them nearer to the junction so the bus has a long a distance as possible to straighten up.

The problem is, if the chair user gets their wheels caught in the gap and tumbles onto the deck, I'd imagine the driver would end up being deemed liable, having permitted the passenger to board or alight without using the provided kit

 

[AnonymousUser1]

The bizarre thing is that a raised or Kassel kerb doesn't replace the need for a ramp - you'd need to be very tight against the kerb to get a wheelchair user safely on or off without one! - and the ramp will happily allow access to/from the bus with a standard, non-raised kerb in most cases. And low floor buses kneel to normal kerb height, of course. Which begs the question, what exactly are they for!?

really ? or are you assuming all whellechair users are pushed and can't bridge modest gaps

ditto with people who walk but have dificulties or use a walking aid ...

 

[BestWestern]

really ? or are you assuming all whellechair users are pushed and can't bridge modest gaps

ditto with people who walk but have dificulties or use a walking aid ...

As I said previously, getting the gap to a size where a wheeled article could pass safely over it without excessive jolting or risk of becoming trapped or injured, requires a good driver, the right road/pavement/bus stop layout, and even in some cases the right sort of vehicle (if the boarding point is beyond the stop shelter rather then ahead of it, and you have one of the modern generation of buses with enormous nearside mirrors, you'll be coming in some way from the kerb edge to avoid clobbering the shelter or flagpole, for example). You then have the dreaded 'elf n safety to contend with as well. A wheelchair user insists they don't want you to deploy the ramp, exits the bus and becomes caught in the gap. Who do you think will be getting the blame from the management?

A lot of bus driving, as with many other jobs involving duty of care and public liability, is arse covering. It has to be.

 

[AaronR]

Ipswich Buses standardised on dual door buses until the mid 90's, it was just a standard thing and never recall anyone thing to board in the middle or alight at the front of their Dennis Falcons, Leyland Atlanteans and Optare Delta's! Those were the days!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely the whole idea of a proper Kassel kerb is that it's easy to run up against it? You often get the rumble "bumps" so you know you are properly aligned, and if the wheel runs up the kerb it'll be thrown back down again.

How well this works in practice though I have no idea, though, as I've not driven a bus. It does strike me that a bus with the front wheels forward of the cab, e.g. a Solo, will be easier to align as there is no front overhang to clout.

 

[kevjs]

Surely the whole idea of a proper Kassel kerb is that it's easy to run up against it? You often get the rumble "bumps" so you know you are properly aligned, and if the wheel runs up the kerb it'll be thrown back down again.

How well this works in practice though I have no idea, though, as I've not driven a bus. It does strike me that a bus with the front wheels forward of the cab, e.g. a Solo, will be easier to align as there is no front overhang to clout.

That probably helps on the route near me in Nottingham - it's fully Optare Solo SR - the occasional OmniTown spares seem to always stop miles away from the kerb

 

[317 forever]

Dublin Bus vehicles ordered since 2012 have two doors, however most drivers refuse to use them since a court case which said that they can use them at their discretion depending on if they are safe or not after someone was caught in a double door bus in the 1990s whenthere was no camera and the doors folded up on someone.

The trouble is now because of that ruling the drivers say that they cannot be forced to use their doors at any stop, since at every stop they are using their discretion and they are within their rights to use their discretion to not open the doors at every stop if they so wish or open at every if they so wish, so a lot of people don't even use middle doors since there are various stories of people missing their stops because the doors don't open.''

To get around this the regulator would only release new funds for new vehicles if they came with two doors, two cameras for the middle door with a dedicated monitor in the cab, a mirror which can also be used, a loud alarm for when doors are opening and closing and push out doors rather than folding doors, to prevent people being trapped into them.

Despite this staff mostly refuse to use them, claiming that the only way they will use them will be if they are promised that the company will be held liable for anyone who trips after getting off the bus, which the company canot do because it allows a drive to act in a grossly unsafe manner and not be held responsible. There's also the fight with the regulator since the staff believe that the regulator should not exist since they are more interested in passengers interests than unions and staff.

Dwell times is a huge problem in Dublin, on a 60 minute bus journey up to 15 minutes on a cross city route can be due to this alone.

I went back to Dublin just over 6 months ago and noticed those dual-door buses. You are right about drivers opening the exit door at their discretion. On my first such ride the driver only opened the front door when I reached the stop for my B&B. However, when they reached the city centre it was common place for drivers to open the centre doors to enable faster alighting.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Depending on the vehicle, sometimes one would be able to overcome this ridiculous state of affairs by jacking the bus up on the ferrylift, swinging the raised front end over the kerb and back out nice and straight, and then lowering it again.

Can modern low floor buses not sweep over Kassel kerbs without the ferry lift?! I've only driven ancient step entrance things, but never worried about beaching one on any sort of kerb short of a Trief kerb.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can modern low floor buses not sweep over Kassel kerbs without the ferry lift?!

No, the whole point of a Kassel kerb is that it gives level boarding. With level boarding, a bus can't sweep over the kerb because it wouldn't be level if it could!

 

[PermitToTravel]

I don't think they're anywhere near level unless the bus is also kneeled?

 

[BestWestern]

I don't think they're anywhere near level unless the bus is also kneeled?

They will very definitely foul the underside of the vehicle; they are very close to being level with the normal-height entrance step. The kneel facility is intended for 'regular' height kerbs.

 

[chiltern trev]

Lothian got rid of there second doors because of the scams with people claiming the bus driver traped them in the doors and drove away.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Lothian did away with dual doors after an "incident" with an alighting passenger using the centre doorway and the driver driving away and after the insurance claim was resolved the insurance cost or terms.

 

[chiltern trev]

To me, used to London, I find single door double deckers really slow to board and get out of. The front door is a pinch point to start with, as the space between the wheelarch and driver is far smaller than the area around the middle door, and you get movement conflicts at busy intermediate stops.

Most of the former London double deckers tend to go to smaller operators, or for use outside the major cities, the major bus groups tend to separately order their London spec buses from the ones for the other major cities. A Stagecoach Manchester E400 is thus quite different from a Stagecoach London one, longer, possibly lower and with a different staircase

The standard Stagecoach E400 double decker non-London is the longer length (7 window bays), lower height (due to trees and low bridges(some parts of the country) and a shorter staircase. The TfL contracts require a 'straight' staircase which is a longer length and reduces the seating capacity, nominal 2 seats per deck (or maybe not quite). The longer bus length add 8 seats (4 per deck). Sp London has shorter double deckers which is related to TfL contract and/or the shorter length is more maneuverable. The objective outside London seems to be if a single decker is not big enough and you need a double decker then buy the longest (2 axle) and fit the most seats - noted that Gold double deckers seat less. Lothian buy the longest 2 axle (more seats) but go for maximum height (same height as London) (fewer tree problems).

 

[Phil.]

When I lived near Christchurch in the early sixties the trolley buses were dual door. An open one at the back for boarding a la Routemaster and a driver-operated one at the front for disembarking.
So, over forty years ago the trolley crews on the big yellow trolley buses had sorted out the who operates the door thing that the GTR crews have been striking about.
Yes I know it's different, there's lots more doors yadda yadda yadda before you anal types with your nasal voices start on.

 

[gsnedders]

The standard Stagecoach E400 double decker non-London is the longer length (7 window bays), lower height (due to trees and low bridges(some parts of the country) and a shorter staircase. The TfL contracts require a 'straight' staircase which is a longer length and reduces the seating capacity, nominal 2 seats per deck (or maybe not quite). The longer bus length add 8 seats (4 per deck). Sp London has shorter double deckers which is related to TfL contract and/or the shorter length is more maneuverable. The objective outside London seems to be if a single decker is not big enough and you need a double decker then buy the longest (2 axle) and fit the most seats - noted that Gold double deckers seat less. Lothian buy the longest 2 axle (more seats) but go for maximum height (same height as London) (fewer tree problems).

So what's the advantage of 3 axle buses? First Glasgow still have a fair number, at least.

 

[daikilo]

So what's the advantage of 3 axle buses? First Glasgow still have a fair number, at least.

Axle load limit, and marginally wheelbase.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Axle load limit, and marginally wheelbase.

probably more tolerant of uneven loading at high but not full occupancy ...

semi related there was an issue a few years back with ambulances based on the Renault Master to do with load distribution ( a lot of ambulance tend yo pile a heavy kit at the front of the saloon and also kit kept in the over cab lockers and behind the cab seats ) and also the size of fuel tank fitted - meaning the larger tanked vehicles could exacerabte the weight distribution problems ...

 

[radamfi]

I thought double door was unnecessary (and actually undesirable) in Britain? At least that is what most people on this forum say.

*Mod note* This and the following posts were moved from the Brighton and Hove thread

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I thought double door was unnecessary (and actually undesirable) in Britain? At least that is what most people on this forum say.

I think that applies to rural routes (to which I would agree with). For city routes though I think the second door is necessary.

 

[Robertj21a]

I thought double door was unnecessary (and actually undesirable) in Britain? At least that is what most people on this forum say.

Have you seen the volumes in Brighton ? - busiest outside London.

 

[Murray J]

That might also most likely mean the withdrawal of the final Metrobus Omnidekkas still in service: 6938 and 6939. But to avoid going off topic I'll stop right there lol

I think that is the plan unfortunately.

 

[Deerfold]

I thought double door was unnecessary (and actually undesirable) in Britain? At least that is what most people on this forum say.

That's plenty of places double doors don't work well in Britain, usually where the infrastructure isn't designed for it.
I don't think there's a lot about Brighton that stops them doing it.

 

[radamfi]

Have you seen the volumes in Brighton ? - busiest outside London.

I've read this debate on this forum before. It doesn't matter how busy buses are and whether buses get slowed down as a result of using single door. It is better to slow down the bus rather than have two doors.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2020 ==

That's plenty of places double doors don't work well in Britain, usually where the infrastructure isn't designed for it.

Well that sounds like the infrastructure is at fault. Why not fix it if buses need double door due to loadings? Alternatively, loadings may be so poor that double door isn't needed. Either way, there's something wrong.

 

[Robertj21a]

I've read this debate on this forum before. It doesn't matter how busy buses are and whether buses get slowed down as a result of using single door. It is better to slow down the bus rather than have two doors.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2020 ==



Well that sounds like the infrastructure is at fault. Why not fix it if buses need double door due to loadings? Alternatively, loadings may be so poor that double door isn't needed. Either way, there's something wrong.

Why do you believe it is better to slow down the bus rather than have 2 doors? - I assume that you are aware that London is near 100% dual door and that many/most foreign operators use 2, 3 or 4 doors?

 

[radamfi]

Why do you believe it is better to slow down the bus rather than have 2 doors? - I assume that you are aware that London is near 100% dual door and that many/most foreign operators use 2, 3 or 4 doors?

Clearly faster journey times are better. Faster journey times means lower running costs, and therefore more passengers. But the consensus on this forum, including people who sound as if they are in the industry, is that it is better to have fewer passengers and longer journey times.

 

[Daniel740]

Clearly faster journey times are better. Faster journey times means lower running costs, and therefore more passengers. But the consensus on this forum, including people who sound as if they are in the industry, is that it is better to have fewer passengers and longer journey times.

Why on earth would a bus company want to have fewer passengers or longer journey times?

 

[Robertj21a]

Clearly faster journey times are better. Faster journey times means lower running costs, and therefore more passengers. But the consensus on this forum, including people who sound as if they are in the industry, is that it is better to have fewer passengers and longer journey times.

That may apply in many parts of the UK, but this thread relates to Brighton.