Driver Only Operation

[Carlisle]

Regarding DOO on the Southern end of the WCML, I believe the reason it was never implemented was down to a change of stock. Most, if not all, the platform equipment was in place, the signalboxes all had CSR, then the 317s were replaced by 321s which (please correct me if I am wrong) required a different type of DOO monitor.

Yes I'm pretty sure you are totally right about all that , as I can remember an edition of Modern Railways magazine at the time saying almost exactly the same thing

 

[plastictaffy]

Correct, most of the traincrew issues (certainly on the Southern reaches of the WCML) have been driver related. Platform lighting would certainly be an issue - especially at places where there is curvature of the track (Wolverton, Kings Langley, Berko, Leighton to name but a few) as would things like Passcoms, CFA's etc etc. Just imagine, a 12 car sat somewhere like Hemel Hempstead, on the fast, with the slow lines closed, with a passcom activated in the bog of the rear 4, while it's packed full of ****heads. Carnage. It's difficult enough for Guards to get through all the bodies to pop it back out without being called all sorts of rude words. Also, 350's are not equipped with Selective door Opening, so that puts the brakes on calling at places like Apsley and Kings Langley on the fast lines - the platforms there only hold 8 carriages. As with Bushey's Down Fast platform, which is only just long enough for a 4 car!!
Just to clarify to a previous poster, ALL LM services currently carry Guards, including the branch lines. The only services that are worked on a DOO basis are those that convey ECS to places like Camden. Even when 313's worked the DC for Silverlink, they had Guards.
The current rolling stock (mainly 350's, as most people know) are not designed for DOO, although there are door controls for both sides of the train on the Driver's desk. 321's also have these controls on the desk.
I've heard stories that some services were worked DOO on a trial basis between Northampton and Milton Keynes, but too many drivers refused to take the trains without Gards.

 

[Carlisle]

The DC line went DOO under BR (NSE) somewhere around 1990 -91 with class 313s therefore never used guards during the Silverlink era as far as I know

 

[plastictaffy]

It's possible I am wrong, but some of the guards at my place used to sign 313's along there.

 

[455driver]

I've heard stories that some services were worked DOO on a trial basis between Northampton and Milton Keynes, but too many drivers refused to take the trains without Gards.

Good on those that refused and shame on those that worked them !

 

[TheKnightWho]

Good on those that refused and shame on those that worked them !

So, at the risk of being called a troll, why is it so important to have guards (other than to keep their jobs)?

The railway either exists as a public service or to make money, depending on your political leaning. It doesn't exist primarily to employ people...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

So, at the risk of being called a troll, why is it so important to have guards (other than to keep their jobs)?

The railway either exists as a public service or to make money, depending on your political leaning. It doesn't exist primarily to employ people...

Safety. Up here in Northern land we still have semaphore signals and nrn (soon to be replaced by gsm-r) to upgrade the Network up here to become DOO-P would literally cost Billions and would never recoup the cost back in savings. In 10 years I have carried out evacuations, helped save peoples lives, helped countless passengers and collected hundreds of thousands in revenue.

Cameras and mirrors will never replace a well trained guard. Even in DOO land most drivers would prefer guards as the people who took the few extra quid have mainly retired and left their newer (or younger) colleagues to fend for themselves.

 

[scotsman]

Do you mean rooster?

Or am I missing something?
probably am!

Edinburgh parlence for 'utter fool'

 

[455driver]

So, at the risk of being called a troll, why is it so important to have guards (other than to keep their jobs)?

The railway either exists as a public service or to make money, depending on your political leaning. It doesn't exist primarily to employ people...

A simple question for you-
Do you want a safe way of running trains or do you want the safest way of running trains?

A driver only train has exactly the same potential for things to go wrong than a driver/guard operated train but the D/G operated train has a better chance of dealing with that problem than a DO train.

I think we have been rather lucky where drivers being incapacited on a DOO train in the past but one day that luck will run out.
Remember that LM driver who had a heart attack but managed to get the train to a major station (Crewe?) where he was met by the Ambulance service?
What had happened if tbhe driver had collapsed and not managed to get the train to Crewe, do you think all the passengers would just in the middle of nowhere with no announcements (signallers can make announcements on the train but would the passengers listen?) while the recovery was sorted out, or do you think that it would be a case of "I am not sitting here all day" so the passengers decide to detrain themselves on the WCML with nobody there to soer out the line blockages etc? Be honest!

DOO is safe, crew working is safer!

 

[Tomnick]

It's not just safety either - as a passenger, I'd much rather have a guaranteed member of staff in addition to the driver (incidentally, the minority of guards who never venture from the back cab are doing the rest of their grade a great disservice!) to provide a visible presence, assist passengers and of course look after revenue more consistently than occasional RPIs ever could. It's recently been suggested, on here, that the combination of loss of revenue and the cost of delays caused by increased dwell time (when there's no-one to hurry passengers along!) would probably outweigh the savings from DOO anyway.

 

[transmanche]

So, at the risk of being called a troll, why is it so important to have guards (other than to keep their jobs)?

I find this an interesting topic; because as a mere passenger I've never actually felt unsafe on a DOO service. But the signals being given out by the rail unions is somewhat mixed.

Last summer, TfL opted for the removal of guards from NLL & WLL services by converting them to DOO. It was described by the RMT as a "lethal proposal" and that the guards were "essential". They also warned that "millions of passengers are to be put at risk" and that removing guards was an "attack on safety", although identical trains operate in DOO-mode on the ELL. So either DOO is safe, or unsafe. You'd think the RMT clearly believed that it's unsafe when they said that the plans would be met with the "fiercest possible resistance".

Yet just a few months later, they seemed quite happy with a guarantee of no compulsory redundancies and protecting the redeployed guards' salaries.

But what about the "millions of passengers put at risk"? Suddenly the RMT doesn't appear to be bothered about them at all.

Hmmm.... :roll:

 

[plastictaffy]

It's not just safety either - as a passenger, I'd much rather have a guaranteed member of staff in addition to the driver (incidentally, the minority of guards who never venture from the back cab are doing the rest of their grade a great disservice!) to provide a visible presence, assist passengers and of course look after revenue more consistently than occasional RPIs ever could. It's recently been suggested, on here, that the combination of loss of revenue and the cost of delays caused by increased dwell time (when there's no-one to hurry passengers along!) would probably outweigh the savings from DOO anyway.

Hear hear!!!! Surveys have proved that the passengers like to see a face on the train for advice, train times, or just to pass the time of day with. Also, it has been proved that on lines that have DOO, there are more occasions of assault and general disorder on trains.
Of course, LM's Guards will have to work a lot harder in the near future, as LM have taken it upon themselves to threaten 231 RPI's with their jobs!! As we speak, they are on 45 days consultation!!!! Then the pressure will be on us to deliver the revenue AND the safe working of the train!!!
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Hence why I was asking about DOO being instigated. I don't think it will be long until we're trained in PF, and the driver takes full responsibility for the safe working of the train. Basically, I'm worried for my job!!!
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The RMT is a bit of a dirty word at my depot at the moment. Seriously contemplating cancelling my membership, due to the contemptuous way the Company Council have acted towards our new pay "deal". But that's another story.

 

[jopsuk]

I find this an interesting topic; because as a mere passenger I've never actually felt unsafe on a DOO service. But the signals being given out by the rail unions is somewhat mixed.

Instinctively, there's part of me would prefer a guard to be there. But like you, I've never felt unsafe on DOO, and it is used on with long trains on very busy services in the London commuter area. Indeed, the last passenger-train interface fatality to hit the headlines tragically occurred on a guard operated service- the drunk that went under a Merseyrail train. This though I'm more than willing to chalk up to being exceptional, and not at all a reflection upo guards as a whole.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Hear hear!!!! Surveys have proved that the passengers like to see a face on the train for advice, train times, or just to pass the time of day with. Also, it has been proved that on lines that have DOO, there are more occasions of assault and general disorder on trains.
Of course, LM's Guards will have to work a lot harder in the near future, as LM have taken it upon themselves to threaten 231 RPI's with their jobs!! As we speak, they are on 45 days consultation!!!! Then the pressure will be on us to deliver the revenue AND the safe working of the train!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hence why I was asking about DOO being instigated. I don't think it will be long until we're trained in PF, and the driver takes full responsibility for the safe working of the train. Basically, I'm worried for my job!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The RMT is a bit of a dirty word at my depot at the moment. Seriously contemplating cancelling my membership, due to the contemptuous way the Company Council have acted towards our new pay "deal". But that's another story.

At the risk of definitely being called a troll, does that mean a service with a guard but automatically driven would be desirable when technology's a bit more up to that sort of thing..?

 

[Carlisle]

At the risk of definitely being called a troll, does that mean a service with a guard but automatically driven would be desirable when technology's a bit more up to that sort of thing..?

I think that's been debated at length in the recent past on this forum with the conclusion being that driverless automatic technology on high speed main lines is going to be horrendously expensive and /or take ages yet to develop to workable standards (probably after many of us are dead and buried I think)

 

[plastictaffy]

At the risk of definitely being called a troll, does that mean a service with a guard but automatically driven would be desirable when technology's a bit more up to that sort of thing..?

Quite possibly, yes. However, there are no automatically driven main line trains anywhere in the world as of yet. Computers could only run the trains when things run smoothly. As soon as you get a delay, or you need to implement total block working, or wrong line working, the computers will fall down.
Let me give you an example.
A few months ago, a Southern train broke down at Harrow and Wealdstone, and we came to a stand about three miles past Wembley Central. The signaller had managed to route the services behind us out onto the Fast Lines, but there was us, another LM service in front of us, and a freight in front of that before the failed unit. The Signaller requested the driver to run bang road back to North Wembley Junction to be crossed over, kick all the punters off there and run empties back to Euston, for me and the driver to pick up our diagrams there. Now, the computers couldn't do that, I'm fairly certain. There will always need to be at least one (preferably two, for obvious reasons) members of staff on board trains.

Re the James Street incident - I reckon that was an unsafe conviction. On another day, with another judge, that Guard would never have gone to prison.

 

[TEW]

It's recently been suggested, on here, that the combination of loss of revenue and the cost of delays caused by increased dwell time (when there's no-one to hurry passengers along!) would probably outweigh the savings from DOO anyway.

I'd suggest that with our current franchising system implementing DOO is even more unlikely on financial grounds. Any TOC trying to implement a DOO scheme would have all the costs of implementing the scheme but when finally up and running they wouldn't enjoy any cost savings for long before their franchise ran out, and potentially someone else took over. It's not surprising that there has been very little expansion of DOO since privatisation. I wonder where we'd be if we still had NSE, I doubt you'd see a member of staff anywhere on a train in or around London apart from Intercity routes.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd suggest that with our current franchising system implementing DOO is even more unlikely on financial grounds. Any TOC trying to implement a DOO scheme would have all the costs of implementing the scheme but when finally up and running they wouldn't enjoy any cost savings for long before their franchise ran out

I wouldn't bet on that. Given the McNulty report, and the current Governement, it is scarcely conceivable that some of the new franchises aren't requested to implement new DOO schemes. And some DOO projects have payback measured in months rather than years.

 

[plastictaffy]

See, I've heard that the new franchise holder of what, at the moment is the LM franchise, will be required to introduce DOO as one of their franchise commitments, but I can't find any proof of that.

 

[Manchester77]

Safety. Up here in Northern land we still have semaphore signals and nrn (soon to be replaced by gsm-r) to upgrade the Network up here to become DOO-P would literally cost Billions and would never recoup the cost back in savings. In 10 years I have carried out evacuations, helped save peoples lives, helped countless passengers and collected hundreds of thousands in revenue.

For every guard like you here in northern land theres probably another who won't go through the train selling tickets, making announcements etc. and will only leave their cab to perform station duties. I wouldn't call my early morning service overcrowded while I'm onboard so the guard could get through at least half the train (the 142+142/142+15X combo having no corridor connections) yet too often they sit in the rear cab reading the newspaper. I often wonder how many people my train think that its a DOO service when the guard doesn't make much / if any presence. By no means am I saying that we should do away with guards or anything but when possible the guard should make themselves known to the public especially when trains are calling at stations with no ticket buying facilities. I'd like to say I am not calling guards lazy in any way shape or form and that guards are a very important thing to have on the railways. Mirrors and cameras can be obstructed, distorted or defective however a pair of human eyes can't really be defective and display no image.

 

[plastictaffy]

I'd quite like to hear from a driver that already operates trains on a DOO basis. Maybe 455driver could shed some light??

 

[455driver]

Northern guards must remain in the rear unit at all times so if you are in the front unit you wont see them.

Oh its Northerns rules not the guards.
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I'd quite like to hear from a driver that already operates trains on a DOO basis. Maybe 455driver could shed some light??

I dont operate DOO and have no desire to.

 

[TEW]

I wouldn't bet on that. Given the McNulty report, and the current Governement, it is scarcely conceivable that some of the new franchises aren't requested to implement new DOO schemes. And some DOO projects have payback measured in months rather than years.

It's obviously different if DOO implementation is required as part of the franchise but there has been very little DOO expansion of TOC's own backs. The payback would depend on how much equipment needs installing or upgrading to allow for DOO. LO's expansion of DOO would have been very cheap as the 378s already had the necessary in cab monitors.

 

[plastictaffy]

I dont operate DOO and have no desire to.

You mean to tell me that SWT have Guards?? I've never seen one on any of their trains!! Sorry, my bad. Can you enlighten us as to why you wouldn't want to, though??
I mean, apart from the obvious of having to buy your own cuppa at every terminus station.

 

[TEW]

I'm surprised you've never seen a guard on SWT. Nearly every journey they make regular announcement letting people know they're on board and where to find them if you need any help.

 

[455driver]

You mean to tell me that SWT have Guards?? I've never seen one on any of their trains!! Sorry, my bad. Can you enlighten us as to why you wouldn't want to, though??
I mean, apart from the obvious of having to buy your own cuppa at every terminus station.

1/ I normally buy the cuppas.
2/ On the rare occasion the train doesnt want to play I prefer to get on with fixing it rather than spend an inordinate amount of time explaining to the passengers what is going to happen.
3/ If I keel over in the cab I want to know there is somebody on hand to help me and to get assistance to me quickly.
4/ If the train needs to be evacuated then 2 people are better than one, this point is rather mute as the <deleted> in control think their arses will explode into flames if they authorise a controlled evacuation. they much prefer passengers to do it themselves after being stuck on a train for 3 hours!

Will that do for starters.
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I'm surprised you've never seen a guard on SWT. Nearly every journey they make regular announcement letting people know they're on board and where to find them if you need any help.

i get the feeling he sits there with his earphones in reading the Metro or is part of the rush hour where it is impossible for the guard to get through anyway.

At our depot we have 2 (out of about 60) who wont walk the train, all the others do when it is practical to.

 

[plastictaffy]

I'm surprised you've never seen a guard on SWT. Nearly every journey they make regular announcement letting people know they're on board and where to find them if you need any help.

In fairness, the only journey I tend to do with SWT is Waterloo-Surbiton or Chessington South.

455driver - thanks. I know what you mean about Control - sounds quite similar to ours!!!!
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At our depot we have 2 (out of about 60) who wont walk the train, all the others do when it is practical to.

It's about the same at my place. I know of three that simply will not walk trains. Nothing ever gets said though. But then, one of them is the RMT branch chairman,:roll: and the other has been on the railways since the year dot. And the other is off sick more than he's not, and says that if he does walk trains, he risks injuring himself. This is the same bloke that required an ambulance the other week, as he "pulled a muscle stepping onto the platform". I sh** you not. Mind, we also have another guy that doesn't work trains at all, as he's "scared of the ticket machine coz he was assaulted last time he took one out" - his words not mine. The shirker is still alive and well at my depot!!!!! Pleased to say that I love my job, and I love walking through, talking to people, and listening to the excuses from the scrotes, and then chucking off aforementioned scrotes!! "I'm only going to Watford, bruv, don't be a prick......."

 

[Carlisle]

See, I've heard that the new franchise holder of what, at the moment is the LM franchise, will be required to introduce DOO as one of their franchise commitments, but I can't find any proof of that.

Interesting , during the privatisation era the only franchise I can ever remember that publicly made DOO an actual franchise commitment from the outset was the aborted LTS Rail in about 1995

 

[plastictaffy]

It's something I heard this week about something to do with a franchise extension, and the year 2019........

 

[Manchester77]

Northern guards must remain in the rear unit at all times so if you are in the front unit you wont see them.

Oh its Northerns rules not the guards.
.

I try to get in the rear half of the train (nearer station exit) and often guards unfortunately do not go through the train.